I wasn't feeling well a couple of nights ago, but here's the SSBF and dana post I promised. But first:
Percy wrote:Whoa, inaccurate AtE out of fucking nowhere.
Locke Lamora wrote:Mina's AtE is horribly scummy. It bothers me that a good player is playing down their scumhunting skills, particularly in the middle of D2.
You don't know how much these quotes amuse me (and not just because they flatter my ego). Um...let me put it this way. If anyone seriously suspects me for that comment, then I will show about five examples of town meta in which I whine about how much I suck. I'm kind of notorious for it offsite. But it's true. I'm awesome at not getting lynched. But based purely on my percentage rate of nailing scum and getting them lynched, I've fallen flat on my face so many times that I tend to lack confidence in my suspicions.
So now that you've pointed out that that comment was an AtE, exactly what do you think the scum motivation for making a throwaway comment like that was, since I wasn't using it to sway suspicion away from me? (Directed mostly at Locke Lamora, who didn't even suspect me, but is now parroting Percy and calling it "horribly scummy.") Really, if there was a scummy AtE in that post, it was "boohoo, I can't help being this lurky and useless." Is it just Scumhunting By Wiki along the lines of "1 count of AtE = 1.5 scumpoints + 2 counts of buddying = 2 x 1 scumpoint = 3.5 scumpoints"? I've already mentioned on Day One that I hate it when a townie explodes or reacts in an emotional and genuine manner and someone uses "AtE" as an excuse to ignore any towntells he's making.
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Yes, I'm aware of the irony that although I've been complaining about the sheepy "Vote: dana/FOS: SSBF" and "Vote: SSBF/FOS: dana" posts, at least two of my three top lynch choices (CSL, Benmage, and vezo) are "easy targets." (That said, there's someone else I'd like to draw some attention to if I have time.)
I'll be entirely honest about two things. Firstly, there's way too much information to process in this thread, so I think I've tuned out both dana and SSBF a little because I've been focused elsewhere.
Secondly, I've already admitted that I'm biased against popular wagons. My post was more a backlash against all the sheepy "Vote: dana/FOS: SSBF"/"Vote: SSBF/FOS: dana" posts than a defence of dana and SSBF. And it was also annoyance that people were ignoring my awesome CSL wagon for what I thought were lesser cases. People are looking elsewhere now, so it's gotten better. But you didn't think there was
something
weird about every single person in the game going after the same two easy targets? Sure, a few people brought up points against a couple of other players, but there was no real momentum elsewhere. Off the top of my head, there might have been two or three votes that weren't for either dana or SSBF midway through the day.
I use "VI" a bit generously. No, they don't act like vezo and blatantly bandwagon or change their role claims. But they belong to a certain category of player that I have difficulty reading and that tend to be my blind spot. They're all over the place, they post a lot of noise (making them hard to read), and they commit a lot of "misplays" (for example, SSBF defending Benmage for no reason). They're players who get lynched repeatedly as town. That said, I've given scum with that playstyle before a free pass. So it's like...I can see where the accusations against them are coming from, but I'm just not convinced that they're scum.
But fuck it. I think this:
danakillsu wrote:You two have been pressuring me so much that I say things that SEEM inconsistent. It's ridiculous. You say, "This is scummy". Then I say "Anyone could do that. This is my perspective". Then you say "That's retconning. Lynch him". What am I supposed to do other than tell you what I thought at the time? However, the things I have said are NOT inconsistent. I thought Raivann was scummy, but didn't make that very obvious. I asked everyone why they were voting for him INSTEAD of Kleedrac, with the implication that Kleedrac was a better lynch. The responses I got convinced me that Raivann was scummier than I originally thought. But I still wanted to lynch Kleedrac/Budja more.
sounds townish.
I don't think him being more emotionally committed to a Kleedrac lynch than a Raivann lynch is damning now that I think dana probably isn't Raivann's scumbuddy. Him staying on Kleedrac and acting as if the CMAR lynch was a given while Raivann was a viable alternative was scummy, but I feel as though Benmage's and CSL's inconsistencies were more cut-and-dry instances of "I'm making up scumreads as I go along because I don't care who we lynch as long as it's not me," whereas I could see dana's flip-flop coming from poor town. (He didn't vote CMAR, only stayed on Kleedrac.) It's a lot more subtle, and could be attributed to ego, confusion, or laziness....But I just realized I forgot about his horrible FOS of Percy while caving in to his pressure, irritability, vote on SSBF when SSBF was the competing wagon, and sheeping of the group's suspects...ugh, his play really is a mess. It's just that I'm not all that confident that he's scum. Fuck, I wish dana had explained his Percy FOS before replacing out instead of getting irritable and defensive.
Percy brought up meta showing Raivann does bus sometimes (although his link to the Raivann!scum game isn't working). But I still think the Raivann-dana interaction is too genuine. Drippereth and MacavityLock both got townreads off Raivann purely because of his reaction to dana's "scum" reveal. I just think it's too spontaneous for Raivann to vote a buddy for claiming scum, then get outraged that no one else noticed it, then to realize it was an alcohol-induced thing, then to finally remove his vote later when called on it. Considering how badly Raivann played as scum, I think it's more likely that he was genuinely scumhunting for the other faction.
Dana's claim is a null tell. It's a little frustrating (and unbelievable) how many power roles have been outed or killed in the first two days. And Brynden Tully is an odd choice for a jailkeeper. That said, I know Faraday has used a jailkeeper before, and a jailkeeper seems like a good fit in a set-up with multiple killing roles and potentially a cop (given the godfather flip). Saying dana is scum because his claim isn't limited is a bad argument (in the mini, there were limited AND full power roles). And considering dana RAISED Drippereth (and suspected Percy), Dripp was a logical heal target for danakillsu.
Either way, although I'm uneasy about I doubt it, I agree with him that I'd rather leave dana alive to eat a nightkill. Hey, scum! The protown jailkeeper just revealed. Even better, if you're being sincere about your opinions in the thread, at least 75% of you think dana is scum. And if you're a Greyjoy and dana isn't one of your buddies...well, don't you want the Lannister roleblocker flip to distract everyone from looking for Raivann's buddies? Of course, it's probably too late for this plan to work, since everyone in the game has vocally declared how much they want to lynch him.
I'm getting a very mixed read from SSBF. Earlier on, he came across as though he was making an effort, but makes weird opportunistic votes, weak arguments, and odd comments out of nowhere that seem like filler instead of actual scumhunting. And for some reason, he keeps on sucking up to me and crediting me with cases others have made. His interactions with Raivann do look a lot like classic distancing. Him staying off the dana wagon when it gained steam (unlike dana's reaction to him) is a point in his favour, though. I do need to reread him, because I want to see if there's any contradiction in his excuse for reviving my response to LynchMe.
dana and SSBF have both committed scumtells (although they've also made a couple of towntells), but I just don't get that feeling of naked opportunism I get with CSL or Benmage. Their posts don't really seem to advance a scum agenda. I'll use "I was right about Raivann being scum and CMAR and Kleedrac being town" to trumpet my killer VI-reading instincts (shush, no one mention that I trusted Raivann after his claim and voted Kleedrac, or that I said up above that I'm always wrong, because...um, that doesn't count).
So Percy, now I have a question for you. You seem convinced that dana, SSBF, AND CSL are scum. Is there any doubt in your mind that one of your reads might be wrong?
