TPFKAP's (lack of presence) wasn't great, either, but I'll give her a pass for now and assume she's being genuine in having shown up late.
By contrast, Nico's posting bothers me because she was clearly present at the start of the game, had at least a little sense of what was going on, and then disappeared. Honestly, I half-hoped adding my vote to the pile would Beetlejuice her and reveal that she's been lurking and deliberately holding back (in a way that would definitely be scummy). I guess it's possible she's busy or overwhelmed with the volume of the game so far, but right now her ISO just seems really off. I'd also support a policy lynch for lurking, no matter what reasons she may have.
Was this directed at me? If so, yes - I only post when I'm completely caught up.
In post 1231, Reasonably Rational wrote:I'm okay with hearing your self meta(not even utilized as a defense mechanism, but in general), because I don't know you and how you perceive your town/scum behavior is helpful to me in setting expectations.
-Cerb
I'll quote from my most recent Newbie game, where the IC asked a question that dovetails with this:
In post 8, nancy wrote:3) Do you prefer hunting mafia or manipulating town, and why?
I've only rolled scum once (in Micro 805.1), but I wouldn't say I really got the opportunity to
play
as scum, so I don't know which I prefer. Playing as town for me is as exciting as it is stressful, but the excitement tends to peak early (like, day 1) and the stress tends to just build after that. Sometimes, that stress sort of paralyzes me and blocks me from posting (I'm very conflict-averse, which is a trait I'm hoping Mafia can help me overcome), and theoretically playing as scum would be easier in that respect.
To expand on that, I've been thinking about why I seem to be so consistently scum read, and I think it's because my neuroticism bleeds through everything I post, and people pick up on that as "overly careful = scummy." I don't know if I'd be even more careful/neurotic as scum, or if I'd swing toward the opposite direction and be more relaxed, but hopefully eventually I'll find out. I know in the game I played off-site where I was recruited as scum, I basically dumped all my anxiety in the scum PT, which definitely changed my attitude in-thread (I got quieter and quieter as that game went on, too, IIRC).
Another thing that I think is making my meta different this game, is that playing off-site, where people were more friendly with each other, made me sort of look at the game and playerlist differently, from a collection of potential suspects (which I think is why I came in hotter my previous games, and what I think NSG has seen I'm lacking and dubbed a "minor scumtell") to a group of potential allies. This is also the first game where I'm really familiar with anyone, much less multiple people, which has also shifted my approach this game. And modding has shifted my perspective, too.
In post 1151, Reasonably Rational wrote:Is it more likely that Simon is a neutral doctor, or that the Alliance, who has multiple doctors and is likely scum, has a scum doctor.
Simon doesn't make sense as survivor. MAYBE as an Unlyncher for River, but definitely not survivor.
He doesn't give a shit about the Serenity as a whole at the beginning,
but his goal is more about keeping River alive than himself.
Book OTOH makes moderate sense with the claim. Institute doc would also be possible.
The bolded actually is what makes Simon perfect as a neutral doctor.
Setup spec tells me this might be a possible townslip.
Reevaluate later. Rest of ISO makes me smile. Thor's counterwagon is pants.
VOTE: Thor
It's been mod confirmed that flavor is not revealed until flip. I brought it up on page 1, Toog brought it up shortly after in response to me (both before sample role pm was posted). Then somewhere in the middle jumble of pages, Mod posted about it.
So what sets that aside as particularly towny?
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:24 am
by Jingle
In post 1298, Elsa Jay wrote:Jingle, I vote with allies, not with scum if we get to LyLo. If one of my partners happened to be a scum tho, that would be a different story. But at the moment I have no reason to beleive that any of my friends are scum. If YOU do, kindly tell everyone why.
Uh, that would require me to have a knowledge of your allies outside of "Tora is weirdly protective of Jay in a way that is unlikely to gain him towncred, which could mean that Tora's wincon is tied to Jay surviving and thus they might be Simon/River, but if so Jay is river and probably lying about being a doctor because why the fuck would River be a doctor."
Also, bullshit. If you have the opportunity to end the game as a survivor you will take it. If that means enabling a scum quickhammer on a town player in LYLO, that's what you'll do. Therefore, as a survivor who claimed D1 you have to be lynched the day before LYLO, which means that you have to townside in order to win, because every scum we kill delays your death another day. A day 1 survivor claim is basically betting that town will win the game without hitting LYLO.
