GM, I don't want a Dragon lynch because my main scumreads are pushing him. Being DDD and GL. GL hammered copper for trying harder to stay alive than DDD who was refusing to claim. I disagree that copper could have been a PR as Dragon asserts because prior to that he had already shown a willingness to accept his lynch being inevitable. So the hammer without a claim wasn't what was scummy, it was the fact that he was against a copper lynch no matter what and then hammered him when it came down to copper or DDD. He didn't do that when it was between copper and Dragon.
I am willing to work with Ironstove because I am pretty certain he's town based off yesterday. I'm not up for a lynch on you though which puts us back somewhat in things I'm willing to compromise on.
It's not that I'm not re-evaluating the gamestate. It's that I'm doing it away from the thread. I don't want to divulge my full reads. I don't feel like telling scum where to kill and where not to kill right now.
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:05 pm
by JaeReed
In post 1299, goodmorning wrote:I even went back in your ISO to look but I got back some distance before the D1 lynch and I still didn't see it. So please explain if you want to actually entice anyone off my preferred wagon and onto yours.
Feel free to use evidence from D2 in your argument as well.
--
also, where tf did jon go?
I'll try in a bit. Probably not tonight though. My emotions aren't stable.
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:42 am
by goodmorning
@Jae 1300:
1. Bussing is a thing. You're not infallible. "My scumread/s is/are on this wagon" is therefore an argument that does not and has not ever made any sense to me. (Also, what do you do if there are 2 wagons and you have 1 scumread on each??)
2. I'm really sick of this fallacy that giving reads just tells Scum where to kill. It doesn't. Scum aren't stupid - they can read between the lines as well as anyone else. They can look at the VCs and see who never gets voted. They can look at everyone's posts and see who never really gets questioned, who nobody posts things like "this post is maybe kinda weird" about. Besides which, you're already a universal townread - a prime target for Scum. You want to potentially die and leave no reads behind?
You know what reads do? Reads help Town know what everyone's thinking. Reads help us hold players to something, point out when they about-face for no good reason. Reads can make us reassess our own views of the game. Town has SO LITTLE INFO. Why deprive us of even more?
In post 1290, Dragonfire wrote:Of course I'm interested in the truth, and you can't say I'm not trying.
I can absolutely say that; look below in this same post where you admit to not paying attention to the arguments I'm making. You're already admitted to not paying anywhere near full attention to iron. I've correctly brought up that your opinion on me should've changed after your opinion about my initial post seemingly changed because I shouldn't be faulted for someone attacking a normal, catch-up post and it hasn't you only retrench instead of reevaluate. Those are not the actions of someone who is dynamically evaluating the game, those are the actions of scum.
In #1290, I admitted to misrepping you because I mistook something you said a long time before for something else. That's an honest mistake, everyone does it. Re: iron, why should I nitpick every single one of his posts? I don't think he's scum, and he rarely posts anything in-depth, so I don't feel there's any point in it. Also, copper's attack on your post was a reaction test, and you failed it.
I can see why you might accuse me of not paying attention, but you can't say I'm not trying.
In post 1290, Dragonfire wrote:Of course I'm interested in the truth, and you can't say I'm not trying.
I can absolutely say that; look below in this same post where you admit to not paying attention to the arguments I'm making. You're already admitted to not paying anywhere near full attention to iron. I've correctly brought up that your opinion on me should've changed after your opinion about my initial post seemingly changed because I shouldn't be faulted for someone attacking a normal, catch-up post and it hasn't you only retrench instead of reevaluate. Those are not the actions of someone who is dynamically evaluating the game, those are the actions of scum.
In #1290, I admitted to misrepping you because I mistook something you said a long time before for something else. That's an honest mistake, everyone does it. Re: iron, why should I nitpick every single one of his posts? I don't think he's scum, and he rarely posts anything in-depth, so I don't feel there's any point in it. Also, copper's attack on your post was a reaction test, and you failed it.
I can see why you might accuse me of not paying attention, but you can't say I'm not trying.
