Still the same issue IMO. The best play by the lawyer is to do nothing. I suggest removing the mafia lovers if you want to keep the lawyer, or make some radical alteration.
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:54 pm
by ElectricBadger
Judgement of the Dead Mafia:
2 Mafia Goons
8 Vanilla Townies
-Game begins N0, with a mafia kill.
-Voting is done ONLY by dead players. Dead players may ONLY post votes.
Quirks: Keeps all the players involved in the game until it's over; forces mafia players to choose how to deal with problem townies (let them keep talking or give them a vote).
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:56 pm
by Mr. Flay
LOLwut? How are you thinking of wording Win Conditions?
Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:25 pm
by animorpherv1
ElectricBadger wrote:Still the same issue IMO. The best play by the lawyer is to do nothing. I suggest removing the mafia lovers if you want to keep the lawyer, or make some radical alteration.
I desperatley want to keep the lawyer, so expect an alteration with Mafia-Town lover pairs.
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:17 am
by Mr. Flay
I want to see this in operation once or twice before suggesting it to VRK as a replacement for F11. I don't think it is susceptible to the old "Investigative Role claims, Doctor protects while Investigator hunts" problem, because the RB can just stop an outed
Cop
Tracker while the Goon hunts the Doc.
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:21 am
by Ether
So...Pie E7 with two extra townies and the cop weakened? I guess it doesn't have that Day 2 massclaim issue, but F11 still seems like a much better game. Why does it need a replacement?
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:34 am
by Mr. Flay
25% of the time (in theory) the game is REALLY unbalanced: RGTTTTTTT. We can't reliably win 2G10T mountainous games; we still manage about 30% wins there through sheer dumb luck, but it's not really satisfying to me that it's a possibility. It's mostly a necessary evil in F11 because the 'random role selection' element gets reductionist if you just include the other three possibilities.
The other reason is that, frankly, I don't think teaching our newbies to play Follow-the-Cop is best.
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:36 am
by Elmo
If it were me, I would at least mix in 2:5 nightless or so. Just sayin'...
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:53 am
by Ether
The thing about vanilla F11 is that scum still have to act differently, and town gets stuff to work with from that. (Also, I think it's likely that
knowing
the setup to have no power roles demoralizes players in 2:10.) It isn't "REALLY" unbalanced, and I'm pretty sure 35% wins is much better than random. Its odds aren't dramatically different from the other three F11 outcomes, aside from Cop-doctor.
I think teaching our newbies to play "automatically assume the claimed power role is town if nobody has counterclaimed" is a much bigger issue, that all of those non-C9-style setups perpetrate. I like that F11 gives town more information to work with in vanilla.
Plus, in F11, the cop can't actually be followed unless the town lynches the roleblocker (not the goon) on Day 1 and doesn't manage to take the doctor down with it. Scum have to protect the roleblocker to keep that from happening. (It's argued that this is a feature, not a bug, though to be honest I just see it as a necessary evil.)
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:38 pm
by farside22
Mr. Flay wrote:
I want to see this in operation once or twice before suggesting it to VRK as a replacement for F11. I don't think it is susceptible to the old "Investigative Role claims, Doctor protects while Investigator hunts" problem, because the RB can just stop an outed
Cop
Tracker while the Goon hunts the Doc.
Question. Is the doctor and the tracker in the game or is a possiblity of being in the game like F11?
9 player game 1 mafa RB, 1 goon. I think I would miss the possible fake claims that mafia can pull in the game.
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:59 pm
by Zachrulez
Ether wrote:So...Pie E7 with two extra townies and the cop weakened? I guess it doesn't have that Day 2 massclaim issue, but F11 still seems like a much better game. Why does it need a replacement?
Actually there might be a perk to that setup in the fact that the tracker could also catch the ROLEBLOCKER.
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:02 pm
by Zachrulez
Mr. Flay wrote:25% of the time (in theory) the game is REALLY unbalanced: RGTTTTTTT. We can't reliably win 2G10T mountainous games; we still manage about 30% wins there through sheer dumb luck, but it's not really satisfying to me that it's a possibility. It's mostly a necessary evil in F11 because the 'random role selection' element gets reductionist if you just include the other three possibilities.
The other reason is that, frankly, I don't think teaching our newbies to play Follow-the-Cop is best.
I don't really see mountainous as a problem, if anything it's the IDEAL teaching tool, and follow the cop is much less of a problem in newbie games in F11 than it has been in past setups.
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:34 pm
by Ether
Zach wrote:Actually there might be a perk to that setup in the fact that the tracker could also catch the ROLEBLOCKER.
Huh? I got that it can do that, but where's the perk?
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:58 pm
by Zachrulez
Ether wrote:
Zach wrote:Actually there might be a perk to that setup in the fact that the tracker could also catch the ROLEBLOCKER.
Huh? I got that it can do that, but where's the perk?
... lol, yeah long day of work and I forgot that the cop would get a guilty on the roleblocker...
