NY 151: Playground Mafia (Game Over-Mafia Win!)

[drmyshotgun]

If he is scum, he is scum. But you seem genuinely annoyed at his presence.

[Junpei]

If he is scum, he is scum. But you seem genuinely annoyed at his presence.

Oh. The question is asking if my emotions and prejudices are blinding me.

No, don't worry, I have a grind with Mastin and express this, however when I actually analyze things I have the presence of mind to turn off the blinders if necessary.

[Psyche]

This was what I complained about in the OP. PERSONALITY.

And now we have dick-waving contests and widespread ego masturbation. Ugh.

[drmyshotgun]

What's OP?

[Psyche]

(Oh, my opening post, sry)

[DeasVail]

If he is scum, he is scum. But you seem genuinely annoyed at his presence.

Oh. The question is asking if my emotions and prejudices are blinding me.

No, don't worry, I have a grind with Mastin and express this, however when I actually analyze things I have the presence of mind to turn off the blinders if necessary.

What I meant was this:

You make comments about Mastin thinking he's intelligent and having a big ego. Do you feel his scumplay here is a reflection of his personality? Because I would have thought not.

[Pine]

Pine:

What led you to change your mind?

Replacing out was bothering me. It seemed like a dick move to pull on a mod that I like, and my reason for wanting to leave was petty.

The pace of this game and the sheer volume of bullshit I have to wade through just to keep up is just plain annoying.

[drmyshotgun]

Don't read my posts then.
Don't read Scooby's.

Oh, those were your suspects.

[Psyche]

Mastin IS the page. Who says "pretty much" excepting a glaring exception?
"Pretty much" means "more or less", "basically", etc.

Ok.

Does it matter?

Your post that "The "pretty much" means mastin is the exception" seems like a disingenuous attempt to cover for a scummy inconsistency.

(And Nero's anti-Psyche stance seems opportunistic and his behavior toward you can be characterized as weak distancing. Ignoring your spurious answer and all suggests he didn't care about his question.)

unvote; vote DeasV

[Junpei]

You make comments about Mastin thinking he's intelligent and having a big ego. Do you feel his scumplay here is a reflection of his personality? Because I would have thought not.

I think that Mastins' actions are driven by scum motive. The consequence of scum motive creates these actions. These actions are ones which portray arrogance by Mastin which may be intentional or unintentional. Whether it is intentional or unintentional is irrelevant to his alignment, only a part of his person which isn't affecting my read on him.

[FakeGod]

@Mod: I am traveling. V/LA for 2 days

[drmyshotgun]

Have fun.

[mastin2]

This is a small part of my Junpei case, but since QTs have an annoying four-link limit in place (even for links to other QTs! >_<), I don't exactly have much choice other than to post it first. All of these are public and can be found in the scum/dead QTs or if I lived until the game's finish, in my ISO of the games.

Tricycle QT, town.
Powerrox QT, town.
Desert QT (game with Khan Man), town.
1180 QT, town.
Reaper QT, town.
LIPD QT, town.
Brightest Day QT, town.
Fire and Ice QT, town. (Best multiscum performance from me.)
Flash Mafia QT, first

scum

pseudotown-QT. By extent, it was the first game where I kept a day-scum QT, abandoned once I became the last surviving scum.
Sexy Sedilla QT, town.
Neruzian QT, town.
RPG QT, town.
Underground QT, town.
Rolling QT, town.
OxyMoron QT, town.
Gulf QT,

scum

; my second and only day-QT is here.
Stargate QT, town.
Independent QT, town.
Mob Justice,

scum

. (We had daytalk.)
It Got Worse, never officially declared over to my knowledge, so no QT link and no alignment from me; I'd have to confirm the game really ended.
RPG 2 QT,

scum

.
Flash 4 QT, town.
Little Town QT,

scum

. (Daytalk. Again.)

You'll see why this is part of the Junpei case after I actually finish writing the Junpei case.