No, I still believe I can say that. If you were trying you would make fewer or no mistakes. If you were trying you'd demonstrate some curiosity about, ya know, something. For example, see how I questioned GM about her latest thing. I don't think she's scum but I'm still trying to figure out the game even as I think I have a good handle on it just in case I'm wrong. You? Nothing. Here, let me continue to demonstrate how town plays mafia so you can emulate it in your next game. How were copper's posts a reaction test and how did I fail it?
In post 1220, Accountant wrote:Do any of the ppl voting dragon have a response to copper's post about why dragon is town
I have a question for you: at the end of yesterday, just after copper was hammered, you had me at almost certain town; now I'm in your 'scum bucket'. What changed since then?
Can we all look at this
I am
certain
that Accountant is scum but no one will vote him with me. Dragon, you won't vote him with me. Why not? Did you get what you wanted from asking this question?
Accountant was WKing the DDD wagon and pushing Dragon yesterday. Now he's voting DDD and avoiding the Dragon today, with Dragon at L-1.
This DDD wagon is bad. D1 usually winds up with two wagons on town and it's terrible play to just push the other lynch on D2. I am positive scum are in {Dragon, Accountant, ironstove}, and that should be the lynchpool.
This is gl trying to get me mislynched. He knows this isnt my scumplay.
Ddd or dragon are the other scum, one is an innocent sucker
In post 263, copper223 wrote:1. Why are you voting me and not JaeReed if that's the case?
2. What makes him very likely to be town in your opinion?
Oh, he's voting JaeReed? Too bad, my townread on Jae is stronger than my urge to sheep. I still want to vote you though, because the arguments against you are good and I love pushing wagons.
Guilty is town due to personal experience playing with him as well as general tone
. ScumLion also has no incentive to push Jae(if they were going to side with one of GM vs Jae, it'd be easier to side with Jae and push the IC).
this post weirds me out, like first I'm Accountant's strongest townread and that's why he's voting copper (despite me not voting copper), but then his townread on Jae is stronger than his willingness to sheep me. and it generally reads kinda fake, like the way you'd craft a response as scum when you get caught in an inconsistency.
I have been scum with Accountant before so I feel like I could see him as scum making this kind of statement about my meta to conveniently townread me. What did you mean by "general tone", can you elaborate on that?
In post 321, Accountant wrote:If I was scum I'd just say I was sheeping GM, it would explain why I voted copper straight after she expressed disappointment that I unvoted.
By general tone I mean that it looks like you're not blending in and going for a list of standard reads + one oddball read to look town, like you usually do as scum
. Or rather, your oddball read(Jae) looks genuine instead of something thrown in to make it look like you're not blending in.
you've already given away that you know I'm town, and you're trying to use my hammer yesterday to prep a mislynch on me.
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:31 am
by GuiltyLion
and again, I've never said anything to Accountant like "my strategy as scum is to make standard reads + one oddball read". He pulled that out of nowhere.
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:41 pm
by ironstove
VOTE: GUILTY LION
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:49 pm
by RachMarie
VOTE COUNT 2.9
Debonair Danny DiPietro
(3) JaeReed, Accountant, Dragonfire
Dragonfire
(4) Jon_H61, Debonair Danny DiPietro, GuiltyLion, GoodMorning
L-1!
GuiltyLion
(1) ironstove
Not voting:
With 8 it takes 5 to lynch
The deadline is in (expired on 2016-09-26 09:49:24)
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:16 pm
by goodmorning
iron why don't you actually do something useful
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:13 pm
by JaeReed
In post 1302, goodmorning wrote:1. Bussing is a thing. You're not infallible. "My scumread/s is/are on this wagon" is therefore an argument that does not and has not ever made any sense to me. (Also, what do you do if there are 2 wagons and you have 1 scumread on each??)
2. I'm really sick of this fallacy that giving reads just tells Scum where to kill. It doesn't. Scum aren't stupid - they can read between the lines as well as anyone else. They can look at the VCs and see who never gets voted. They can look at everyone's posts and see who never really gets questioned, who nobody posts things like "this post is maybe kinda weird" about. Besides which, you're already a universal townread - a prime target for Scum. You want to potentially die and leave no reads behind?
You know what reads do? Reads help Town know what everyone's thinking. Reads help us hold players to something, point out when they about-face for no good reason. Reads can make us reassess our own views of the game. Town has SO LITTLE INFO. Why deprive us of even more?
