Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[DrippingGoofball]

yeeehaw!

YOU DID A SUPERB JOB.

Is there a McCoy Scummie Award?

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm surprised I survived for so long.

Me too!!! I guess I last longer if the mafia doesn't have a nightkill, haha.

Never mind. I still have a hangover from New Year's.

[DrippingGoofball]

Destructor is 100% town.

Wasn't that cute? I was trying to look like the cop and draw the kill.

[Guardian]

dgb also played well.

it was fun to play with all y'all while it lasted.

[Elmo]

elmo, At the time, I thought vollkan and rolf were scum...and I didnt think anyone would pressure them until they knew my alignment. So I really didnt care if I hung(just vanilla).

They didn't get pressured after we knew your alignment either, though.

I want to avoid having a race to see who can submit a move first following the start of a new day.

Yeah, that's the only thing I'm not wild about in this setup.

I like the deep south type of role wherein you make a choice during the day and it happens as if there were a night one -- as long as you have some choice in you get some result -- and you can revise your choice any time during the day.

Seconding this, with the proviso that getting investigation results in real-time adds an interesting twist (I personally think it makes the cop role significantly more powerful), and that having the kill take place in the middle of day 1 tends to provoke discussion a bit more, I think.

I think the deadlines were spot on, although the holidays could have bitten us significantly if we hadn't been in a good spot.

[Adel]

the part of the deep south format I'm really attracted to, other than not getting stalled out on night phases, is how an unexpected kill in the middle of the game shakes things up.

Look for a long essay in MD on this topic soon. It is occupying a lot of my attention.

After I give it some more thought, and get some more feedback, I'll start another wan of these fairly-normal semi-open deep south large games. I'll send pm invite/reminders to any of you that are interested in playing again, and once again I'll encourage any player that pre-/in's to invite other players they would like to play with to pre-/in as well.

[vollkan]

Really good game all. My bussing strategy failed completely Something I'd like to know, if anybody wants to explain is: What it was about my attacks on FL and Yos that reeked so much of bussing?

I'm going to check that "Most Enjoyable" scummy thing now and second it if need be. I thought the game was well balanced, and I agree with Adel that the Deep South mechanic of having unexpected kills really makes things more interesting and exciting.

[Elmo]

Generally, if a town player attacks a scum player, and someone unknown very quickly agrees with them, they're scum bussing. It's

extremely

rare for anyone to be persuaded quickly; if you think of the hassle and discussion you typically have to go through in order to convince people to vote your suspect, there's something definitely unnatural about the way you seemed to have a "eureka!" moment right after Des started wailing on him. That, and you seemed very keen to make a long, detailed case on why you thought he was scum without going out and persuading other people (e.g. FL) to vote for him; that's generally a sign of bussing, since being seen to suspect someone is more important than getting them lynched.

With FL, I just found your reasons really disproportionate to the level of suspicion, especially seeing as we had very little content from the role over the course of the game; I didn't consciously remember your quote earlier until afterwards, but I felt there was definitely something off about the whole thing. See, everyone else was lynching her on the basis of "everyone else is town", but you don't believe in towntells, and indeed you had most people at 50%.

Now, I don't think bussing FL in the way you did was a mistake, because generally the whole point is to look more pro-town at the expense of it being more obvious you knew what was going on, and it worked, but I think I would have spotted it as a neutral observer. I just don't think there's any happy medium there. But generally speaking, the ideal for bussing is not necessarily to be undetectable, in my view.

That's my 1p, anyway.

[Elmo]

Also, I'm curious about your view on towntells in the context of this game. Obviously the lack of kills helped, but that seemed the decisive factor, to me. Probably the only time I have felt completed screwed as scum is this one scumchat game where about 2/3 of the town were pretty sure each other were town within about the first 3 minutes of the game (Yos may remember this one). And it just seems like there's not a lot you can do then. I have no idea how the mafia would have scored a further mislynch (me aside, obv).

[vollkan]

Generally, if a town player attacks a scum player, and someone unknown very quickly agrees with them, they're scum bussing. It's

extremely

rare for anyone to be persuaded quickly; if you think of the hassle and discussion you typically have to go through in order to convince people to vote your suspect, there's something definitely unnatural about the way you seemed to have a "eureka!" moment right after Des started wailing on him. That, and you seemed very keen to make a long, detailed case on why you thought he was scum without going out and persuading other people (e.g. FL) to vote for him; that's generally a sign of bussing, since being seen to suspect someone is more important than getting them lynched.