That's what happens when you think about things with a tracker mindset.
Have no idea what I was talking about now...
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:59 pm
by Zachrulez
Anyway, something tells me that type of game would turn into a doc claiming fest a good percentage of the time.
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:27 pm
by Elmo
I have faint memories of proposing that exact setup a while ago. I may just be imagining stuff. But I think someone came up with that or something like it when brainstorming for what became F11. I have no idea which thread, though
I.. think a problem is you've got two roles confirmed in the game. That means a) scum can never fakeclaim without being caught (e.g. cop gambits) and b) endgames are much harder due to that. You're highly likely to have a 50:50 or at least one confirmed innocent.
The Cop Killer will kill the Cop when performing the nightkill regardless of whether the Cop is protected by the Doc or not. It will not kill a Townie if the Townie is protected by the Doc. (This is fairly close to Bird C9.)
The Cop Killer will kill the Cop when performing the nightkill regardless of whether the Cop is protected by the Doc or not. It will not kill a Townie if the Townie is protected by the Doc. (This is fairly close to Bird C9.)
Doesn't the mafia auto-lose if the Mafia Cop Killer is lynched Day One and the town massclaims Day 2 for the same reason the mafia autoloses Pie E7 if the Roleblocker is lynched Day 1? Because of that, I think the Cop Killer needs to be an inherit trait for both Mafia members.
The Cop Killer will kill the Cop when performing the nightkill regardless of whether the Cop is protected by the Doc or not. It will not kill a Townie if the Townie is protected by the Doc. (This is fairly close to Bird C9.)
Doesn't the mafia auto-lose if the Mafia Cop Killer is lynched Day One and the town massclaims Day 2 for the same reason the mafia autoloses Pie E7 if the Roleblocker is lynched Day 1? Because of that, I think the Cop Killer needs to be an inherit trait for both Mafia members.
In other words, it needs to be Bird C9.
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:52 pm
by Mr. Flay
Ether wrote:The thing about vanilla F11 is that scum still have to act differently, and town gets stuff to work with from that. (Also, I think it's likely that
knowing
the setup to have no power roles demoralizes players in 2:10.) It isn't "REALLY" unbalanced, and I'm pretty sure 35% wins is much better than random. Its odds aren't dramatically different from the other three F11 outcomes, aside from Cop-doctor.
I think we need a bigger sample, but I'll concede the point that the latest numbers don't show a big difference (which perplexes me, since 'regular games' show a huge difference. Is the demoralization effect that big?
Elmo wrote:If it were me, I would at least mix in 2:5 nightless or so. Just sayin'...
LOLwut?
farside22 wrote:Question. Is the doctor and the tracker in the game or is a possiblity of being in the game like F11?
That's the only setup - no percentages like F11/C9.
I guess I see the concern with false claims, but isn't that always a concern with a game that small? It's always going to be swingy, which is why we're playing 9p in the first place (to reduce the chance of LyLo D2).
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:53 pm
by Elmo
animorpherv1 wrote:Elmo C10?
I am actually not seriously proposing this setup and do not want my name attached to it very much please
bird1111 wrote:Doesn't the mafia auto-lose if the Mafia Cop Killer is lynched Day One and the town massclaims Day 2 for the same reason the mafia autoloses Pie E7 if the Roleblocker is lynched Day 1? Because of that, I think the Cop Killer needs to be an inherit trait for both Mafia members.
Yes. I disagree, because Pie E7.
Mr. Flay wrote:LOLwut?
That. Running vanilla nightless newbie games with whatever numbers would be awesomesauce.
Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:09 pm
by TheButtonmen
Not quite mountainous:
2 Masons.
8 VTs.
2 Goons.
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:54 am
by Vel-Rahn Koon
Mr. Flay wrote:
Ether wrote:The thing about vanilla F11 is that scum still have to act differently, and town gets stuff to work with from that. (Also, I think it's likely that
knowing
the setup to have no power roles demoralizes players in 2:10.) It isn't "REALLY" unbalanced, and I'm pretty sure 35% wins is much better than random. Its odds aren't dramatically different from the other three F11 outcomes, aside from Cop-doctor.
I think we need a bigger sample, but I'll concede the point that the latest numbers don't show a big difference (which perplexes me, since 'regular games' show a huge difference. Is the demoralization effect that big?
I think the issue here is that the majority of the players in an F11 setup are Newbies with little to no experience. Those with experience are experienced outside of the way we do things here. Balance is done assuming optimal play from all players, which is inherently missing in a Newbie game.
Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:02 am
by Vel-Rahn Koon
Won't the Tracker auto-nail the Mafia doing the killing, since the Tracker would be told that "Player X went to Player Y's house last night". The next day Player Y turns up dead. Player X is scum.
Am I missing something about the Tracker role? It seems with only 1 killing group in an F11 setup you're giving the tracker too much power, because he automatically knows that the person doing the killing must be scum, and not necessarily a pro-Town killing role like a Vig or similar.