1. Bussing in a newbie game is terribad, though. If I have 2 wagons and one scumread on each then I haven't pushed my scumreads hard enough for them to be a wagon of their own. If you're talking in a normal game then yes I 100% expect one scum at least to be bussing. Accountant taught me that quite well. But the situation you're talking about? That's generally where I find the person I think is most likely to be town and work with them.
2. I won't die. <3 But if you think that way then the same is true for town. They can read between the lines and look back through VCs as well. What do you think scum have of my reads at this moment? What do you think my reads might be? I haven't exactly been subtle about who I think is town or scum. In fact, I don't know if I stated this but I'd rather no lynch than lynch anywhere but DDD today. That's how certain I am that he will flip scum. Because the three wagons were not all on town, and Dragon could only be scum if it's with you, imo. Therefore, DDD.
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:47 pm
by goodmorning
1. Or both your scumreads are voting each other. Bussing in Newbies is as efficacious as bussing anywhere else. Also I've done some of the math on it and it's roughly equally common across game types (slightly less in Opens, slightly more in Larges, especially LTs, due to larger scumteams).
2. Perhaps not. Town has a harder time reading between the lines, because only Scum know what alignments everyone are, what their motivations behind posting certain things are likely to be. I don't know why you think Dragon couldn't be Scum with Acct or jon. No-lynching today would not be helpful. Even a mislynch would be better.
I don't know what makes you so sure the three wagons couldn't possibly have all been on Town, because it happens. I'll grant you that I agree they probably weren't in this case.
I don't want to rush you, but case soon please.
@GM I could start with here. Dragon replaced into the Asty slot. DDD is saying the scumteam is myself/dragon despite having no evidence as to why we're buddies, for one, and also having his "good vote" pile flip a town. He's not re-evaluating after being proven wrong on a read, and his questions to you earlier weren't ones likely to produce alignment indicative information. If anything, the questions were to draw attention to something that should not have attention drawn to.
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:42 pm
by JaeReed
In post 1312, goodmorning wrote:1. Or both your scumreads are voting each other. Bussing in Newbies is as efficacious as bussing anywhere else. Also I've done some of the math on it and it's roughly equally common across game types (slightly less in Opens, slightly more in Larges, especially LTs, due to larger scumteams).
2. Perhaps not. Town has a harder time reading between the lines, because only Scum know what alignments everyone are, what their motivations behind posting certain things are likely to be. I don't know why you think Dragon couldn't be Scum with Acct or jon. No-lynching today would not be helpful. Even a mislynch would be better.
I don't know what makes you so sure the three wagons couldn't possibly have all been on Town, because it happens. I'll grant you that I agree they probably weren't in this case.
I don't want to rush you, but case soon please.
1. Bussing in a newbie is incredibly bad play tbh. But eh that's personal opinion. Maybe I'll change my mind when I actually get to be scum. Also, you didn't say that both my scumreads were supposed to be voting each other in that scenario. Scum don't often cross-bus in newbies from my experience so far.
2. Your concern was that town wouldn't know my reads if I died tonight. So town would know my alignment by that stage and be able to figure out from there what my reads were through my actions/interactions.
The movements around the wagons, the fighting to try to get the lynch off copper and it still ending up on him... I could go on. Basically, the way D1 played out surrounding the lynch very strongly suggests that DDD is scum.
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:16 pm
by JaeReed
Spoiler:
In post 212, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:
And my final point on Jae in no way assumes Jae-town; Jae claimed malice from GM when incompetence would've equally explained things. I didn't attempt to explain if Jae's mistake in argumentation came from malice or incompetence but given the state of my other reads I find malice more likely.
This was an attempt to pocket the IC, which funnily enough seems to have worked. Why should I ever assume incompetence from a player that should be a stronger player than I am?
In post 213, copper223 wrote:Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't (the likely-hood increases if they feel threatened and my post before your catch-up was designed to do just that), what scum do a lot is ignore each other when they should be town-reading or scum-reading their opposite number based on their stances, in this case you should at the very least town-lean on each other for seeing the game the same way but nope, not a peep about GL's case on Jae.
Waiting so you're telling me you omitted critical details and nuance and instead favored brevity? Must be scum... or your point in that regards when directed at me was nonsense.
