In post 1275, ItalianoVD wrote:Okay so I want to give my thoughts on all the ISO’s I’ve done in connection with the banana/shelly slot. First:
UNVOTE: callforjudgment
Of course I will be referring to 1145 & 1170. I placed them in thread as reference for not only myself, but for the town as well. Not sure if anyone else has read them both and has come up with their own theories/opinions, but that was the purpose. I have a lot to get into, so this is the first post of many.
There were a lot of mentions to the banana/shelly slot; everyone in the playerlist mentioned the slot at least once. However when it came to actual interactions (speaking directly to the slot) I grouped them like so:
~ interactions for the sake of having interactions; no follow up
~ interactions to get a read; sort the slot, answer questions, push, etc.
~ no interactions at all
Now those who fit the first category are (Taylor, Looker, RCEnigma). Those who fit the second category are (Walter, myself, Raya, Nosferatu, geraintm, gamma, callforjudgment) Those in the last category is (Frogsterking)
I also did an iso on the banana/shelly slot and noticed something: In 82 Banana sort of gives callforjudgment a pass for his long post and doesn’t scumread him. In 691 shellyc said she saw a town mindset from call.
Why was this slot the only one that saw callforjudgment as possible town, while pretty much everyone else saw him as scummy or scumread him? Now I don’t know about Banana, but Shelly has precedence for bussing her partner and I don’t see her buddying up at all. Although the slot didn’t actually vote for call I think if call was scum I believe both Banana and shelly would have either distanced or bussed or at the very least placed him down as a scumread, should he flip (given he was getting heat for some time). This makes me think that callforjudgment is actually town.
I've also been getting that feeling from cfj in general too. Maybe a bit biased but why defend me and start a counter wagon when I'd be an easy miselim and not many questions would be asked. He even kinda set it up by saying he was worried about me trying to buddy him. Doesn't make much sense as scum.
i have an explanation! youre scum with cfj. explains all of everything
Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:46 pm
by WaltertheDunce10
I agree with taylor
Raya what made you change your mind?
Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:30 pm
by geraintm
In post 1233, RCEnigma wrote:
Add in the night kill, likely to specifically set up a walter elim, and cfj you are part of the tandem pushing these counter-town angles.
if you think scum were hunting for walter today, why wasn't there a bigger push early doors? I think your guess on scum wanting to eliminate walter isn't right
In post 1252, callforjudgement wrote:
I don't think it's unreasonable for a townie to have soft-defended the shelly slot.
I agree that the nightkill may have been to set up Walter to look bad. (This doesn't necessarily mean that Walter is town; scum may have wanted him to look bad from the nightkill so that they could use the argument "the nightkill is setting Walter up to look bad" to defend him.)
as you were one of the people who didn't vote shelly , that is mighty convenient for you
and you agreeing here that walter was set up to look bad - I could be wrong but I don't remember any push on walter. why are you and enigma pushing this idea that scum tried to get walter killed?
CFJ post 1264 makes sense to me
@ italiano - that was an awful lot of effort to get to the point that you read CFJ as town. you had to analyse everyone's actions with shelly, and then shelly actions with them. and all you get is CFJ is likely town? i'm not the only one who thinks you have reached. you answer might be right, but you have not got there is a good way.also, 1277/1278 - you are all too clever for me
In post 1283, Frogsterking wrote:I view Raya and CFJ as the enemy, and CFJ must be eliminated first because he's the loudest and most active.
oh, I would have flipped that, kill the quiet one. always harder late on to kill qiet ones, loud ones will talk themselves into a mistake
In post 1279, ItalianoVD wrote:Anyone come to a similar conclusion about callforjudgment in 1275? Or am I off in this?
That’s not really part of my read on him at all
My heart and my gut say to townread cfj, but my head is telling me the few bits of potentially scummy behavior from him are worth pursuing
So I’d vote him around deadline but I’d rather listen to my gut vs. my head
This post looks like horse crap. Shoot Gamma up to FoS #2.
