Hectic has clearly been won over by recurring pats and belly rubs from Chara. There were some monsters in the underground who had given Hectic a headpat here and there, but he had not really experienced a human before, and humans interact with dogs in their own special way. Monsters would often just ask Hectic why he hasn't enlisted or something, treating him like an adult.
"YIP! YIP!"
Hectic suddenly began digging, right in the front yard. He dug quickly and furiously. A steady spray of earth was flung and piled up behind him. It formed a mountain as Hectic somehow dug many, many times his body size.
When he was finished, he'd dug out a rectangular area a quarter of the size of the entire Dreemur home. It included a series of indents on one wall that formed a ladder. There was also an undug shape in the earth much like a bed, with length similar to Chara's height and a raised "pillow" with a comfy indentation shaped similar to one of Sans's lamps.
"YIP!"
The indented wall wasn't really practical for Hectic to exit his development. Instead, the sheer ecstasy of having finished caused him to float upwards and out of the hole, landing amongst the other youngsters again with muddy feet, where he licked Chara's ankles.
With nine alive, it takes five to make a decision. (expired on 2020-02-14 20:00:00). Replacement Key
In post 1238, Amrun wrote:I understand the thought process behind TRing Fark for this, I just think there’s quite a number of people who would do this as scum, me included.
This is the correct level of paranoia to have around me. Or anyone, really, unless you have such strong meta experience with a player that you can bypass standard ways of hunting. There are people with near unlimited scumranges. Townreading said people under certain circumstances is ok, but those reads should never be 100% strength level in one sense or the other. I think this also applies to Hectic, or Bingle for that matter. Or Amrun herself.
I do think Amrun has done some things that are quite hard to fake as scum though, more so than almi/bingle. In that 1v1 i would side with Amrun, but then again i sided with Amrun even when she was 1v1ing sujimichi.
@Amrun, new question for you: besides Almidia being your highest scumread and having associative equity with me, what kind of info would you expect to learn from either flip on that slot? From post 1108 it seems that a flip there would get you significantly closer to a gamesolve even without a VCA available so far - why?
I think if alimdia is not scum, psyche probably is. And if alimdia IS scum, psyche probably isn’t. It really affects my view of the gamestate.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:30 am
by Psyche
thats weird
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:29 am
by Farkran
In post 1252, Amrun wrote:I think if alimdia is not scum, psyche probably is. And if alimdia IS scum, psyche probably isn’t. It really affects my view of the gamestate.
Hmmm... i agree with the theory, but i would lynch psyche before bingle at this point, and overall it seems a weak motive to push, although it makes sense if you townlean everyone else. Do you? Besides, if i am immensely wrong on my solve, i'd think Nacho/Psyche could be a valid alternative. I really dislike Psyche's recent posting, and his progression towards Nacho is... not good.
Spoiler: Psyche on Nacho
In post 610, Psyche wrote:At very least, I'm sympathetic w/ suspicion against nacho. I think it's because I've picked up kinda high expectations for his townplay, and he doesn't seem to really be meeting them here. But that's so weak! I'm totally aware that it's so weak!
I don't like Hectic's or Sherlock's schtick. They're both quite distracting. I disagree w/ Nacho's mentioned rationale re:Hectic asserting the towniness of loose/chilled-out play. My experience is that it's way easier to relax in a game thread w/o the burden of having no idea who scum is. There's so much less responsibility for what you say in a situation like that - all sorts of bullshit becomes game!
Do agree though that Sujimishi's gameplay here is a lot different from his in micro 917. In general, Hectic's posts are reasonably substantive and don't seem very disingenuous. I guess in the end I do think the Spare call has some ground? Yeah, I'm actually willing to enthusiastically roll with that.
Ok, I feel better. I'm starting to get opinions. I'd rather we lynch people. But finding town can be so much easier than deciding someone's scum, in my experience. Ugh.
Say you need to pick exactly one scum in {nacho, amrun, chara and suji}. Who do you pick and why?
