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Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:30 am
by Dumb and Dumber
In post 1297, Green Crayons wrote:What does this mean--you're not going to defend against people voting you? Leaving it to Skitter? Or just a mea culpa?
Neither, I am beginning to believe that defence against *votes* isn't useful
Also, zen playstyle, etc
Salsabil is bleeding obvtown.
Gamma, do you disagree with Lilith that her game here is wildly different from the two scumgames of hers you brought up? Can you describe the similarities?
-Dumbass
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:31 am
by Infinity 324
Ok it took me a while to get here but I agree
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:34 am
by Dumb and Dumber
Hey Infinity, I was curious about something some time ago. If you have time, could you link some random towngames and scumgames of yours? (It's ok if you can't, I can go to your profile and search)
Also I'd like to be called 'the dumbass', thanks.
-Dumbass
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:37 am
by Infinity 324
In terms of scumgames, I only have 4+ year old ones and micros that aren't very substantial, I can link either or both?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:37 am
by MURDERCAT
In post 1294, Green Crayons wrote:I guess my final ask on this line of conversation is: does penguin not act like this when town?
I haven't played with town penguin since I've been back so I can't say from first hand experience. But I had skimmed through this game as a comparison and didn't see that same sort of voting pattern:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=84707
Anyway, that was just the start of my suspicion of him, I pointed out that on the whole I think he is shading people and doesn't seem to have any TRs like he is keeping options open.
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:37 am
by Dumb and Dumber
Sure, hit me with both!
-El Dumbass
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:47 am
by Green Crayons
In post 1300, Dumb and Dumber wrote:Neither, I am beginning to believe that defence against *votes* isn't useful
Also, zen playstyle, etc
I still don't understand what this means, especially with you emphasizing the "votes" portion. That you're not going to engage in naked votes? Or that you're also not going to engage in stated suspicions?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:48 am
by Green Crayons
I guess looking back at your original post I guess i understand but please spell it out for me bc I'm slow.
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:55 am
by Dumb and Dumber
Something along the lines of: if someone already makes up their mind, I don't want to spend time trying to fight them off, but if they'd like me to address concerns or suspicions I'd be glad to talk about it.
-Dumbass
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:58 am
by Infinity 324
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:58 am
by Daenerys and Dragons
In post 1281, Salsabil Faria wrote: In post 1189, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:your reads are garbage.
1) does anyone ACTUALLY believe that I, as scum, would willingly pick a 1v1 against town!skitter? I've been pushing her slot since the beginning. that would mean you have two of the strongest town players in this game, who are also familiar with both my towngame and my scumgame, and I'm staring them in the face and drawing their attention like this. in what universe is that how I aim to play around skitter? that makes no fucking sense.
2) look at my ISO. I'm constantly engaging with people, evaluating my reads, picking things apart, and pushing. even though I'm no longer focusing on auro, it's clear I'm still trying to sort him. I'm trying to sort everyone. I'm clearly invested in this game and trying to solve. look at my posts and say to my face that this is a scummy ISO.
- Daenerys
In post 1190, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????
either you're blind or you're scum.
- Daenerys
I know these replies is not for me, but I want to know something. Scum!you are willingly picking 1v1 against town!Skitter is also not impossible despite you both know each other playstyles both town+scum? It can be a good strategy to use so that scum!you can be townreaded by all/most of the players at least? And town!Skitter has to prove to the rest of us that you're a scum here. You may be (?) can't play around town!Skitter, but you may (?) can play around enough people to save yourselves from the elimination? And everyone tries to improve their game, so that doesn't mean scum!you don't improve your game here especially knowing that town!Skitter is here. This isn't my read on you/Skitter, I'm clearing that maybe (?) all of it isn't that impossible.
In a vacuum I can see what you’re saying, I think it doesn’t make sense to keep this going in the context of this game though. skitter was townreading me at the beginning of the game -> scum!me deliberately antagonizes her? doesn’t make much sense. skitter was townreading me again after me vs auro -> scum!me continues to antagonize skitter and invite her scrutiny on me? I don’t think that makes much sense either. This would be a really risky play for me to make without much benefit, because there are many other ways for me to try to seem towny than antagonizing a player who knows how to read me really well.