Raya it's your insistence on voting Walter that make me read you as scum or stubborn townie.
agree with this, this is one of those posts I hate from people where they give themselves weasel room to join a wagon at a later date.
having aquick look at raya's posts, see if I can get a handle on them. this may not make sense unil the end and be abit random. i'm specifically looking to see what their interactions are with CFJ as others are convinced by that link
@Raya: Did you ever look into Walter’s meta? (224). And did you ever go back? (299)
And am I the only one who DIDN’T think Frogster was in a neighborhood?
I skimmed some Walter meta and I didnt go back through cfj
hmm, avoids CFJ
post 1064 - calls out CFJ for deflection
1065 - dislikes CFJ again
1099 - seeing CFJ as town
1156 - says CFJ is wrong
(most of their posts are dealing with the claim and wanting it sorted)
1294 - agrees with italiano that CFJ feels town
1296 CFJ is town
overall, their posts have been on a fairly limited number of topics. the claim and wanting it sorted, CFJ and the slow role of switching from seeing them as scummy to town, and insistence that walter is scum (but raya is voting for RCenigma, so I dunno why in my head I thought they were voting walter and they wer etheir biggest scum read).
their read of CFJ as scum never felt...strong...but very vocalised....and now is town but with weak reasons. if someone was setting themselves up to distance from their partner, I can see why it would be read that way.
In post 908, callforjudgement wrote:At this point it's very unlikely that Italiano is scum; a Friendly Neighbour claim is hard to substantiate as scum (you have to keep claiming to target your buddies and/or the nightkill), and easy to prove as town (that's literally what the role does, proving itself as town). It would be helpful to verify that the claim has actually been substantiated before day ends, though, otherwise it'll lead us to be paranoid into future days.
If scum knew that Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour, that would make him an obvious nightkill choice. So it's also useful to know whether Walter knew Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour prior to the end of Night 1; if he did, that somewhat reduces the chance that Walter is scum.
@Tayl0r: mods (and playerlists!) differ on how much utility a T/S neighbourhood gives to town and/or scum. Some mods think that such a neighbourhood helps town (you can quiz your neighbour in the PT, figure out they're scum, and sometimes even figure out their buddies by the way they talk over the game with you); I once caught 2 out of 3 members of a scumteam because I was in a neighbourhood with one of them. But recently, players have had a tendency to assume that neighbourhoods are T/T, so some mods/reviewers will balance a T/S neighbourhood as though it helps scum and put in extra town power to compensate.
This is a good post. I definitely agree we should have the receiver of the FN message claim by the end of the day so we can confirm italiano is town. And it's also important to know if Walter knew about Italiano being the FN.
I did not know about Italiano being the FN prior to N1.
I only knew it when he posted it in thread here.
At what point did he tell you the target of his role?
In post 1141, Raya36 wrote:
Walter for the non-committal start and weak pushes such as this pushing the fake claim early game to be PR fishing.
RCE for the fakeclaim thing that drew out town PRs and had 0 benefit for town. He also seemed overdefensive on that topic.
I really need to read and get back into the game because I'm very detached right now
Are you saying that Walter's scum because he didn't push hard enough the thing that you're pushing?
In post 1142, Raya36 wrote:Also I 100% agree that whoever got the FN message should either claim or be revealed by Italiano today and preferably not too late in the day. There is absolutely no reason for town to hold this info back.
I also am concerned about the Shelly wagon, I just haven't had the time to think too much into it.
In post 1144, Raya36 wrote:What good does it do to hold it back? Claiming to receive the message doesn't make you a target. It doesn't make Italiano any more of a target. It doesn't out any extra info to scum outside of confirming Italiano. Claiming does take away any suspicion on Italiano and helps town in that way.
I think Italiano's lying. Two fakeclaims and a half-claim.