I'm not currently interested in theories where there are no scum or more than one scum among those, the premise is that there is exactly one. Let's try it. It's going to be useful.
@Replica, Sherlock, Psyche, can you answer this for me? I'll ask Toriel to prepare cookies if you do
probably amrun. chara is null too though. i just haven't found any towntells in two relatively long isos.
I'd bet the whole game on this entire group being town. And god surely hates someone in the scumteam if the IC isn't among these. I simply do not need any scumreads this game and don't care if you don't like it. Let's just end this and go next.
In post 736, Psyche wrote:And then my nacho read has a similar basis to the sherlock read - he did a thing i doubt scum can organize the cognitive resources to do - but is weaker by comparison. I'd hope we could spare my other reads and even myself before committing to sparing nacho. We'll have many more posts, many more tells by then. But I'd still bet the game now that he's town, and all these reads are town. (It's a game - it's not like I'm betting a lot!)
In post 742, Psyche wrote:replica's honestly a blur to me so many of you are just blurs how do people play this damned game
ok lemme try:
i think there's good evidence in his iso of trying, of reaching for and game-advancing reads and ways to convince people of those things. but i give a bit more credence to what i perceive as successes at that - in my experience it's kind of easy as scum to fake trying, after all (you can get through a whole game as scum by performing "unsucessful trying" - it conveys a town motive without needlessly preventing mislynches). i don't see any grand successes that scum only have weak reasons to pursue (and should find difficulty
cognitively
at achieving anyway), so i don't have any strong townread.
Billy Pilgrim WHO?
Chemist1422 ???
SherlockHolmes TOWN
alimdia HMM
Pine TOWN
ok i'm unsubtly asking for an updated playerlist
In post 982, Psyche wrote:i remember hearing some time ago that bert
[nacho -ndr]
gets really bored and disengaged as scum. is that a false memory?
In post 1055, Psyche wrote:would love to throw more red meat into the game but im wary of getting too engaged again and neglecting my job
i'm liking replica more for town these days. suppose it's smarter to save attempts at any detailed towncases for after scum takes a kill, though, right?
rather wary of chemist but if we had to lynch today he wouldn't be a very likely target at all
hectic still seems a fine spare. people are insisting that he's not, but all those cases suck. i could try harder to push the read, but it is pretty early in the day.
alimdia's slot is the closest thing to a scumread ive had in years. the iso genuinely reads as someone just going through the motions of scumhunting. some people are just disengaged, sure, but for a solid portion of the game alimdia more-or-less wasn't: they were engaged but producing shit anyway. it makes me feel better about it that the replacement isn't pinging very differently, though of course he's more outwardly shit; even that only looks like a "too scum" strategy to me. i'd be willing to lynch it just to get quicker feedback on whether i have any scumsense or not. there's a romance to a 4 spare win, but it'd be fun to win by the end of D3 too, yeah?
In post 106, Nachomamma8 wrote:I feel surprisingly good about Hectic being town, considering it being page 5 and all.
There's a gorgeous feel good concoction brewing over there - a healthy mix of a strong, confident tone and a gimmick that I believe scum would be less comfortable implementing than town. The combination of both gives a loose cannon feel which I feel is significantly less likely coming from scum - as scum, you are forced to contend with your partners whispering in your ear and also silently sort of judging you whenever you are doing something crazy as Hectic is doing now whereas as town the people who lynch you are technically wrong, so it often feels less risky to go off the ranch in significant a way as Hectic has.
Now, some people might point out that Sherlock is also doing a gimmick and no I don't think it has anything to do with his alignment - that's his posting in general (aka seems like someone made a gimmick alt) and thus there's an expectation that he keeps up with it/a higher chance that's something he decided to do when he made the alt as opposed to a gametime decision like Hectic likely made here.