[mastin2]

Relevent game links as well--
Tricycle.
Powerrox.
Desert. (Highly recommended reading.)
1180.
Reaper.
LIPD.
Brightest Day.
Fire and Ice. (Highly Recommended Reading.)
Flash Mafia 3.
Sexy Sedilla.
Neruzian.
RPG.
Underground. (Highly Recommended Reading.)
Rolling.
OxyMoron.
Gulf.
Stargate.
Independent.
Mob Justice was entirely eaten.
RPG 2 was entirely eaten.
Flash 4 was entirely eaten.
Little Town.

Won't be used in the case against Junpei directly, obviously, but they make good convenient references which I might need.

[mastin2]

Damn.

I wanted to finish tonight, but that's not happening. (Any other week. ANY other week of the year, it would.) Masochistic as I am, this is the ONLY week in the year where I canNOT afford to abuse my body as I normally do in mafia games--it's the only week where instead of sacrificing real life for mafia, I sacrifice mafia* for real life. Sorry. I'll continue work on it when I have the capability to do so tomorrow, and if I don't finish, that will continue until I do. Life sucks.

*Same reason I wasn't here to PM Zor during Team Mafia, by the way. A week later, woulda been fine. Nope! Had to be THIS week.

[Code_X]

Why do I get the feeling Mastin is drowning everyone out.

Kind of also waiting for replacements/lurkers to pipe up also. An appearance from Red wouldn't go amiss neither.

One other thing, KK - your vote Post 1011 how do you feel about Pine now? Still guilty?

[Kublai Khan]

Also still waiting on that Mastin case

"

Maaaaaaaastin! Please distract them from meeeeeee!

"

You already saw mastin2's case on me.

lol.

LLD voted Mastin at the begining of the DP. I wanted to see her case on him. That was me asking her for her case on mastin not asking mastin for a case on you. misrep much?

Not misrepping. Misunderstanding. I thought you were repeating your request from Post 1116.

In the absence of a scum-flip, mastin2's verbal diarrhea means nothing and it's been established that he will consider me his top scum suspect no matter what. If you're asking him for his read of me, it means you've already read what he's posted about me and thought that it had any merit what-so-ever.

You're tickling the back of mastin2's keyboard because you want a distraction away from you.

Stating that someone is town or scum via unflipped player attack is ridiculous.

Says the guy who has

no problem at all

with mastin2's input.

just like Rack and Vijay were not town.

Not a town response at all, btw.

Everyone:

Does Mastin do this kind of thing as scum?

Well, the game I've played with mastin2 where he was scum is outdated (thought it was multi-scum), but he was really, really obv-scum. He reads as town in this game.

Once there's an actual scum-flip, mastin2 can help uncover the rest of the scum-team really well, but until then he's just spinning his wheels in the mud. Being massively wrong and full of himself isn't a scum-tell for him.

---
Benmage comes off as the scummier one in his tiff with HezLucky.
---

One other thing, KK - your vote Post 1011 how do you feel about Pine now? Still guilty?

Scummy, not "guilty", but yep.

[Nero Cain]

@KK for the last time I'm not asking Mastin for a read or case on you. I asked once and that was it. I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up.

Stating that someone is town or scum via unflipped player attack is ridiculous.

Says the guy who has

no problem at all

with mastin2's input.
When did I ever say that?

Everyone:

Does Mastin do this kind of thing as scum?

Well, the game I've played with mastin2 where he was scum is outdated (thought it was multi-scum), but he was really, really obv-scum. He reads as town in this game.

Once there's an actual scum-flip, mastin2 can help uncover the rest of the scum-team really well, but until then he's just spinning his wheels in the mud. Being massively wrong and full of himself isn't a scum-tell for him.

Actully, in Mafia on werewolf islad he did something similar when he was outted. And he should know that it's very anti-town to flood the thread like this.

[Pine]

Mastin is definitely scum. He's sometimes spammy as Town, but he rarely does this IIOA flooding unless he's caught scum.