I'm starting to think it's all a lie too. Although most likely a lie coming from town.
Well then, can you clarify?
You said RCE was scum for PR fishing, but said Walter was probably scum for weak pushes and saying that fakeclaims were PR fishing.
Why would the lie be more likely coming from town?
In post 1190, Looker wrote:Should we split the wagons between you and Raya? You said you weren't overly* concerned with being elim'd
Do what you do. Don't get caught being the guy asking to be on the wagon though. It's going to look worse when I flip.
I really don't care at this point. This really isn't even fun anymore.
In post 1200, RCEnigma wrote:Town has no reason to rely on Italiano being confirmed right now or not. Or even at all today.
If Italiano is FN then cool, he gets confirmed today and the day continues as normal. Let's say his target doesn't claim today, scum has to kill him tonight or he hits town tomorrow. It's not like he's in danger of being lynched even without the claim.
Italiano was a waste of time, you are a waste of time, this game is a waste of time. If losing shelly made scum want to troll, then fine, but I'm not going to entertain it. He should've claimed a long time ago, and his fictitious target should have, too.
In post 1200, RCEnigma wrote:Town has no reason to rely on Italiano being confirmed right now or not. Or even at all today.
If Italiano is FN then cool, he gets confirmed today and the day continues as normal. Let's say his target doesn't claim today, scum has to kill him tonight or he hits town tomorrow. It's not like he's in danger of being lynched even without the claim.
coming back from overnight.
man this game is weird.
but rcenigma, what do you mean by "or he hits town tonight". there is no garuentee that the person he targets is town from my understanding of the role
What's the likelihood that RCE and Italiano have fakeclaimed their ways into a corner?
In post 1226, ItalianoVD wrote:I don’t like the doubt being thrown around the town right now and it’s so obvious that it’s being done by scum. We were on track to look at the information from the scumflip. I’m pretty sure that’s the direction we were going in today, but misdirection is a powerful tool.
hey, lets not just blame people concerned about your reluctance as derailing today. Rcenigma did a pretty good job too
Italiano's just one person - he can't decide which direction the town is going. All of this random bullshit is weird.
Out of these I’d rather we come back to Geraint. I’d also be okay with Italiano, but Shelly and Walter are townreads (at least, I was townreading Banana)
Does scum waffle here with a partner being the leading wagon?
Of the 4 remaining offwagon slots, coming into the day I had sjreaver/looker as the most likely town in that grouping. But lookers reasoning and timing on gerain is a lot less natural than gammas in general + a couple of town indicators in their iso puts gamma up there for now.
Looker has been on a downward trajectory since repping in but I don't know if that's necessarily scummy or if it's just him wanting to be contrarian.
What has Gamma done that's so town
What's contrarian about me
I think you're bluffing.
In post 1244, RCEnigma wrote:Hmm,I've got a theory actually but I still really want Raya out of here before I dive into that rabbit hole.
But then you dove into the rabbit hole two posts later...
Not exactly but I do have a preferance of town hunting. I'm just particularly detached from this game. I'll get on that reads list you asked for sometime today and I'll iso some players I'm blurry on. Maybe I'll get back into the game that way.
In post 1141, Raya36 wrote:
Walter for the non-committal start and weak pushes such as this pushing the fake claim early game to be PR fishing.
RCE for the fakeclaim thing that drew out town PRs and had 0 benefit for town. He also seemed overdefensive on that topic.
I really need to read and get back into the game because I'm very detached right now
Are you saying that Walter's scum because he didn't push hard enough the thing that you're pushing?
In post 1142, Raya36 wrote:Also I 100% agree that whoever got the FN message should either claim or be revealed by Italiano today and preferably not too late in the day. There is absolutely no reason for town to hold this info back.
I also am concerned about the Shelly wagon, I just haven't had the time to think too much into it.