You're town now, regardless of what your PM says, because you functionally CAN'T win with scum. Also, scum would be stupid to shoot you because you're a guaranteed mislynch.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:32 am
by Thor665
In post 1288, Jingle wrote:Hey Thor, is there a particular reason your beard is against the Nico wagon, or for the Jumble of Letters wagon, that I should be aware of?
It's best summed up here; https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10476959
The long version is "I kinda squint at an activity based attack when there is a blatant active lurker present, and see much town gain (and no town negativity) in creating a counter lurker lynch so there is info to mine post flip".
Help out?
In post 1289, Jingle wrote:FWIW, my impression is that he's the most reasonable and rational player in the game so far.
Cool, sure, I can agree with that as long as we ignore his 3p fearmongering - but I'll give you that as a debate point.
What has he done other than try to look reasonable and rational? Like, what actual game advancement behavior are you seeing? Because I've got nothing - we've had replacements who've done more, and yet RR is a constant presence, a reliable poster, and is talking a lot.
Think about that for a moment.
In post 1300, Flicker wrote:TPFKAP's (lack of presence) wasn't great, either, but I'll give her a pass for now and assume she's being genuine in having shown up late.
By contrast, Nico's posting bothers me because she was clearly present at the start of the game, had at least a little sense of what was going on, and then disappeared. Honestly, I half-hoped adding my vote to the pile would Beetlejuice her and reveal that she's been lurking and deliberately holding back (in a way that would definitely be scummy). I guess it's possible she's busy or overwhelmed with the volume of the game so far, but right now her ISO just seems really off. I'd also support a policy lynch for lurking, no matter what reasons she may have.
Considering that TPFKAP *literally Beetlejuiced* and also looks like an actual active lurk why are you not voting him and instead voting a slot you appear to agree looks like a likely flake out?
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:32 am
by Jingle
In post 1301, Chickadee wrote:It's been mod confirmed that flavor is not revealed until flip. I brought it up on page 1, Toog brought it up shortly after in response to me (both before sample role pm was posted). Then somewhere in the middle jumble of pages, Mod posted about it.
So what sets that aside as particularly towny?
Is brought up in a manner that looks like it was intended to be read as non game related, thus not reaching for towncred. Additionally, mod confirmed flavor was redacted because game is broken by mass flavor claim. Which means, scum flavor could very easily not be redacted, because they would have no incentive to claim flavor with town's flavor being redacted. This will be supported/refuted/made irrelevant by the first scum flip, but if I don't mark it down I will forget about it, so it gets noted that someone might look back and notice if it becomes relevant.
If you are correct in that you are first person to bring up the redactedness of flavor, that post becomes super important to look at as well, so thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:35 am
by Elsa Jay
Dont really understand this situation unless your scum yourself setting up for me to be hung when you need too.
Listen, the way the kills work means, by default, I literally can be killed anytime after I lose my BP. Townies can only lose 2 a cycle. I dont apply to that.
Functionally yes, if people were dicks in mylo and lynched me to give scum victory without a chance, fair enough. Clearly I'll say I won in spirit.
But Look. I'm helping town and the majority where I can. I'm pointing out scummy stuff even if I dont have as much investment in scum dying.
It's all about having allies and friends as a Survivor style role. So they don't decide to take you down with them.
In post 1301, Chickadee wrote:It's been mod confirmed that flavor is not revealed until flip. I brought it up on page 1, Toog brought it up shortly after in response to me (both before sample role pm was posted). Then somewhere in the middle jumble of pages, Mod posted about it.
So what sets that aside as particularly towny?
Is brought up in a manner that looks like it was intended to be read as non game related, thus not reaching for towncred. Additionally, mod confirmed flavor was redacted because game is broken by mass flavor claim. Which means, scum flavor could very easily not be redacted, because they would have no incentive to claim flavor with town's flavor being redacted. This will be supported/refuted/made irrelevant by the first scum flip, but if I don't mark it down I will forget about it, so it gets noted that someone might look back and notice if it becomes relevant.
If you are correct in that you are first person to bring up the redactedness of flavor, that post becomes super important to look at as well, so thank you for bringing this to my attention.
I guess my biggest point was that Porkens brought it up after the mod confirmed it, so it seems like an odd thing to bring up.
Or am I wrong about the timing?