- Daenerys
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:00 am
by Daenerys and Dragons
In post 1287, Salsabil Faria wrote: In post 1217, Gamma Emerald wrote:
I'm not even directly pushing you yet, I'm just trying to talk on my thoughts, so your explosive reaction seems overly defensive
Agreed. Town can be defensive too, I myself a defensive person, but Lilith's defensiveness is not something I see town usually do.
I really don’t feel like I’m being defensive....... I just think it’s crazy to consider my play as something scum would be doing against town!skitter. And I feel like gamma is repeatedly ignoring my content in favor of dismissing me for being too emotional.
- Daenerys
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:04 am
by Daenerys and Dragons
In post 1290, Salsabil Faria wrote: In post 1222, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:once again - look at my ISO. look at me pushing, sorting, engaging, and progressing this game. yeah, I think I'm the most obvtown slot in this game.
- Daenerys
Don't get mad but I saw this exact same attitude of
obsessive town solver
scum game in one of my previous games and most of the players fell for it and the mafia won.
........ okay? “scum were able to fake it once” doesn’t mean something isn’t towny... they were just able to replicate it as scum. Progressing the game and solving and trying to sort people is a pro-town thing to do. Townies want to do it. Scum don’t want the game to progress. Therefore it is towny.
Is there an argument that scum can look like they’re trying to progress the game but not actually doing so? yes. But then the onus would be on you (or gamma, or whoever is trying to say this doesn’t make someone towny) to prove why that person is not actually helping advance the game. The onus isn’t on me to prove that something I did that’s inherently towny isn’t actually scummy.
- Daenerys
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:04 am
by PenguinPower
our minds are inexplicably linked now
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:06 am
by Daenerys and Dragons
@salsabil I can’t tell if debating whether me getting into a 1v1 with skitter could be scum-motivated is an actual argument you want to pursue or just something you were commenting on. If it’s actually something you want to discuss, I can talk more about it.
- Daenerys
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:16 am
by Dumb and Dumber
Hey, Salsabil is missing some context.
@Salsabil, Skitter30 (the other head of this hydra, Dumber) is a highly reputed player and scary slot to roll scum against.
She also has had a high read rate (100% I think) on Lilith's alignment games they've played together previously.
What Lilith is arguing is that for scum!Lilith, taking such continuous aggressive stances as scum against a slot that has proved to read her well is a silly, suicidal move.
Leave that aside - even if she did that anyway as a crazy method to get townread, and now that both heads of my slot declare townreads on her... pushing on us in this position is *even sillier* for scum!Lilith to make. I presume she'd rather just stay mum and focus elsewhere, kill us off N1, and coast off our read on her if she was scum.
-Dumbass
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:18 am
by Salsabil Faria
In post 1314, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:@salsabil I can’t tell if debating whether me getting into a 1v1 with skitter could be scum-motivated is an actual argument you want to pursue or just something you were commenting on. If it’s actually something you want to discuss, I can talk more about it.
- Daenerys
I'll go through your ISO's tomorrow (it's past midnight here). Hopefully, will find something to discuss which help me able to read you.
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:24 am
by Salsabil Faria
In post 1315, Dumb and Dumber wrote:Hey, Salsabil is missing some context.
@Salsabil, Skitter30 (the other head of this hydra, Dumber) is a highly reputed player and scary slot to roll scum against.
She also has had a high read rate (100% I think) on Lilith's alignment games they've played together previously.
What Lilith is arguing is that for scum!Lilith, taking such continuous aggressive stances as scum against a slot that has proved to read her well is a silly, suicidal move.
Leave that aside - even if she did that anyway as a crazy method to get townread, and now that both heads of my slot declare townreads on her... pushing on us in this position is *even sillier* for scum!Lilith to make. I presume she'd rather just stay mum and focus elsewhere, kill us off N1, and coast off our read on her if she was scum.
-Dumbass
I understand completely. My point (or problem) is, I didn't play with any of you before, so literally have no idea how are you guys playing as a town/scum. So it's really tough for me to believe all of your meta on each other as I don't who is who here. I'm trying to build up my read on what I'm seeing in this game and only in this game. Do I make sense?