In the bits of scumhunting that he's done there's not obviously a ton but I do like that he pointed out the +town on Chemist's entrance. I don't understand why Billy ends up his spare vote instead of the Chemist (why go for the diluted townjuice when you can go for the pure stuff?), but I'm digging his vibes and so for now he is my spirit animal.
this post by nachomamma is still quite a strong one; his discourse surrounding the spare/hurt dilemma was clean too, and he pointed out convincing info demonstrating suji town even before SH came in and removed all doubt
even with his flakiness lately (and yeah that hurts my read of him), i still feel like a nachotown case is surprisingly easy to cohesively make. it's so easy to distinguish his vigor from that of someone like alimdea.
oh right but i'm supposed to avoid making towncases for anyone but hectic today ugh
i suppose it's too much to overthink this - it's a dangerous slope to start being ambiguous about my reads, especially if i'm hoping to be a viable spare candidate later on
the pressure towards ambiguity could be a good reason to lynch scum that i previously ignored though
ok that's all i'm doing today i hope.
I mean, all this progression happened while Nacho was missing from the thread. He went from SL, to betting the game on town!Nacho, to moderate townread while nothing happened at all in the meanwhile. I mean, i had a townread on Nacho initially when i skimmed through his ISO, but was kinda let down by Nacho first committing to a fight resolution and then later on he joined the spare wagon on Hectic instead. It would make sense for scum!Nacho to promote the town!Hectic spare if he wants to pocket/gain towncred and switch to mislynching later (this same reasoning i applied to Chara if i am wrong on Hectic). Also there are posts 306, 362 and lately 1163 which would fit with the 1-scum-on-my-wagon theory and could point to this read being correct, but i'm not sure i see it worthy to replace my main solve before getting a flip on Hectic.
Purely from a info standpoint, Hectic is always the best lynch and i don't think there is any doubt there given that he was the highest d1 spare wagon, today he's still in the spotlight, no NK on him when i didn't even start pushing his lynch (i was on Replica by d1 eod - although sherlock being widely townread for good reason could explain the nk choice). I would also be a solid info lynch too, to be fair. My point is that ultimately it's never a good idea to lynch the low hanging fruit Bingle today, and pushes in that direction could lead to 1. Psyche scum, as initially noted, where he is maintaining a scumlean on lhf!Bingle but wants to remove the way more active and dangerous town!Amrun; OR 2. Amrun scum -but hardly w/Psyche- or Amrun heavily pocketed by the real solve (Hectic and his social circle).
Although, both scum!Psyche and scum!Amrun would probably give in to mislynch town!Hectic at this point, rather than pushing elsewhere. Unless Hectic/Psyche is a thing instead of Nacho/Psyche. Hmmm... yeah, i don't know, but a flip on Hectic or Psyche would help greatly. I can foresee Amrun pushing even more against Bingle given how far i am extending my arm to defend him, but really it's just not a good lynch today unless it's caught scum, and i don't think he is.
townread: farkran, hectic
townlean: psyche, amrun?
null: replica, chara, alim (note: I haven't read the ISOs of these three yet, but I did want to talk about my Nacho read before doing that)
scumlean:
scumread: nacho
My Nacho read is based on one central thing: I think they are having trouble making genuine reads. I don't like them repeatedly going "I disagree with this but Chemist is still town", it feels like them trying to justify a TMI townread, I don't like the abundance of mechanics talk, and I don't like their scum pool being mostly lurkers then them proceeding to lurk.
Going with Farkran over hectic because I feel like my townread is more substantial
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:04 am
by Chara
i need to do work today.
Farkran, i don't understand where your Bingle townread is coming from. i didn't realize you did TR him until you said you were sticking your arm out to defend him.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:29 am
by Chara
there's a lot i want to do here but it requires putting a lot of energy into this, otherwise i feel like i'm not getting the whole picture.
i can't wrap my head around someone reading Hectic's ISO and thinking "yes, this is definitely the best lynch", but Farkran's logic has sort of leaked into how i'm thinking about it enough that i'm really concerned with nailing them down. i don't think "really believes what he's saying" is near a good enough reason for a strong TR, but to do something more substantial than that requires picking through an ISO i for some reason have a lot of trouble with.