[mastin2]

Introduction

:

My Original Junpei Read:

My scumread on Junpei did not start early-on. It wasn't until after I had scrapped my old reads and decided to start from scratch, in fact, that I even thought he could be scum. That's because I had a weak townread on him which outlived its expiration date. The reason for the townread?

He posted "/confirm". I did a search for the term "confirm" in his games; he doesn't use it often, but I never found a game where he used it as scum playing from the beginning (Speed Mafia was D2). That was my tell on him, and made me stubbornly refuse to change my opinion until I opened my eyes to everyone.

And this is what I saw.

How The Read Changed:

I will elaborate when I get to the appropriate section, but the read changed when Junpei jumped onto the rack wagon--it wasn't that he was on the rack wagon, specifically, but rather his stance on things not two pages earlier, and then I saw the truth.

From The Beginning

:

But let's go back. Let's go through Junpei's posts, piece by piece, and show exactly why he is not town.

Holy shit, has the game even started? And most of this is useless, and we already have insults!

Junpei prides himself on being in control of himself, and yet he clearly was expressing (via language and the exclamation mark) clear signs of emotion, which is far from the objectiveness he aims for.

As town, this is counterproductive to his stated goal. It also is useless, in that his comment by itself doesn't discourage people from posting more, as he does not call out any specific names, not giving requests to any players as he had done to me.

As scum, this is productive, because showing emotions

does

further his wincon, because the surprise/annoyance/whatever emotion he tried to convey (I can't really tell, since it failed and felt artificial) is something which is meant to excuse his lack of commentary, allowing him to not call out any specific players to single out, as he does not wish for that.

His observation is meant to look town, but it really is little more than IioA, as he makes nothing of the insults.

It also makes for a theoretically nice bridge into his point about me not spamming, but it falls flat as the point looks out of place, as pointed out in my interactions spoiler.

Furthermore, NihilisticNinja was correct--the content was not in fact useless at all. A pro-town player can use information from any page to form logical opinions. A pro-scum player can use an excuse to avoid forming an opinion based off of the logic given so far, as they are not able to properly manipulate anyone at that stage.

A good gentlemen keeps his thoughts in his head and his learning applied.

Here, he asks me to keep my thoughts organized and basically controlled. And I complied. I created a quicktopic, where I dumped my rambling thoughts and began to organize myself. I even said I was creating a quicktopic, in the post above (60).

God dammit Mastin, how many games are you in?

This is the same tone as his first post, delivering a single message, despite how I basically was doing exactly what he asked me to--rather than spamposting the thread, I did my best to gather my thoughts logically to form my case as it stood at that point in time. I organized: while there was still fluff present which I couldn't get rid of, I was not chaotic with my thoughts.

The whole post is all fluff, as he does nothing in there. From a logical town standpoint, there was pretty much no reason to call me out on doing exactly what he asked me to do.

From a scum viewpoint, calling me out on walling looked like it was something which fell in line with his "too much spamposting" line of thought, forgetting that organizing my thoughts is exactly what he asked me to do, and I was following his request--and that therefore, his post which is meant to appear solid would convey nothing.

but the fail in the earlier version is so much that I think it could be faked.

And here is where the QT begins to come into the equation. I had said I had started a QT--me having a QT in every game is something easily researchable, especially since I just gave links to every game where I have them. I even said I had typed the message up in the QT.

And yet Junpei thinks that the thing could be faked. This goes against logic, because if I say I do something in a QT, anyone looking into my history will realize that I've done that thing in my QT. For someone who prides himself on being objective, this is a terribly subjective and unsubstantiated claim.

But beyond meta, which he has at points claimed not to have known. (At other points saying the opposite, that he does know. But more on that later.) Let's assume that he was unaware of my quicktopics being made constantly.

Then let's look at this statement. He is saying that it "could be faked", but is refusing to take a stronger stance. He isn't committing to it having been faked, but rather, is leaving the door open to the possibility, a door he doesn't take until much later into the game.