This is a blatant attempt to dodge while still trying to look like he's responding. What he said has nothing to do with what copper was talking about here. It's discredit mode.
In post 227, copper223 wrote:Pointing out the argument is fallacious is step one of the process, step two, which you completely omit, is to say why you think scum_Jae is more likely to come up with that explanation and that's what you omit, my deduction is the likeliest reason why is you already know their alignment and are taking it as a given so of course you don't need to speculate about that. I like that you're very concerned about that accusation not sticking, as opposed to elaborating on your thought process, makes it more likely I am onto something.
No, it's not
the
process, it's
your
process and not everyone plays the game the same way, you frickin' robot.
copper's point on this stands. DDD knows this and could only attack the method of play instead of providing an actual rebuttal. Basically, he just admitted to not actually evaluating my reasonings. Why? As copper said, my alignment is already known to him. It would have made it blatantly obvious he didn't believe I was scum because of the amount of hoops he'd have to jump through to make it more likely to come from scum than from town. So he didn't go into the potential motivations and thought processes there because he couldn't, because he wasn't truly evaluating the game from a town perspective.
In post 241, copper223 wrote:I explained why I posted in the way I did (it was a good opportunity to reaction test), I then explained what I did not like about what you wrote and I think it's scummy, I also did try to understand your thought process re. 227, you don't seem in a hurry to cooperate.
Why would I be interested in cooperating with you at this point? I believe you attacked me unjustly and you continue to lie about my behavior; from my perspective you have no interest in the truth.
Yeahhh copper never lied about DDD's behaviour. Next.
In post 227, copper223 wrote:Pointing out the argument is fallacious is step one of the process, step two, which you completely omit, is to say why you think scum_Jae is more likely to come up with that explanation and that's what you omit, my deduction is the likeliest reason why is you already know their alignment and are taking it as a given so of course you don't need to speculate about that.
In post 244, copper223 wrote:It's also pretty disingenuous of you to call me out for "attacking you before listening" during
a reaction test
but then claiming it's fine for you to do
the same
because of a 1 post "belief".
Busted. My first real post in the game is clearly not intended to be a serious case on anyone, it was a series of things that caught my eye to show my thought process, current thoughts on the state of the game and provide interaction points. And copper, like anyone with eyes and brain, knows that, as you can see him acknowledge in 244. But just a handful of posts ago he was pretending like it was some big sin that I didn't provide lengthy follow-up on one of the points I made WHEN THAT CLEARLY WASN'T THE POINT OF MY POST. He's pretending like my initial post was something it was clearly not to try and score points.
Didn't see him acknowledge that he knew that, so I'm pretty sure this is a misrep. He's pretending that copper knew his innermost thought process when he didn't. He's essentially making an argument out of nothing to try to make copper look bad.
In post 275, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:
Did this one leak out or do we still keep it amongst ourselves in the cool kid club? I scratched my chin over that as well; it doesn't reach the level of critical assessment that I'd usually demand but when I think about it more there's not a good weird that you'd mention, it's almost certainly setting the table for exactly what the Amished tell was found to catch.
Ast was in my initial "good votes" list, I think this solidly locks Dragonfire in it. Scum-copper is still a better vote for now though.
In post 287, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:
A) Has that tell been widely disseminated? Back in my day... err... only a select few of us knew and used it.
B) Here's the extent of the crime...
In post 268, Dragonfire wrote:I did slightly scumread DDD's predecessor oncilla based on gut feelings, but I should probably put that aside since he has been replaced. After all, my own predecessor said some quite weird things
Initially I wasn't sure "weird" was enough of a criticism to qualify for the tell. But upon pondering it further all the context for weird seems to be negative and I think it's a decent application of it.
DDD, stop talking about debunked tells and come squeeze copper.
Won't help; game will only progress if/when dreal, ST, GL, Jae, and Dragon show back up. I'm interested in what I need to do to convince them to vote copper and only they can tell me that. And the more we post the longer it takes and harder it is for them to get back in the game.
Note he wants to see what he can do to convince both myself and Dragon to vote for copper. To DDD, the scumpile was myself, dragon, copper. Personally, I don't try to convince my scumreads to vote with me because the partner is gonna be in there. He grouped myself and Dragon in with everyone else. His supposed townreads.