In post 1144, Raya36 wrote:What good does it do to hold it back? Claiming to receive the message doesn't make you a target. It doesn't make Italiano any more of a target. It doesn't out any extra info to scum outside of confirming Italiano. Claiming does take away any suspicion on Italiano and helps town in that way.
I think Italiano's lying. Two fakeclaims and a half-claim.
I'm starting to think it's all a lie too. Although most likely a lie coming from town.
Well then, can you clarify?
You said RCE was scum for PR fishing, but said Walter was probably scum for weak pushes and saying that fakeclaims were PR fishing.
Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:53 am
by ItalianoVD
@Frogsterking: Could you tell me why you went after geraintm so hard for suspecting you on Day 1, but did not even look Banana’s way when he voted for you in 218. I would think you would have said something to Banana, especially given how hard you did interact with geraintm for 769.
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:13 am
by callforjudgement
Walter, do you still have a scumread on Looker? Or do you now think me+Raya is the only possibility?
Are there any other slots you're considering? The only scumread-like thing you've expressed all D2 on anyone but me, Raya and Looker is a dislike of RCE's and Tayl0r's claims.
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:11 am
by WaltertheDunce10
In post 1309, callforjudgement wrote:Walter, do you still have a scumread on Looker? Or do you now think me+Raya is the only possibility?
Are there any other slots you're considering? The only scumread-like thing you've expressed all D2 on anyone but me, Raya and Looker is a dislike of RCE's and Tayl0r's claims.
It might be looker, it seems he lurks more than the game I was with him in.
He is selfvoting. Why looker are you being such a weird pita.
Anti-town and possible scum.
Still think you /raya have a good chance of being a red .
I am not sure I exactly agree with 1275of Italianos.
I agree with gerain's assessment of raya and you.
I do have gamma as null and a poss if cfj flips green.
Nos I had a slight tr on earlier because of the vote but it has faded.
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:24 am
by geraintm
Looker is the sort of person I find infuriating to play with. Not mafia is another, I cannotnever get reads on their actions. There is a difference between not wanting them in the game and thinking they are scum though. Sometimes
In post 908, callforjudgement wrote:At this point it's very unlikely that Italiano is scum; a Friendly Neighbour claim is hard to substantiate as scum (you have to keep claiming to target your buddies and/or the nightkill), and easy to prove as town (that's literally what the role does, proving itself as town). It would be helpful to verify that the claim has actually been substantiated before day ends, though, otherwise it'll lead us to be paranoid into future days.
If scum knew that Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour, that would make him an obvious nightkill choice. So it's also useful to know whether Walter knew Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour prior to the end of Night 1; if he did, that somewhat reduces the chance that Walter is scum.
@Tayl0r: mods (and playerlists!) differ on how much utility a T/S neighbourhood gives to town and/or scum. Some mods think that such a neighbourhood helps town (you can quiz your neighbour in the PT, figure out they're scum, and sometimes even figure out their buddies by the way they talk over the game with you); I once caught 2 out of 3 members of a scumteam because I was in a neighbourhood with one of them. But recently, players have had a tendency to assume that neighbourhoods are T/T, so some mods/reviewers will balance a T/S neighbourhood as though it helps scum and put in extra town power to compensate.
This is a good post. I definitely agree we should have the receiver of the FN message claim by the end of the day so we can confirm italiano is town. And it's also important to know if Walter knew about Italiano being the FN.
I did not know about Italiano being the FN prior to N1.
I only knew it when he posted it in thread here.
At what point did he tell you the target of his role?
In post 1141, Raya36 wrote:
Walter for the non-committal start and weak pushes such as this pushing the fake claim early game to be PR fishing.
RCE for the fakeclaim thing that drew out town PRs and had 0 benefit for town. He also seemed overdefensive on that topic.
I really need to read and get back into the game because I'm very detached right now
Are you saying that Walter's scum because he didn't push hard enough the thing that you're pushing?