As town, it makes no logical sense to not take a clear stance, for it can lead to confusion as others can't tell what your opinion on it is. As scum, it makes perfect logical sense to not take a clear stance, because it allows you to take either side as you please.

At this point, Junpei had given no content at all. Many players (in fact, almost everyone) had given content, voted, and/or formed opinions on a significant portion of the playerlist, whereas Junpei had done nothing.

While he was V/LA, he did not even try to form reads, instead using V/LA as an excuse not to give content and not to answer many people's questions of him, selectively quoting only what he chose to when he did come in.

His excuse?

Because I have so much going on in my life and I'm in too many games. Also this isn't exactly a playerlist known for understanding succinct and graceful ways to get their points across. I just need to find time to do so.

Real life (his V/LA), too many games (the thing he was trying to chastize me for, which means this is hypocrisy), and a jab which was most likely directed at me (when I was among the more concise posters at that point).

As you can tell, it does not hold very well.

By page 27, his V/LA has been over for three days, and yet he still has yet to give any content at all--lurking. As town, this does not make sense logically. The longer you wait, the further you'd be behind and therefore the harder it would be to get caught up. As scum, this makes perfect sense, as he can lurk to his heart's content and mostly get away with it.

HezLucky said it best.

All you've done is one liners. All you do is bitch about how long Mastin's walls are. You're lurking like Jason and I, but unlike either of us you've done nothing but post fluff to make yourself LOOK active.

Junpei's response to this was to claim he was still not caught up, and this little gem about meta:

HezLucky, you should meta me or something because I'm conscious about my meta (yeah, meta-thoughts in regards to meta-meta); I don't blame you for the scumread on me though, and I don't expect you to meta me but I felt I should respond to what you wrote since I just read your post.

"You can't meta me; there is NO way anyone can get a reliable meta read on me!"

You know that Mastin-Scum-game Khan recently talked about? Yeah, this is the stance in there which helped get me lynched, for good reason: because (bluntly) it's scummy as hell to deny you can be meta'd. His response doesn't even counter Hez's points--Hez's points were in regards to his (lack of) content, not really based off of Junpei's meta. This was a deflection. Furthermore, it was pointless.

Logically as town, one shouldn't waste time responding to suspicion about not being caught up, as that wastes times saying "I haven't caught up" rather than spending time actually catching up so you can render further comments of that nature no longer necessary.

Logically as town, one might say they haven't caught up if they bring content to the table, such as "I haven't caught up, yet, but from where I am right now, *insert observation here*." With the observation being something which they find important, such as "player X looks scummy for *reason*", or "I don't like the suspicion on Player Y, because they look town for *reason*" and other similar trains of thought.

Logically as scum, you need to address suspicion on you so that it does not get magnified while you are catching up.

In short, there's no town reason to have posted his response, but there's a solid scum motive in having done so.

This post does not add validity to DV's arguments, thus I must assume it is blatant buddying.

Note that Junpei still had no vote. This is the first sign of anything resembling content from his slot. And despite having a lead, he does not follow through and place a vote down.

He also tries to justify it by saying "I must assume". He leaves a back door to get out of this statement if need be, since if redFF were to explain, then he would be able to say, "Oh, well then I guess my assumption was wrong, then". He doesn't take a strong stance and say "this is buddying".

He could have said exactly that, in fact--"This is blatant buddying". For someone who calls me out on not being concise, Junpei himself seems to not be succinct in his thoughts. The fact that it was not adding to DV's arguments was already clear for all to see; the only thing which was needed was the observation of what that meant.

In short, it shows hypocrisy (lack of concise thought after having called out me and others on that exact same thing), a need to justify his read, and a way to back out of said read if need be at the same time...

...All while not following through on this and applying pressure to redFF in the form of a vote. Furthermore, it hints that Junpei is more caught up than he lets on to be, because if you're replying to current comments, then that means you've either abandoned reading older comments or have made significant progress.