Amrun is probably the player this game i understand the most (and am most paranoid of, but that's less important) in how she approaches the game, i see where everything she's done has come from in spite of her not being the most wordy of players, and that's a good sign to me. or i just like shorter posts that aren't also spammy.
Psyche: is Bingle a strong TR to you? also, i understand why you're being cagey, but with a week left to deadline i would like to have some sort of wagoning happening. this is sort of to everyone and also to me. we aren't running out of time or anything but it feels like wheels are spinning and not going very far.
Bingle: your reads seem based on the timing you replaced in to the exclusion of the rest of the game. or not seems, this is what you've said and i believe it. i know you don't want to read the entire thing, though i think some context would help things, but couching all of your reads with the followup that none of them are especially strong is exactly the sort of "pushing things with minor blowback" you're accusing Amrun of.
why do you TR Replica?
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:33 am
by Chara
i guess it's unfair to say no one's been moving forward.
Farkran and Amrun are pushing lynches (even if the former is wrong) and Hectic pushed my spare, and Chemist's reason for the Nacho vote is one i actually don't hate. though it'd help if Nacho was present.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:36 am
by Chara
also, that flavour is very cute and i enjoy it very much, thank you pops.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:19 am
by Bingle
In post 1257, Chara wrote:Bingle: your reads seem based on the timing you replaced in to the exclusion of the rest of the game. or not seems, this is what you've said and i believe it. i know you don't want to read the entire thing, though i think some context would help things, but couching all of your reads with the followup that none of them are especially strong is exactly the sort of "pushing things with minor blowback" you're accusing Amrun of.
why do you TR Replica?
Okay. If you link a few posts you think are important I’ll probably skim them. If you link a bunch of posts I won’t.
I don’t tr rep. I think that the statement that hecs tr on you applies more to rep than to you is an interesting one that bears investigation, and am strongly suggesting other people do that for me.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:43 am
by Chara
i'm not very willing to handhold you a few posts because none of them would give you needed context by themselves. i think a lot of posts this game are important.
i also don't really care about your opinion on what needs investigation if you won't do any of the investigating or commit to a read. to put it another way, what you find interesting i don't find interesting, it's you sitting on your armchair making a comment about something that might be relevant but neither giving a conclusion nor even really asking a question. it leaves me unable to even ask why it would apply more to Replica (who is not even pushing a Hectic spare currently, and did not make any of the comments Hectic mentioned) because you don't actually know and are telling someone else to do the work.
i know you've given reads on Farkran and Psyche. why is Psyche town?
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:48 am
by Chara
i can't make you read the game. someone with more free time than me might want to make some sort of summary, but i'm not sure how useful it would be.
concentrating solely on the posting you're actually here for isn't a bad thing, either. but when even that has statements like the end of 1240 it just looks like you're purposely weakening your own statements and i can't see the value in that besides trying to justify being wrong later, either to yourself or to the thread depending on your alignment.
Farkran, i don't understand where your Bingle townread is coming from. i didn't realize you did TR him until you said you were sticking your arm out to defend him.
I am TLing him, because of Almidia posting (which i liked, before he disappeared) and because i think there are far scummier slots to focus on first. I explained myself several times.
Besides, i think you haven't been reading my recent posts at all. All the part where Hectic's reasoning applies more to replica than you was my case, not bingle's, and i explained why i think it does in my recent answers to hectic. It's odd to hear you prod Bingle to read the game when you aren't reading my posts either.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:11 am
by Chara
ugh. that's on me. the way Bingle said it i thought he had noted it himself, but he was just agreeing with you now that i look again.
i'm kind of embarrassed about the tone of my last post to him, even though i think most of what i said still does apply it is kind of shitty of me to say that when the premise was a mistake to begin with.
i do read your posts, i just find them hard to parse without serious looking.
i'll back off on that until i get my shit together. sorry.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:36 am
by Farkran
I mean, i'm trying to do reality checks on my reads, not falling victim to death tunnels, etc, but i just can't interpret the gamestate any differently than what i'm been pushing today.