If you're thinking that it was mentioned by Accountant that it was debunked so he has us in there because he's re-evaluating or some bull like that... See next, which is a post made after this.
In post 311, Dragonfire wrote:I've heard people talking about Amished tells in a previous game, but wasn't entirely sure what they were. Are you scumreading me because I called Asty's posts "weird"? If so, that's a rather odd reason to scumread someone. To be absolutely honest, when I first messaged GiF with my request to replace Asty, I ISO'd him to see what he'd posted, and some of his earlier posts made me cringe. I'm not sure if you're confusing "weird" with "scummy"; by "weird" I meant "odd" or "strange" rather than "scummy".
In post 268, Dragonfire wrote:I did slightly scumread DDD's predecessor oncilla based on gut feelings, but I should probably put that aside since he has been replaced.
After all
, my own predecessor said some quite weird things
Bold is mine for emphasis; when you said "after all" you're drawing a parallel between oncilla's behavior and that of Asty and it isn't a positive one. Furthermore, I'm certainly not some hardliner who pretends every post has to be super serious and only focused on the game but calling your predecessor's posts "weird" is a little too game related for me to believe it was just casual, pointless chit-chat.
He is still on the whole Amished tell being a thing train. So no, he hasn't re-evaluated that. What's more, he's trying to convince Dragon that his throwaway comment about how he doesn't want to judge people based on their predecessor as he can't really make sense of his own is what makes Dragon scum. I'll restate that: He's trying to convince Dragon that he is scum.
When I interact with my scumreads it's because I have some level of doubt in the read. It's not to convince them that they're scum because that's a pointless endeavor regardless of their alignment. What it does serve is to make it look like you're doing something. I believe the point of this was to posture.
In post 327, GuiltyLion wrote:
might be scum, would lynch today. Some of the P->Q stuff he's posting reminds me of my scum play where I hone in on logic arguments and use that to deflect any notion of ~feelings~. However I'd like to see him respond to my questions and I'm more interested in Jae atm
Yeah, but a Jae lynch isn't happening today. Accountant seems solidly opposed and both GM and I like copper a fair amount more for scum.
In post 201, copper223 wrote:Because I haven't finished playing with GL and DDD to see how they are going to react.
A) How are a bog standard attack and scummy misreps a reaction test and how is that claim not just the last refuge of a scoundrel?
B) The fact that I now "know" it's a reaction test make my further reactions relatively worthless since I know I'm being tested though. Which makes it kind of curious how quick you were to publicly claim your nonsense as a reaction test because as soon as you claim that the test is effectively over.
Name dropping GM. Extra buddying, check.
As for the second bit, what copper said there (it's actually in post 355) was in response to Accountant asking copper to explain how they should have known he was up to something because of his tone and the way he responded to them in 201. That was, in context, not copper saying that he was continuing with the reaction test. It was him explaining why he felt Accountant should have realized he was up to something. And again, I don't think copper ever misrepped DDD, I think the opposite happened quite a few times, though. So there's that.
I could keep going for miles. In fact...
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:21 pm
by JaeReed
In post 332, goodmorning wrote:After rereading the game I'm pretty convinced both Scum are in {copper, Jae, Dragon} with DDD as the very unlikely side candidate.
I also would probably not vote Jae today though.
Even you re-evaluated based off new evidence and flips. I'll also point out this:
In post 344, copper223 wrote:I said so already, the last time we played it took me a day longer to lynch scum because she hard defended them and accused me of being scum (for a lot of the same things she is bringing up here) which totally fucked my reads up because I became convinced she had to be their buddy and that she was actually more likely to be scum because it could have still been a WK.
Which is pretty relevant right now, imo. Another gem from copper, where if you believe I'm town then DDD has to be scum:
In post 352, CrisP wrote:
I was not a fan of either of the main arguments at the time (Accountant vs Drealmerz and GM vs Jae) and prior to that I remember thinking I liked all of the newbies in the game, so I re-read the thread to see if I had missed something and Serra's comment about newbscum selectively picking what to mention as opposed to linearly going through the thread and trying to game solve everything popped up while I was reading Oncilla, so my focus shifted there.
