New York 195: Adventure Mafia - Game over!

[Ircher]

Ok, but how do you know it isn't simply a townie who expresses caution around someone they think is tricky to read (for meta reasons obviously).

[drmyshottyizsik]

Are you saying that HA set that up so that if Titus later attempts to push for the actual scum, HA can discredit it by referencing his read? Interesting.

exactly.

[Expedience]

[dramatic yet unsuitable v]projectmatt[/dramatic yet unsuitable v]

[Egg]

Page 41:
Titus, not sure I see where you are coming from in your questioning of zakk. Why would it be townier for him to shop a wagon on Copper because you say it has more support as opposed to ETL who you say you and a few others would support at the time? What is the difference? If he's town, shouldn't it basically be whichever he finds scummier?

Killthestory said we should lynch him. I agree.

[Persivul]

I wouldn't mind lynching ETL or Nosferatu.

[Nosferatu]

can someone direct me to a post or posts that give me a general reason why I should vote TBG?

Seth wagon is looking like it's probably not going to go through and day is ending soon.

[Ircher]

@ProjectMatt - Why are your reads so bad? HA's wall had reasoning. Why do you think HA's readwall lacks reasoning, but TBG has depth?

TBG handled the pressure on him extremely well? Are we even reading the same thread? 1178 is a pile of hypocritical garbage.

Anen's behavior is fine and I even referenced a game to compare to.

Nahdia read is right for wrong reasons.

@Egg, Talk to me when you are done.

@Ircher, I think Shotty spams back there to drown out the case on TBG.

@Ircher, Come on answer me as to why that post "feels genuine"? Look at the motivations at the time it as posting.

To understand that post, you also have to look back at his vote on HA. As the wagon on him forms, TBG is nowhere to be seen. When he comes back, he sheeps a case saying it is good. (The case isn't good but we'll be giving that the benefit of the doubt for this argument.) He's saying he doesn't go ISOing weaker players. He's framing the argument as unreasonable rather than addressing the concerns. My concern is that his "reads" were not there and made no sense. That's precisely what he voted HA for. Yet, he doesn't actually defend or actually give any sort of read.

He then later OMGUSes Seth for sheeping a case onto his wagon when Seth was wagoned. That's exactly what TBG did. The hypocricsy there isn't genuine at all.

The latter paragraph TBG is deliberately excusing himself from ever reading Kill the story. If I felt a player was obfuscating their read deliberately, my first thought is why.

@Ircher - Let's walk this through Ircher. That post is scum posting. Scum love to hedge and hawww. Second, everyone is biased. We all have cognitive biases. The key to scumhunting from my point of view is finding out if these biases make sense and tracking a train of thought because I don't do as well with emotionally reading players.

Paragraph 1 - "Ircher or Shotty is scum. There's something "weird" between them." He's doubtcasting your slot here while leaving open a bus on Shotty. That's why these dual reads "there's something off here" without doing anything to resolve them are 100% pro scum.
Paragraph 2 - "I don't want to push Titus, but I'd gladly jump on her if she gained momentum." It's consistent. He's practically yelling at us that he'll never make a decision or push anything. He'll just have his "gut" reads and do nothing considering gut can't really be proven false unless just ridiculous to have pairings together.
Paragraph 3 - He's playing semantics here at best, but he's painting attempts at town cohesion scummy but lurking as a protown manuever.
Paragraph 4 - More doubtcasting Ircher and dismissing common sense townpoints as wifom.

If someone tells you at the outset that they have zero desire to push lynches, just sets up categories for save voting, and discourages townreads; quite often, that player is scum.

[Ircher]

Goto the post to see context

[Killthestory]

let me be useless a little while longrr

[Ircher]

let me be useless a little while longrr

Only if you are super useful D2 and beyond

[Titus]

Are you saying that HA set that up so that if Titus later attempts to push for the actual scum, HA can discredit it by referencing his read? Interesting.

exactly.

No. It's not. This read is expressing that I am just good at scum inarticulately. If I felt it left HA open to doubtcast me, I would say so. Second, HA is not voting TBG. He's not using it to "suddenly" come to a conclusion, but weighing that as a factor with the overall context. Third, even if this argument is right (it's not), the conclusion is that HA would be defending his buddy and with deadline approaching you should vote TBG.