In post 1142, Raya36 wrote:Also I 100% agree that whoever got the FN message should either claim or be revealed by Italiano today and preferably not too late in the day. There is absolutely no reason for town to hold this info back.
I also am concerned about the Shelly wagon, I just haven't had the time to think too much into it.
In post 1144, Raya36 wrote:What good does it do to hold it back? Claiming to receive the message doesn't make you a target. It doesn't make Italiano any more of a target. It doesn't out any extra info to scum outside of confirming Italiano. Claiming does take away any suspicion on Italiano and helps town in that way.
I think Italiano's lying. Two fakeclaims and a half-claim.
I'm starting to think it's all a lie too. Although most likely a lie coming from town.
Well then, can you clarify?
You said RCE was scum for PR fishing, but said Walter was probably scum for weak pushes and saying that fakeclaims were PR fishing.
Why would the lie be more likely coming from town?
In post 1190, Looker wrote:Should we split the wagons between you and Raya? You said you weren't overly* concerned with being elim'd
Do what you do. Don't get caught being the guy asking to be on the wagon though. It's going to look worse when I flip.
I really don't care at this point. This really isn't even fun anymore.
In post 1200, RCEnigma wrote:Town has no reason to rely on Italiano being confirmed right now or not. Or even at all today.
If Italiano is FN then cool, he gets confirmed today and the day continues as normal. Let's say his target doesn't claim today, scum has to kill him tonight or he hits town tomorrow. It's not like he's in danger of being lynched even without the claim.
Italiano was a waste of time, you are a waste of time, this game is a waste of time. If losing shelly made scum want to troll, then fine, but I'm not going to entertain it. He should've claimed a long time ago, and his fictitious target should have, too.
In post 1200, RCEnigma wrote:Town has no reason to rely on Italiano being confirmed right now or not. Or even at all today.
If Italiano is FN then cool, he gets confirmed today and the day continues as normal. Let's say his target doesn't claim today, scum has to kill him tonight or he hits town tomorrow. It's not like he's in danger of being lynched even without the claim.
coming back from overnight.
man this game is weird.
but rcenigma, what do you mean by "or he hits town tonight". there is no garuentee that the person he targets is town from my understanding of the role
What's the likelihood that RCE and Italiano have fakeclaimed their ways into a corner?
In post 1226, ItalianoVD wrote:I don’t like the doubt being thrown around the town right now and it’s so obvious that it’s being done by scum. We were on track to look at the information from the scumflip. I’m pretty sure that’s the direction we were going in today, but misdirection is a powerful tool.
hey, lets not just blame people concerned about your reluctance as derailing today. Rcenigma did a pretty good job too
Italiano's just one person - he can't decide which direction the town is going. All of this random bullshit is weird.
Out of these I’d rather we come back to Geraint. I’d also be okay with Italiano, but Shelly and Walter are townreads (at least, I was townreading Banana)
Does scum waffle here with a partner being the leading wagon?
Of the 4 remaining offwagon slots, coming into the day I had sjreaver/looker as the most likely town in that grouping. But lookers reasoning and timing on gerain is a lot less natural than gammas in general + a couple of town indicators in their iso puts gamma up there for now.
Looker has been on a downward trajectory since repping in but I don't know if that's necessarily scummy or if it's just him wanting to be contrarian.
What has Gamma done that's so town
What's contrarian about me
I think you're bluffing.
In post 1244, RCEnigma wrote:Hmm,I've got a theory actually but I still really want Raya out of here before I dive into that rabbit hole.
But then you dove into the rabbit hole two posts later...
Gamma's just trying to find a way to be off-wagon again.
VOTE: Looker
Nah I’m not buying this. You chose to replace in. You saw the playerlist. You could’ve said “nah I’m not feeling this one” and moved on, but you didn’t. Get over yourself and play the game or replace out.