The slot i'd love to hear now is Nacho. He was a strong pusher for Hectic's spare, and there have been interactions with the Psyche slot i would like to have clarified. I want to see if anything has changed in the last ~25 pages worth of content. Posts 884-885 are full of promises that haven't been delivered.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:17 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 378, Replica wrote:This is really bad; townreading both of the lurkers without reasons points to a classic newer scum mistake: Knowing someone is town and working in reverse.
You seem to dislike or not understand most of my posts so far, as opposed to just having disagreements in play style or interpretations. You still have me as firm town. The only plausible explanation I can really think of myself here is that you like my tone and push for engagement and activity. You are much, much better than to readily drink that kind of Kool-Aid. That Chemist read is so bad.
I mean, I haven't played in a while so maybe I no longer know what I'm talking about and maybe I never did, but newer scum don't tend to push back against the hivemind in order to protect lurkers for basically no reason. The "knowing someone is town and working in reverse" normally happens with people they regard as threats as opposed to big juicy mislynches, but, again, maybe I'm just an idiot here?
I'm townreading you because I don't believe the approach that you've taken care of is one that would be advantageous for you to take as scum and I do like your tone and your earnestness in figuring out the game. Your implication that I as town would have a deeper and more meaningful townread on you than if I were scum is silly since chances are you wouldn't be my first mislynch target; if you're doing something sketchy that you think I should have picked up on feel free to enlighten me but otherwise I don't understand the angle.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:28 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 380, Chara wrote:what is the main thrust of your Hectic read, Nacho? i agree he's towny, in that he is engaging with the game and giving reads that make sense, but i don't know if that's worthy of an absolute locktown read.
i know we only have a day left, which is unfortunate, but in terms of spare targets i am most sure of, it would be Replica more than anything.
HEAL: Replica
there's the style to the posting (something that i believe is inherent to Replica, which is not AI in and of itself) first of all, which rings honest. i'm not explaining it well but i think it's something that's really difficult to fake, the way that Replica has essentially introduced themself and their methodology and then proceeded to apply it in a way that does not seem performative.
i kind of don't want to know who they are but i can't help wondering anyway.
it's worthy of a locktown read because i think that his scum range is much narrower than someone like Replica's. in addition to the scum game that I linked earlier, there's also the half-scum game he played in Mainstream Mafia where he ended up replacing out; he's just in a gorgeous kind of sweet spot where there's a vast tonal gulf in between his scum game and town game in general and his town game here looks very town based on the engaging game and making sense but also the smaller details that just make it obvious that our boy doesn't have an agenda.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:44 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 382, Chara wrote:i do wonder about his list of reads, because from calling Replica "disingenous" (with negative connotations?) i didn't expect a strong townread.
i thought that replica's portrayal of your posting was a bit slimy and overly critical in that he seemed to be fitting a square peg into a round hole. i don't think that's necessarily a scum trait; again, don't think that scum replaces in and starts pushing a you+me team unless they feel they have a case that can get them some support or clout and the push as a whole didn't read that way.
not hectic
probably not you, rep, or asriel
I feel like pine is a cop-out push at this point so slightly lean town there
so that leaves sherlock/nacho/alim/amrun/suji
will probably work through this soon
when you say cop-out push, do you mean you think scum are pushing it, or just LHF?
Just LHF but I do think scum are probably pushing it if I’m right
this is a weird position to push when there was exactly 0 people voting for pine at that point in time.
what did pine do that read town to you? why is it scummy to think that someone who has done absolutely nothing has a chance of being scum?
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:49 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 398, Chara wrote:delaying his own spare at i believe L-1 is something i like, since i find it likely he'd have had no problems if scum and he decided to tell alimdia (is that who it was?) to go ahead.
this is a very firm towntell from my position and don't understand why it hasn't gotten more attention.