[Titus]

I wouldn't mind lynching ETL or Nosferatu.

Yeah, where did this sudden desire to lynch ETL come from?

[Titus]

Ok, but how do you know it isn't simply a townie who expresses caution around someone they think is tricky to read (for meta reasons obviously).

Poor phrasing ("how do you know" inadvertently implies knowledge or that your reads are better), but right sentinment and approach on asking why. Do not get trapped in CONFBIAS though.

[zakk]

Titus I kinda think you are scum. But I kinda think you are town. Which is it? And if town, why do you seem so scummy?

[Titus]

Why are you not responding about the points I laid out on TBG Zakk and instead doing pointless thought exercises?

[zakk]

Because I know i'm not scum, and I don't think he is either, and responding to your point is a waste of my time. I'm only interested in whether or not you are scum

Do you have a reason to avoid my question?

[Titus]

@Zakk, then why not state why you feel that way. Tbg is the largest wagon. You're plugging your ears and saying he's town without reason or engaging mine. Given the deadline, engaging why TBG is town or scum is hardly a "waste of time". Given the amount of likely vla town at deadline, the town needs to coalesce fast.

Second, your question is pointless. Even if we assume the thought is genuine (it's not), I am not going to know why you feel the way you do. It's a pointless exercise trying to paint me as scummy or put me on the defensive.

[copper223]

Ok for those that don't think TGB is scum, we need a viable alternative.

I have a town read on every player on the Aneninen wagon so if I don't come up with anything better after reviewing tomorrow this is where I'll vote.

[zakk]

Amen wagon is shite, have u seen the heur wagon? It's dope

[copper223]

@Zakk
The only thing it has going for it is that despite his terrible posting, heur. isn't getting hard wagoned, but that could also be because scum has already committed elsewhere, on Ircher if Titus is on the level and right, on TGB if she is wrong or scum.

I just finished a game with him and my read is he is once again newbie town here.

[Ircher]

@Zakk
The only thing it has going for it is that despite his terrible posting, heur. isn't getting hard wagoned, but that could also be because scum has already committed elsewhere, on Ircher if Titus is on the level and right, on TGB if she is wrong or scum.

I just finished a game with him and my read is he is once again newbie town here.

This ^ is my read on Heur fyi.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Definitely not a fan of Titus's deadline fearmongering to try and strongarm my wagon. We have over half a week left (4 days + some hours), there's no need to rush to wagon anybody.

[Ircher]

Definitely not a fan of Titus's deadline fearmongering to try and strongarm my wagon. We have over half a week left (4 days + some hours), there's no need to rush to wagon anybody.

4 days is not a lot of time... Especially when you are V/LA and a lot of other people are during that timeframe.

[Egg]

Page 42:
Ok, I can't read Nahdia worth shit, so I'll wait for associative tells later on.

Zakk saying he doesn't care about looking town is exactly why he's town. In his scum game, he didn't immediately explain a read because he got called scummy for explaining reads before that. It was one of the reasons I suspected him there. Here, he's doing the exact opposite.

Page 43:
Brawl, which of Nahdia's posts did you think were "really good"? I agree with the rest of the reads you posted here, but I don't understand this one.

Drmy, I'm still pretty convinced you are town, but why aren't you interested in ISOing Seth and Heur or something to get a better read considering their wagons took off.

Hmm. Ircher's reads list actually looks pretty good... Not in the sense that I agree with everything. More like I can follow why he'd believe the things he says.

Titus, why do you have no problem with Ircher not blindly trusting you when you didn't like me saying basically the same thing.

Ircher's "I'll reconsider my read on you when you stop tunneling" comment feels the same as Killthestory's "I'll play when I'm townread". I don't like it.

Page 44:
Seth, first of all my issue with your cythefly vote and unvote is the timing. It was convenient to vote him when you didn. When you unvoted, it no longer was. Second of all, if we never lynched new players, new scum would always win so that's bullshit. Third of all, new players can be easier to read because they have more tells that they aren't aware of yet. I don't like how much you are trying to distance yourself from that vote. It's like you know how scummy it was.

Anen, I get the opposite conclusion about Brawl. The fact that he decided to look up whether it's considered normal to have two scum teams shows that he doesn't have inside knowledge on whether we're dealing with that or not. I also got the opposite impression on something Nahdia said but don't care to discuss that much.