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:27 am
by Dumb and Dumber
Sure. Skitter reading Lilith correctly across all their previous games should be factual and verifiable though, would proof of that make it easier to believe?
-Dumbass
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:31 am
by Salsabil Faria
In post 1318, Dumb and Dumber wrote:Sure. Skitter reading Lilith correctly across all their previous games should be factual and verifiable though, would proof of that make it easier to believe?
-Dumbass
I don't know yet
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:32 am
by Daenerys and Dragons
In post 1317, Salsabil Faria wrote: In post 1315, Dumb and Dumber wrote:Hey, Salsabil is missing some context.
@Salsabil, Skitter30 (the other head of this hydra, Dumber) is a highly reputed player and scary slot to roll scum against.
She also has had a high read rate (100% I think) on Lilith's alignment games they've played together previously.
What Lilith is arguing is that for scum!Lilith, taking such continuous aggressive stances as scum against a slot that has proved to read her well is a silly, suicidal move.
Leave that aside - even if she did that anyway as a crazy method to get townread, and now that both heads of my slot declare townreads on her... pushing on us in this position is *even sillier* for scum!Lilith to make. I presume she'd rather just stay mum and focus elsewhere, kill us off N1, and coast off our read on her if she was scum.
-Dumbass
I understand completely. My point (or problem) is, I didn't play with any of you before, so literally have no idea how are you guys playing as a town/scum. So it's really tough for me to believe all of your meta on each other as I don't who is who here. I'm trying to build up my read on what I'm seeing in this game and only in this game. Do I make sense?
1310 was supposed to be a watered down version for you that you could understand without meta - regardless of my history with skitter, it’s a really risky move for me to deliberately antagonize someone who is townreading me in order to try to get other people to townread me, when I could just get the other people to townread me some other way. High risk, low reward.
- Daenerys
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:33 am
by Daenerys and Dragons
again, I can’t tell if this is actually something you want to discuss at length because you think it’s AI or you just commented on the theory part. I’m happy to go more in depth if the former, otherwise I think we can probably drop this until you feel like you’ve read enough to start forming a read.
- Daenerys
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:40 am
by Salsabil Faria
In post 1320, Daenerys and Dragons wrote: In post 1317, Salsabil Faria wrote: In post 1315, Dumb and Dumber wrote:Hey, Salsabil is missing some context.
@Salsabil, Skitter30 (the other head of this hydra, Dumber) is a highly reputed player and scary slot to roll scum against.
She also has had a high read rate (100% I think) on Lilith's alignment games they've played together previously.
What Lilith is arguing is that for scum!Lilith, taking such continuous aggressive stances as scum against a slot that has proved to read her well is a silly, suicidal move.
Leave that aside - even if she did that anyway as a crazy method to get townread, and now that both heads of my slot declare townreads on her... pushing on us in this position is *even sillier* for scum!Lilith to make. I presume she'd rather just stay mum and focus elsewhere, kill us off N1, and coast off our read on her if she was scum.
-Dumbass
I understand completely. My point (or problem) is, I didn't play with any of you before, so literally have no idea how are you guys playing as a town/scum. So it's really tough for me to believe all of your meta on each other as I don't who is who here. I'm trying to build up my read on what I'm seeing in this game and only in this game. Do I make sense?
1310 was supposed to be a watered down version for you that you could understand without meta - regardless of my history with skitter, it’s a really risky move for me to deliberately antagonize someone who is townreading me in order to try to get other people to townread me, when I could just get the other people to townread me some other way. High risk, low reward.
- Daenerys
Okay, I'll go through your ISO's tomorrow, so let's see, what I find.
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:40 am
by Dumb and Dumber
Daenerys, can you give me a quick tl;dr of where you're at on Green Crayons / re-quote for me?
-The Dumbass
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:49 am
by Daenerys and Dragons
surface level towny, but I’m wary of him seeming towny to me in a prior game where he was scum, so probably closer to null overall. probably not interested in elim unless our other reads are wrong/we end up needing to reevaluate gamestate.
- Daenerys