Soon after he made his replacement post and that's when I decided to call whoever replaced scummy in his entrance post and see how he and everyone else would react to it (initially it was going to be something like: sucks to replace into a scum-slot eh?).
But GL was replaced before him and I've already stated what I did not like about his catch-up multiple times, the tone I used when claiming he was caught scum was totally off the top but I genuinely believed he was a likely candidate and when I read DDD's entrance where he fails to mention GL despite ending up voting for the same player the connection jumped up to me so I continued that line of inquiry.
It could still be valid, the problem (like any kind of associative) is that it relies on Jae being town, something I believed at the time, but I really have a problem with the way they reacted to GL's case and how they justified not being up to date nor reading the thread with being bummed town.
I call BS on Accountant thinking that I made all of that up, both the tone I used when scum-reading GL/DDD and the way I replied to him when he asked me about the scum-slip are pretty clear signs that I was up to something, now I understand someone may believe it was some weird scum gambit to demonstrate that I was doing something and not coasting, but not that I made the whole reaction test up after the fact.
@GM: Nope, wrong game, you self-hammered and mind gamer won the lylo after I replaced out.
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:33 pm
by goodmorning
Is your entire case going to be associative-based? Because I'm not about that life.
I'll go through and respond properly in the morning.
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:36 pm
by JaeReed
Now, I have a question. You know I'm shit at casing. You could have figured that out from Donner Party maf and also from my early case on you. Why would you then push me to case my scumread if not to just do the same thing as you did to Dragon when he cased him? (which boiled down to "nup" "lol" "you're wrong" without much actual rebuttal)
Like, I feel like you've just made me do the legwork so you can refuse to listen anyway. There's no point. I'm not lynching Dragon, because I think all the scum are in {jon, GL, DDD} and all of them are voting Dragon. IF Dragon ends up being scum, then obviously I'm wrong and jon was bussing. But that requires DDD to be town, and he's not imo.
Accountant's tone is different to when they were scum in the game we played fairly recently. Actually feels genuine. I've already mentioned this.
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:42 pm
by JaeReed
In post 1317, goodmorning wrote:Is your entire case going to be associative-based? Because I'm not about that life.
I'll go through and respond properly in the morning.
Nevermind that last post, you just answered that question. I knew it was a waste of time and energy. You didn't even look at it before handwaving it as associative-based. You're just going to go through it and ignore everything or laugh at it like you did with Dragon so what's the point?
There's plenty more I can say about his posts, but I'm not going to continue unless you prove that you're actually looking at it fairly and it's necessary. There's even stuff from this day phase.
This should be obvious to you, but basically copper saying "DDD and GL are the scum team, confirmed!" was the reaction test. You replied by immediately voting copper and attacking him instantaneously, instead of actually asking him why he thought you were scum. That's failing a reaction test in my book.
In post 1305, Accountant wrote:This is gl trying to get me mislynched. He knows this isnt my scumplay.
Ddd or dragon are the other scum, one is an innocent sucker
Can you actually answer my question please? Dodging it makes you look worse.
In post 1318, JaeReed wrote:Like, I feel like you've just made me do the legwork so you can refuse to listen anyway. There's no point. I'm not lynching Dragon, because I think all the scum are in {jon, GL, DDD} and all of them are voting Dragon. IF Dragon ends up being scum, then obviously I'm wrong and jon was bussing. But that requires DDD to be town, and he's not imo.
Why do you think GM is town? Because I'm not seeing it.
Also, jon, you said this a couple of pages back but didn't unvote me. Why's your vote still on me if you're almost convinced I'm town?
In post 1274, jon_h61 wrote:@Dragon looking at the VC, you've been on DDD since your first vote, but you took several VCs to vote. What makes you SO sure he's scum, in your own words. If you aren't scum, i absolutely don't see the case so please make it simple.
Reading back over 1257 almost convinces me you're Town. If I move my vote, it won't be to DDD though.
This should be obvious to you, but basically copper saying "DDD and GL are the scum team, confirmed!" was the reaction test. You replied by immediately voting copper and attacking him instantaneously, instead of actually asking him why he thought you were scum. That's failing a reaction test in my book.