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:53 am
by ItalianoVD
In post 1302, geraintm wrote:@ italiano - that was an awful lot of effort to get to the point that you read CFJ as town. you had to analyse everyone's actions with shelly, and then shelly actions with them. and all you get is CFJ is likely town? i'm not the only one who thinks you have reached. you answer might be right, but you have not got there is a good way.also, 1277/1278 - you are all too clever for me
Yeah there is more, but I want to clear up a few things first. Callforjudgment seems to be the first piece to where I think I’m going.
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:49 am
by Frogsterking
In post 1308, ItalianoVD wrote:@Frogsterking: Could you tell me why you went after geraintm so hard for suspecting you on Day 1, but did not even look Banana’s way when he voted for you in 218. I would think you would have said something to Banana, especially given how hard you did interact with geraintm for 769.
In post 1279, ItalianoVD wrote:Anyone come to a similar conclusion about callforjudgment in 1275? Or am I off in this?
That’s not really part of my read on him at all
My heart and my gut say to townread cfj, but my head is telling me the few bits of potentially scummy behavior from him are worth pursuing
So I’d vote him around deadline but I’d rather listen to my gut vs. my head
This post looks like horse crap. Shoot Gamma up to FoS #2.
Raya it's your insistence on voting Walter that make me read you as scum or stubborn townie.
scum or stubborn townie isnt much of a read. like what are the odds that someone is either scum or town? pretty sure its 95% or so in this setup. why should we think scum rather than town? my PoE is now raya, cfj, and froggy
that's a very peculiar PoE, any pairing of those iirc has a fair amount of distancing, do you think that means anything?
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:56 am
by Gamma Emerald
In post 1298, ItalianoVD wrote:He said he knew who I targeted, which he does. What I was saying was he doesn't know why I'm holding back on revealing the target.
fair enough
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:59 am
by Gamma Emerald
In post 1302, geraintm wrote:agree with this, this is one of those posts I hate from people where they give themselves weasel room to join a wagon at a later date.
it's only if nothing I would rather vote is around. Since you say this, what do you make of my similar statement from D1?
In post 1308, ItalianoVD wrote:@Frogsterking: Could you tell me why you went after geraintm so hard for suspecting you on Day 1, but did not even look Banana’s way when he voted for you in 218. I would think you would have said something to Banana, especially given how hard you did interact with geraintm for 769.
I was on tilt that morning.
Okay, I guess I should say why DIDN’T you go after Banana the same way you did geraintm?
In post 1308, ItalianoVD wrote:@Frogsterking: Could you tell me why you went after geraintm so hard for suspecting you on Day 1, but did not even look Banana’s way when he voted for you in 218. I would think you would have said something to Banana, especially given how hard you did interact with geraintm for 769.
I was on tilt that morning.
Okay, I guess I should say why DIDN’T you go after Banana the same way you did geraintm?
Banana didn't put me on tilt.
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:57 pm
by Frogsterking
@Looker
Why did you choose the name Looker for your account?
I thought it could be a play on words for "Lurker" for an alt or be a reference to seeing the truth and game solving in a bravura way.
In post 1279, ItalianoVD wrote:Anyone come to a similar conclusion about callforjudgment in 1275? Or am I off in this?
That’s not really part of my read on him at all
My heart and my gut say to townread cfj, but my head is telling me the few bits of potentially scummy behavior from him are worth pursuing
So I’d vote him around deadline but I’d rather listen to my gut vs. my head
This post looks like horse crap. Shoot Gamma up to FoS #2.
Raya it's your insistence on voting Walter that make me read you as scum or stubborn townie.
scum or stubborn townie isnt much of a read. like what are the odds that someone is either scum or town? pretty sure its 95% or so in this setup. why should we think scum rather than town? my PoE is now raya, cfj, and froggy
Sometimes townies will just tunnel on one particular player for an entire game, sometimes scum will imitate this behavior because it's easy to hide in and convenient for them. I believe she's doing one or the other, which makes her an OK lynch.
Also, I wasn't aware any third parties are possible in this setup.