With FL, I just found your reasons really disproportionate to the level of suspicion, especially seeing as we had very little content from the role over the course of the game; I didn't consciously remember your quote earlier until afterwards, but I felt there was definitely something off about the whole thing. See, everyone else was lynching her on the basis of "everyone else is town", but you don't believe in towntells, and indeed you had most people at 50%.

Now, I don't think bussing FL in the way you did was a mistake, because generally the whole point is to look more pro-town at the expense of it being more obvious you knew what was going on, and it worked, but I think I would have spotted it as a neutral observer. I just don't think there's any happy medium there. But generally speaking, the ideal for bussing is not necessarily to be undetectable, in my view.

That's my 1p, anyway.

Thanks for that.

I'd guessed that my backflip on Yos probably was a big factor. I was pinioned pretty badly by Des pointing out that Yos's vote was a L-1 vote. Either I had to tolerate the vote, which I figured would would raise questions about why I, being the anti-gut obsessive that I am, would let Yos get away with it; or, alternatively, I had to attack Yos for it. In hindsight, I think the optimal thing to have done would just have been to treat it as a moderate scumtell against Yos, but not to go vigorously against him over it..

As for the FL thing, I again agree with you. Her play was scummy, but giving her a 75 overshot things enormously. At the time, I figured that time was up for either FL or myself, so I wanted to gain as much credit as possible, in the hope that being a driver of her lynch might just spare me.

It's ironic because when I look for bussing one of the first things I focus on is people making mountains out of molehills, which didn't prevent me making the exact same mistake here

Also, I'm curious about your view on towntells in the context of this game. Obviously the lack of kills helped, but that seemed the decisive factor, to me. Probably the only time I have felt completed screwed as scum is this one scumchat game where about 2/3 of the town were pretty sure each other were town within about the first 3 minutes of the game (Yos may remember this one). And it just seems like there's not a lot you can do then. I have no idea how the mafia would have scored a further mislynch (me aside, obv).

It isn't that I don't "believe" in towntells.

I realise the irony of me saying this after my failed bussing, but pro-town behaviour is not difficult to fake. You'll notice that, by a certain stage of this game, I started calling Des pro-town. That wasn't just me buddying or anything; it was what I thought objectively to be a correct judgment. I think sustained posting of good reasons and consistent behaviour makes a player more likely to be town.

What I don't agree with is where a person is labelled pro-town for either one post, or for a number of posts but not over a sustained period of time. I was being honest when I said in the early stages of the game that I couldn't see anything in Des's play that couldn't reasonably come from scum-Des.

[Korts]

Seriously, though, why did you try to kill me in particular on Day 3?

[Elmo]

I think generally pro-town behaviour is not difficult to fake. I also agree with the basis by which you give people town points (if scum have x% chance to drop tells per post, then by deduction someone who has made y posts without dropping a noticeable tell is z% less likely to be scum). But I would have to part company with you in that I feel there are certain types of pro-town behaviour that are extremely difficult to fake; interestingly, I pick up on virtually all of via gut, so maybe for your playstyle towntells shouldn't exist. I can't think of any reliable way to make towntells work with a mostly logic-based style. I am, FWIW, still totally at a loss to verbalise what Des did that was obvtown, and virtually all the time when I pick up a towntell, I can't say what it was, I just sorta know it when I see it.

I would say when one talks about a towntell, you are basically betting that they cannot fake it as scum. In that sense, the skill of the player has to factor into it a fair bit; this is roughly what I alluded to about Yos2 earlier, I think. And there obviously has to be some conservatism, because the penalty for being wrong about a towntell is far higher than a scumtell, because you'll be moved towards lynching everyone

except

that person for the rest of the game. In that sense, I think they definitely have sharp edges and maybe need a bit of experience, but also that they definitely have a valid basis and can be a strong tool for the town.

[Kison]

the part of the deep south format I'm really attracted to, other than not getting stalled out on night phases, is how an unexpected kill in the middle of the game shakes things up.

I agree.