Seth's crap about Anen is unnecessary. Must be pissed off about being scumread.

Page 45:
Titus, I realize your ETL read changed. But you were scumreading her and I was saying I understood why but disagreed. I'm fully aware your read has changed (or maybe "softened" is a better word). And I don't think you are going to sell me on Brawl by the way. I don't see anything "hollow" about his posts. I don't even know what you think he's ignored. I don't care that he has gut reads and not following up well could be a result of this being a large game (even I can't keep up). His reads make perfect sense to me. I don't care that he'd been parked on Ircher (I have as well). I think the Heur vote is fine. And I don't care that he isn't discussing his wagon because I'd prefer he scumhunt as opposed to go all "my wagon is obvscum".

Lowell, why doesn't Ircher's "stop deathtunneling me" read as trying to get out of the flame war to you?

Copper, putting yourself in a reads list isn't scummy. Ircher has done plenty of scummy things but that wasn't one of them and the readslist as a whole was probably his towniest post of the game. I've put myself in readslists as both alignments tons of times. It's not about a certain motivation. It's just...something that gets done. I see your point about some of his reads being because of the players' reads on him though.

Nahdia's Anen vote is pretty dumb.

Too bad my battery is about to die. Was hoping to finish.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Page 42:
Ok, I can't read Nahdia worth shit, so I'll wait for associative tells later on.

Zakk saying he doesn't care about looking town is exactly why he's town. In his scum game, he didn't immediately explain a read because he got called scummy for explaining reads before that. It was one of the reasons I suspected him there. Here, he's doing the exact opposite.

Page 43:
Brawl, which of Nahdia's posts did you think were "really good"? I agree with the rest of the reads you posted here, but I don't understand this one.

Drmy, I'm still pretty convinced you are town, but why aren't you interested in ISOing Seth and Heur or something to get a better read considering their wagons took off.

Hmm. Ircher's reads list actually looks pretty good... Not in the sense that I agree with everything. More like I can follow why he'd believe the things he says.

Titus, why do you have no problem with Ircher not blindly trusting you when you didn't like me saying basically the same thing.

Ircher's "I'll reconsider my read on you when you stop tunneling" comment feels the same as Killthestory's "I'll play when I'm townread". I don't like it.

Page 44:
Seth, first of all my issue with your cythefly vote and unvote is the timing. It was convenient to vote him when you didn. When you unvoted, it no longer was. Second of all, if we never lynched new players, new scum would always win so that's bullshit. Third of all, new players can be easier to read because they have more tells that they aren't aware of yet. I don't like how much you are trying to distance yourself from that vote. It's like you know how scummy it was.

Anen, I get the opposite conclusion about Brawl. The fact that he decided to look up whether it's considered normal to have two scum teams shows that he doesn't have inside knowledge on whether we're dealing with that or not. I also got the opposite impression on something Nahdia said but don't care to discuss that much.

Seth's crap about Anen is unnecessary. Must be pissed off about being scumread.

Page 45:
Titus, I realize your ETL read changed. But you were scumreading her and I was saying I understood why but disagreed. I'm fully aware your read has changed (or maybe "softened" is a better word). And I don't think you are going to sell me on Brawl by the way. I don't see anything "hollow" about his posts. I don't even know what you think he's ignored. I don't care that he has gut reads and not following up well could be a result of this being a large game (even I can't keep up). His reads make perfect sense to me. I don't care that he'd been parked on Ircher (I have as well). I think the Heur vote is fine. And I don't care that he isn't discussing his wagon because I'd prefer he scumhunt as opposed to go all "my wagon is obvscum".

Lowell, why doesn't Ircher's "stop deathtunneling me" read as trying to get out of the flame war to you?

Copper, putting yourself in a reads list isn't scummy. Ircher has done plenty of scummy things but that wasn't one of them and the readslist as a whole was probably his towniest post of the game. I've put myself in readslists as both alignments tons of times. It's not about a certain motivation. It's just...something that gets done. I see your point about some of his reads being because of the players' reads on him though.

Nahdia's Anen vote is pretty dumb.

Too bad my battery is about to die. Was hoping to finish.

I did, I don't like seth much, but I think they are just awful.