In post 399, Chemist1422 wrote:LHF is people who are getting pushed on specifically for that reason, or any other that makes them easy to lynch (abrasive personality, inability to produce content, bad reads)
the problem i have with this perspective is that when you were pushing it, there wasn't a push for pine or asriel to die. i was comfortable with the deaths of both but realized that my reasons for wanting them to die (they weren't there/other people were better) wasn't compelling in the least bit, and so i pushed for a spare instead. a vast majority of yesterday was pushing for spares - you creating this world where people were pushing LHF when no one was really pushing anything is actually fairly sketchy.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:06 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 409, Farkran wrote:Since i'm re-reading your ISO first, Amrun... on my first readthrough, all your posts sound like town, and that is why you have been placed that high in my readlist. On a second read, though, it seems that you are lacking a significant amount of internal consistency in your posts and i'd like to learn why.
i like farkan's willingness to attack amrun after just slotting her in as her #2 townread, and I do believe the prodding of her being comfortable with her top scumread pushing through the spare wagon of the day is a valid concern to have and a sweet catch if farkan is actually scum here.
In post 521, Farkran wrote:Hmmm... i think this is a townslip from Amrun. Banal misrep on a scumread, i think this almost always comes from tunneled town. Or, at least, Amrun is genuinely pushing suji and not trying to put pressure or reaction test anything.
I'll explain the thought process that led to this conclusion: when you are town and uninformed, you form uncertain reads, which then you subconsciously corroborate every time you see something that apparently agrees with your theory. It's wrong to play like that, but it's how the human brain instinctively works. If something goes in the same direction as you are going, you are more likely to perceive it as true - therefore you do not pause to doublecheck if you were correct. That is indicative of sincerity. Sure, scum!Amrun too could produce a fake tunnel against suji, but it's... way less likely, because it's really hard to fake subconscious reads. I am more confident on town!Amrun now, and the displayed range of read mistakes/instinctive thought would explain her internal inconsistency i pointed out earlier.
this also feeds the farkan = town fire in my mind; don't think he'd take this significant of a swing on Amrun!town if he's scum here.
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:29 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 610, Psyche wrote:At very least, I'm sympathetic w/ suspicion against nacho. I think it's because I've picked up kinda high expectations for his townplay, and he doesn't seem to really be meeting them here. But that's so weak! I'm totally aware that it's so weak!
can we stop doing this? i appreciate half of the sentiment of this statement and its various forms; this community means a ton to me at the end of the day and i definitely had a moment in time where i played a bunch and was familiar with a large chunk of people and thus was easily cleared as town and was able to sometimes clear others as town/get strong as shit slam dunks. i also had more time. i appreciate that this nacho wasn't forgotten.
however, i did take a long break from the site for a reason. and when you don't play for a while and then come back you aren't just taking up from where you left off. and i think that people who form expectations of me based off reputation are setting themselves up for some disappointment because i wasn't a consistent nor conventional player to begin with.
In post 622, Amrun wrote:@Replica: idk maybe black/white isn’t exactly right. Maybe rigid is better. Let’s hug it out?
If y’all fucking fight nacho day 1 I’ll have fisticuffs with all of you individually.
Why? What is it about his play that you find so strongly indicative of Town?
What about his play is it that you find so strongly to be scum? Everyone’s cases are garbage.
awwww and if i kept my angsty complaints to myself for about 5 minutes more i would have felt much better and wouldn't also feel silly
love you amrun
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:35 pm
by Psyche
i cannot hide
the palpitations of my heart
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:38 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 638, SherlockHolmes wrote:although I still do not think that sparing is anything other than terrible for D1 and really dislike that his last meaningful activity was pushing that especially when he earlier called it out as suboptimal
that's just how the game turned out for me.
if i had a scumread that didn't suck i would have pursued it, but i didn't. instead i had a townread that i felt really good about. so i pushed the townread. i don't understand why that was a sticking point for anyone.