I'll send pm invite/reminders to any of you that are interested in playing again

*raises hand*

Vollkan: The last round of player reports you posted was very underwhelming compared to what I would have expected from town Vollkan.

I am, FWIW, still totally at a loss to verbalise what Des did that was obvtown, and virtually all the time when I pick up a towntell, I can't say what it was, I just sorta know it when I see it.

Curious, have you ever played with destructor before?

[Elmo]

Yeah, I played with him in Aoada, a mini theme before, where we were both town. I was in Open 55 with him aaages before that, but that hardly counted as played, lol.

My gut does tend to be a lot more productive (more accurate and more confidant of accuracy) with people I've played with before, now you mention it. I actually used to go back and read a couple of completed games of anyone in a game I was interested in, which was pretty helpful.

I personally think that gut is good at picking up a large number of very small tells. At least some of the time, that's probably why it's difficult to pin down to one specific thing. He wouldn't have to just fake one thing or ten things, but

everything

, I think is the idea.

[Guardian]

I'll send pm invite/reminders to any of you that are interested in playing again

*raises hand*

/in

[populartajo]

I'll send pm invite/reminders to any of you that are interested in playing again

*raises hand*

/in

If you consider me worthy.

[Raging Rabbit]

Count me /in.

[shaft.ed]

How about putting a 24hr delay on the kill, Adel? (Phrase it as 'in 24hrs time, or simultaneously with the lynch, whichever happens first).

That gives docs the chance to get in protects, trackers to get in their targets, and so on.

What about having a short night where Protective/Roleblocking etc roles make a night choice that remains throughout the following day? Investigative roles can go either at night or during the day or both.

Basically normal mafia except the scum have a daykill instead of a NK.


Oh and entertaining game, I didn't have time to play but the parts I've read have been fun.

[Raging Rabbit]

How about putting a 24hr delay on the kill, Adel? (Phrase it as 'in 24hrs time, or simultaneously with the lynch, whichever happens first).

That gives docs the chance to get in protects, trackers to get in their targets, and so on.

What about having a short night where Protective/Roleblocking etc roles make a night choice that remains throughout the following day? Investigative roles can go either at night or during the day or both.

Basically normal mafia except the scum have a daykill instead of a NK.


Oh and entertaining game, I didn't have time to play but the parts I've read have been fun.

I think that's pretty redundant, the best option seems to be a 24-48 hour period at the start of each day where choices can be submitted, at the end of which they all resolve together as they would on a normal night.

[curiouskarmadog]

how did you get strong town vibes from rolf? he refused to answer questions, was coy and was responsible for hanging me (town). I understand now why he stated des was so town" but didnt back it up with anything...because (and I was right) it was bullshit...he WAS just trying to draw a kill on des so he could block...it wasnt really based on anything. It was a good play actually, but it pinged my radar as scummy.

I dont know what exactly made me think rolf couldnt be scum now that I quick reread for an answer. It was pretty much gut combined with the idea that I didnt think rolfscum would have pushed "des is town" so hard with the possibility of a doctor in the setup. When you started attacking him I immediately sided with him since you cant blame us (the townies that supported your wagon) for considering your behaviour scummy towards him. There were some weak attacks and rolf was like fighting them not optimally but really really in a townie manner. Thats it basically.
Just curious, at some point, did you think des was scum?

No not at all...I thought Rofl was scum trying to either earn a buddy or attach himself to town....I couldnt see why rofltown would so blatantly support destown...I had many reasons to think that roflscum would support destown..

you say my reasoning was scummy and weak..yet you say that your read on rofl was based on gut...you see the silliness here?...you also forget my "attack" initally started on page 5 or 6...(it great later)...but the inital reason it was weak was because it was so early in the game..there was nothing to go on...I saw something small at first I thought was scummy

[DrippingGoofball]

/in

[vollkan]

/in

[Korts]

Count me /in, if I'm worthy. But I'd say no to changing the protective/blocking roles' effect. They work best when active immediately, IMO.

[roflcopter]

did i miss a link to the scum qt somewhere? i wanna see it.

[Adel]

did i miss a link to the scum qt somewhere? i wanna see it.

no, you didn't miss it, I didn't post it. If the scum team wants to share it they may, but someone pointed out (before this game) that sharing a scum-qt thread may make it harder for those players to win as scum in the future.