See again, you get facts wrong. If copper's reaction test is limited to that post then the only thing I did in response is respond in kind with a vote and a pithy comment. I don't really use the phrase "reaction test" to describe anything I do because I think nearly everything is a reaction test. But my initial response was a reaction test even in a more limited sense of the expression to judge the veracity of copper's stance, to see if he was just throwing a brick at my head to see if I would duck... or if he really wanted to hit me in the head with a brick. It was only after that, when he started making bad arguments that I attacked him.
based off new evidence and flips. I'll also point out this:
The implication is that I have not re-evaluated based off new evidence and flips.
In post 1300, JaeReed wrote:It's not that I'm not re-evaluating the gamestate. It's that I'm doing it away from the thread. I don't want to divulge my full reads. I don't feel like telling scum where to kill and where not to kill right now.
But just a few posts ago, Jae made the argument that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Of course he uses this argument to shield himself but doesn't care to extend it to me despite equal possibility of application.
Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:44 am
by goodmorning
In post 1314, JaeReed wrote:1. Bussing in a newbie is incredibly bad play tbh. But eh that's personal opinion. Maybe I'll change my mind when I actually get to be scum. Also, you didn't say that both my scumreads were supposed to be voting each other in that scenario. Scum don't often cross-bus in newbies from my experience so far.
2. Your concern was that town wouldn't know my reads if I died tonight. So town would know my alignment by that stage and be able to figure out from there what my reads were through my actions/interactions.
The movements around the wagons, the fighting to try to get the lynch off copper and it still ending up on him... I could go on. Basically, the way D1 played out surrounding the lynch very strongly suggests that DDD is scum.
1. I mean, I said it was equally efficacious anywhere. I personally find bussing to be a very low-percentage play which is why I don't often engage in it even though everyone knows that by now. I can't tell you the rate of cross-bussing but I can tell you that 88% of successful D1 Newbie game wagons on Scum have a Scum on them, and that only a few of those are self-hammers. (Which stat kind of proves the previous point about bussing, now that I look at it.)
2. At this point I'm as certain as one can be before flips that you're Town, and I know three. I knew two before the post below.
Wagon analysis is the entire reason I started tracking VCA. It doesn't actually work very well. Remember who is in the majority responsible for wagons growing and dying - the
uninformed
majority.
RE: Spoiler: Calling me incompetent was meant to put me in his pocket? I almost lolhammered him to end D1.
You can reference my response to Dragon's case for whether I think DDD was misrepping copper at any point (spoiler: no).
I think you and I have really different views of the game in general and this game in particular.
In post 1318, JaeReed wrote:Now, I have a question. You know I'm shit at casing. You could have figured that out from Donner Party maf and also from my early case on you. Why would you then push me to case my scumread if not to just do the same thing as you did to Dragon when he cased him? (which boiled down to "nup" "lol" "you're wrong" without much actual rebuttal)
Like, I feel like you've just made me do the legwork so you can refuse to listen anyway. There's no point. I'm not lynching Dragon, because I think all the scum are in {jon, GL, DDD} and all of them are voting Dragon. IF Dragon ends up being scum, then obviously I'm wrong and jon was bussing. But that requires DDD to be town, and he's not imo.
Accountant's tone is different to when they were scum in the game we played fairly recently. Actually feels genuine. I've already mentioned this.
What else was there to say? If Dragon goes 'this is a misrep' and I go, 'no, he's responding to what copper said/meant, which is obviously X,' is that not actual rebuttal? Just went back and looked and I don't see a single place where I just went 'nope, not true' and moved on. Are you shit at casing? It was good enough to help get me dead. But if you're bad, you should practice maybe??????
It's not about refusing to listen. I'm trying very hard to listen. I just really want ANYBODY to give me one believable reason DDD could be Scum because
I don't see it
. There are three people sat on that wagon and none of you seem to me to have any good reason to be there. And arguing that he should have talked associatives, or arguing that copper said DDD had to be Scum if you were Town - those aren't believable or good to me. And I'll stress this - TO ME. Other people have different views and playstyles and that's fine.
So basically you don't think they can be Scum together because you think Acct's really Town. That's fine, if not exactly what I was asking. What about jon?