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:42 am
by Jingle
Eh. TPFKAPOSOJGNKDL or whatever the name is seems more town from what's in ISO than NR. Also, possible towntell.
Why start counterwagoning there instead of on someone who is pushing one lurker over another? Are all such people above suspicion?
Agreed on the RR front. He has many mouthnoises, but nothing to suggest alignment from what I recall. I liked your presence on his wagon for your alignment a lot better than your presence on NR's.
PEdit: Dunno about timing, doing Iso's atm.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:46 am
by Jingle
In post 1305, Elsa Jay wrote:Dont really understand this situation unless your scum yourself setting up for me to be hung when you need too.
Okay. Let me give you a hypothetical:
3 scum. 3 town. 1 claimed survivor.
Player A says "Hey, look. I am teh scumzorz. Player B is leh townzorz. I am going to wanting to lynch player B. If you don't vote player B, we will shootings the youzorz tonight. If you vote to lynch the player B, the game will be over and you will be teh winningz." You are going to vote Player B. Because why the hell would you not? It wins you the game. Thus, you cannot be taken into LYLO from a town perspective. So the only way for you to win the game now is to work with the town. You ARE a town doc now. Deal with it.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:50 am
by Elsa Jay
Well when you put it that way... Your still wrong, lol.
I know the secrets of my role better then you do.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:54 am
by Jingle
While we're at it will you confirm whether your flavor is redacted?
In post 1301, Chickadee wrote:It's been mod confirmed that flavor is not revealed until flip. I brought it up on page 1, Toog brought it up shortly after in response to me (both before sample role pm was posted). Then somewhere in the middle jumble of pages, Mod posted about it.
So what sets that aside as particularly towny?
Is brought up in a manner that looks like it was intended to be read as non game related, thus not reaching for towncred. Additionally, mod confirmed flavor was redacted because game is broken by mass flavor claim. Which means, scum flavor could very easily not be redacted, because they would have no incentive to claim flavor with town's flavor being redacted. This will be supported/refuted/made irrelevant by the first scum flip, but if I don't mark it down I will forget about it, so it gets noted that someone might look back and notice if it becomes relevant.
If you are correct in that you are first person to bring up the redactedness of flavor, that post becomes super important to look at as well, so thank you for bringing this to my attention.
I guess my biggest point was that Porkens brought it up after the mod confirmed it, so it seems like an odd thing to bring up.
Or am I wrong about the timing?
Have checked timing. A50 added a sample PM in 225 or thereabouts. Publically confirmed that flavor is redacted in 1027.
TPFKAP posted flavor bit 20 minutes after beginning catchup, which implies that they should have reached page 9, especially as they reference things many pages later shortly afterwards. Conclusion: No townslip. Sad Jingle.
I also no longer care about whether your flavor is redacted Jay.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:09 am
by Jingle
Chick's flavor post is null, but 1306 feels town.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:09 am
by ruru
(expired on 2018-10-16 02:00:00) remain.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:10 am
by Flicker
In post 1303, Thor665 wrote:Considering that TPFKAP *literally Beetlejuiced* and also looks like an actual active lurk why are you not voting him and instead voting a slot you appear to agree looks like a likely flake out?
1) Where did TFPKAP Beetlejuice into the thread? I haven't interpreted any of her appearances like that.
2) I also wouldn't characterize her as an active lurker, at least not yet. Even if it was a case of active lurker vs non-active lurker, there's still slightly more in TFPKAP's ISO I like (post 738 and a general gut feeling).
3) I don't agree Nico's a likely flake out, just that it's a possibility.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:18 am
by Jingle
@Ruru: you have two lines of TFPKAP
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:39 am
by ruru
(expired on 2018-10-16 02:00:00) remain.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:46 am
by Thor665
In post 1307, Jingle wrote:Eh. TPFKAPOSOJGNKDL or whatever the name is seems more town from what's in ISO than NR. Also, possible towntell.
I have such a reverse opinion of all of that from what you do.
What in that ISO is town seeming to you?
In post 1307, Jingle wrote:Why start counterwagoning there instead of on someone who is pushing one lurker over another? Are all such people above suspicion?
They are not.
One of them, for example, is TPFKAP.
So...
In post 1307, Jingle wrote:Agreed on the RR front. He has many mouthnoises, but nothing to suggest alignment from what I recall. I liked your presence on his wagon for your alignment a lot better than your presence on NR's.
Vote RR and I'll move back, I was lonely and it was going nowhere so it wasn't doing me a lot of good.