There's no logical town explanation for these actions. The closest I can think of would be "I'm not caught up, so maybe this will make more sense when I am", but that doesn't fit with his wording.

There is plenty of scum logic for the actions, as listed above: cautious play meant to give him shelter while he tries to form something to use against a player.

It's only

after

his lack of reads is pointed out that Junpei thinks to give one, and follows through with a redFF vote--again, why the wait? Why not apply the vote immediately?

Logically as town, I can't really think of an explanation for the delay in the vote, other than maybe "I forgot?".

Logically as scum, I already provided the reason for the lack of the vote originally (see above), and the reason that a vote is placed down is because he was called out and realizes that he needs to take a stance to avoid further suspicion from growing.

tl;dr, the series of posts show Junpei to not only be survivalistic but also opportunistic.

The closest we get to real scumhunting from Junpei is this:

I will say the following: Psyche's first two posts

seem contrived

, and your aggressiveness

seems out of place

.

And this post

seems

noncommital. (cwhutididthar?)

As scum, the logical take on this is quite simple--don't take a stronger stance, so that you can change it if required.

As town, the logical take on this would be...that his reads on them aren't strong? That's the best I can come up with. Simply put, it fits better as scum.

It's suspicious that you are playing a massive noob card while simultaneously backing away from all of your previous reads (and thus, content).

This shows massive hypocrisy, in that Junpei is calling me out on 'backing out of my reads' (which I didn't, by the way), when...

-He himself has shown extreme lack of devotion to his reads (since that would require admitting he was wrong if he needed to change them), as shown above and many times below.

-As town who is objective, logically you should be able to realize you are wrong, so from his perspective, me thinking I was wrong would be a

good

thing, as it'd trade subjective initial biases for objective logical reads.

Also I think redFF is scum for more than that; his diction and purpose on that page seems not town motivated.

And a 'champion of logic' resorts to using in his case against a player...their way of speaking, claiming that it's not town-motivated and that it has a scum mindset--oh, for someone like me, a 'baseless claim' such as that would be perfectly fine. It's me, after all.

...But for someone who prizes logic? To not explain WHY the tone was scummy, to not explain WHAT the scum motivation in redFF's purpose was? Not only is this INCREDIBLY hypocritical (see also--his stance on me), but it's also against everything he should stand for, as it is not giving things in an objective manner at all.

The person who put this best is LLD, and I'll quote her for what I'm calling the half-way mark in my case.

His first 9 posts are literally content-less. Nothing exists in them besides mentioning how fast the game is moving and making little aside comments on things that aren't relevant to finding the scum.

Next, he starts to do SOMETHING when he makes a comment about RedFF's logic/saying he is buddying or something stupid like that. On the whole, the two posts it took to say these things were unnecessary and just bad.

Then he gets into a discussion with Librarian, with a vote for RedFF in the middle. You have legitimately said one thing about RedFF this entire game, and your vote on him didn't project any further insight. I am forced to assume you were making this vote with almost no reasoning.

Then the rest of your posts are blatant attempts at trying to justify your terrible posting and vote from before, combined with you asking a bunch of questions that really don't add anything to the hunt for who is scum.

And now to finish the other half.

[Junpei]

So... I'm not going to respond to any of Mastins' walls like that; no point in it. More Mastin votes please.

[drmyshotgun]

FUck that's a long wall. Not that I read any.

[Junpei]

FUck that's a long wall. Not that I read any.

I read it all, but it's so flawed that it isn't worth responding to. I don't think Mastin is scumhunting because the way he is moving from topic to topic and the points that he's making don't logically flow to me from someone who thinks they've caught scum.

[DeasVail]

Psyche:

What was scummy about the inconsistency?

[drmyshotgun]

Now that I see it, Mastin is indeed hopping around. Got no-one to really sink your teeth into, Mastin?