Stop half wagon analyzing.
In post 1314, Flicker wrote:1) Where did TFPKAP Beetlejuice into the thread? I haven't interpreted any of her appearances like that.
2) I also wouldn't characterize her as an active lurker, at least not yet. Even if it was a case of active lurker vs non-active lurker, there's still slightly more in TFPKAP's ISO I like (post 738 and a general gut feeling).
3) I don't agree Nico's a likely flake out, just that it's a possibility.
2. I can't argue with 'gut feeling' and I'll agree you noted his best post by far. If there had been any follow up on that or his stated reads in 962 or even just anything at all resembling that he gives a damn to find scum I'd be on board with you. But that is an empty and super shallow ISO despite being much larger than other ISOs.
3. Sounds like a po-tay-to po-tah-to to me. Want to make a wager on it? If the slot flakes you promise to sheep me the rest of the day, and if it doesn't I'll agree with your gut read on TKASAGSP? I'm game if you are.
2. I can't argue with 'gut feeling' and I'll agree you noted his best post by far. If there had been any follow up on that or his stated reads in 962 or even just anything at all resembling that he gives a damn to find scum I'd be on board with you. But that is an empty and super shallow ISO despite being much larger than other ISOs.
3. Sounds like a po-tay-to po-tah-to to me. Want to make a wager on it? If the slot flakes you promise to sheep me the rest of the day, and if it doesn't I'll agree with your gut read on TKASAGSP? I'm game if you are.
1. Those two posts are less than 45 minutes apart, with another post from a few hours earlier on the same page. It's conceivable that TPFKAP skimmed the thread, saw a multiball reference, posted quickly, had to leave for a few hours, then came back and hung around for an hour. It would have been a Beetlejuice IMO if the posts were more hours or pages apart, or the first post in this sequence was replying to being voted/talked about.
2. Point taken about size-to-substance ratio.
3. I'm tempted, but I'll only agree if it changes to you sheeping me all day if Nico doesn't flake instead. Otherwise, it's too uneven of a deal.
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:11 am
by Thor665
1. Do you disagree with me that it's odd that he is posting with confusion about multiball but apparently hanging around and active reading what's happening? You don't see any suspicion with that as a playstyle choice?
it seems to be site wide and i would guess it's really not something you should factor into your read on the slot
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:26 am
by Flicker
In post 1319, Thor665 wrote:1. Do you disagree with me that it's odd that he is posting with confusion about multiball but apparently hanging around and active reading what's happening? You don't see any suspicion with that as a playstyle choice?
Any problem I have with this playstyle is connected to the lack of backreading, which I find confusing. I'm not sure what people gain out of engaging with people that makes it so good for scumhunting they don't need to also catch up on everything that's happened. But apparently that's not AI, since some people just don't backread (including you this game, apparently)?
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:33 am
by northsidegal
In post 1300, Flicker wrote:To expand on that, I've been thinking about why I seem to be so consistently scum read, and I think it's because my neuroticism bleeds through everything I post, and people pick up on that as "overly careful = scummy." I don't know if I'd be even more careful/neurotic as scum, or if I'd swing toward the opposite direction and be more relaxed, but hopefully eventually I'll find out. I know in the game I played off-site where I was recruited as scum, I basically dumped all my anxiety in the scum PT, which definitely changed my attitude in-thread (I got quieter and quieter as that game went on, too, IIRC).
I would really prefer not to, just because I try not to connect different accounts as much as possible. I'm not sure it would be all that helpful anyway, unless you have a lot of time on your hands - it's a few thousand nested comments, with no ISOs, and everyone changes their usernames at will to correspond with their current roleplay. I looked over some of it now to see if I could make heads or tails of it, and it's just a mess.
If you were still interested post-game, I could send you the link privately?
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:34 pm
by Nancy Drew Shogunate
I like jingle and I especially like jingle's push on thor.
thor's case against porkens seems like stretching things to fit a read instead of thor genuinely reading porkens' behaviour as scummy. porkens' lurking is straight up NAI and he didn't display any confusion about multiball, he just apparently didn't know who was talking about it first. his posting feels natural to me and I agree with jingle that his casual mention of no flavour is a towntell, and if it isn't it's definitely not scummy. his entrance scumreading 3 players and making a team feels like town!porkens and I see nothing otherwise that makes me doubt he is town here.
