Mini 1802: Paint Mafia Sequel - Game Over!

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: katsuki
dhbdn

[pieguyn]

VOTE: katsuki
dhbdn

please don't do this.

why?

[kraska77]

Please do this
Katsuki is best lynch for today

[pieguyn]

Pie is a very strong pick for it actually, given that she's trying to make this a pissing contest that I think she knows that she doesn't win.

OK...

listen up, fucktard

if you read my posts, you'd notice that I've been providing quite a bit of reasoning for why Katsuki is town and why S_S is scum. notice how when I state a read on someone, I can actually back it up with quotes, examples, etc. and argue my point. when you first came into this game, even, I specifically TOLD YOU that I would want to discuss reads with you if you bothered to elaborate on anything you were writing.

what you've done?

- you came here and insisted I was scum and that Katsuki was scum
- you didn't elaborate on any of these reads, because your reads are so fucking amazing that no one else has any right to question them
- you didn't respond to my point about why Katsuki/me makes literally no sense
- you're basically just demanding that everyone lick your balls and unconditionally take your reads as gospel because you're confirmed town
- you STRAIGHT UP SAID your goal was come in here and do the above
- you're doing it again right at this second claiming "lelel I know S_S is town, if you don't follow my amazing reads I get to force you to do X tomorrow"

and you're claiming that I'M turning this into a "pissing content"?

just stop playing this game, because you're fucking delusional

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: katsuki
dhbdn

please don't do this.

why?

idk

[pieguyn]

idk

...

S_S is a much, much better lynch than Katsuki. what do you think of what I wrote about him in 1240 or 1287?

I can break down even more than I already have why his read progression on me is horrible and doesn't make any sense, but the long and short of it is he doesn't genuinely believe in his read.

[Dwlee99]

bleh

[pieguyn]

bleh

what does "bleh" mean?

in what universe do you think it makes any amount of sense for someone to think that it's somehow a point against me that I mislynched ONE town player?

[Dwlee99]

i'm super disconnected from this game and haven't read a lot of these walls

[Nahdia]

i think S_S is incoherent town. there's nothing about what you've pointed out that screams scum motivation to me. scum like to have a strong justification for their pushes as much as town does; not having one can really go either way in my mind and iirc i had some other reason for calling him town which i can't really remember but it was probably good.

[Nahdia]

the difference between S_S's push on you and Katsuki's push on RC is the difference between

bad

reasoning and

a complete absence

of reasoning.

[Something_Smart]

Incoherent town is the best kind of town.
I could see pie/Katsuki but Katsuki is at L-2 I think? so I won't vote there yet.
I feel like it's not worth it making a case on pie because nobody would listen to me anyway

[kraska77]

^ Hey you're not scumreading whatisname anymore? Bc that's what your reads list that brawl guy quoted said. I'm missing a good chunk of the thread So idk if your read on him changed

[pieguyn]

i think S_S is incoherent town. there's nothing about what you've pointed out that screams scum motivation to me. scum like to have a strong justification for their pushes as much as town does; not having one can really go either way in my mind and iirc i had some other reason for calling him town which i can't really remember but it was probably good.

he first attempted to push me as scum because he thought it'd be a viable read and he thought he could get a lot out of the "OMG, pie is some master manipulator who bussed Ari D1 and is fooling you all" nonsense he came up with. after I broke that down in as much detail as I could and made it obvious that this made no sense, he couldn't push it anymore, but still continued believing I was scum for "other reasons". he outright conceded that the point about me bussing didn't make sense. from a town POV, if you have two reasons for someone being scum and the first one is wrong, what would you be inclined to do? you'd say something along the lines of "eh, this isn't correct, but I still have reservations about her because X and Y".

what he's done? "eh, this isn't correct" and then he just sits kinda sorta sits there inventing reasons to throw shade at me. if you read his posts, there's no attempt at so much as

explaining

what these "other reasons" for scum reading me were, and he has had _the entire fucking game day_ to do so. outside of the bussing angle, he straight up hasn't attempted to engage me at all.

why not? because he can't fabricate a viable point, and doesn't want to look like obvscum making it obvious his read on me holds no water. so instead, he sits there and nitpicks semantics (which is all he was doing in 1302... notice how he conveniently side-stepped me asking him how it was somehow a point that I mislynched someone D2) to make it look like he has a point.

the part where he pushed me for lynching a town player is actually just nonsense, and it falls into territory where it is coming from scum since it's not something a town player would think makes sense, ever; see: the above about inventing reasons to throw shade at me. this is not the only time he has done this, but it's the most egregious point. and about Katsuki's RC push, it would be perfectly well-reasoned if it weren't for the sole fact that RC is confirmed town. RC's play here is complete shit and makes absolutely no sense. Katsuki's interpretation is the correct interpretation, and I probably will avoid RC after this game ends because I feel pretty shit about mafia in general and I can't deal with players like him anymore.

so tl;dr of this is his read on me actually does have a fair amount of scum motivation, and doesn't make sense from a town POV, especially when you consider that I'm mostly a consensus town read (or at least not a consensus scum read) outside of RC. he would not be kind-of sort-of passively pushing this read, not thinking it's important to explain his reasons, etc., if he legitimately thought I was scum. he would if he thought it would be viable for him to fake a "scum read" on me, though.

[pieguyn]

i'm super disconnected from this game and haven't read a lot of these walls

you should at least read the posts I linked (and the post directly above this one).

it really isn't that difficult to understand.

[kraska77]

@kraska, I'll respond to your post in full later (at work rn) but a quick point, Aris was pretty much completely fucked by the time he caught up at the very end of D1, so it absolutely would make sense for him to put a partner down as scum with the intent of distancing. it didn't actually do anything to put itle in danger, it was just words at that point.

dwlee and itle were going at eachother and ari just butted in, it felt like his last attempt to save himself and look like he's scumhunting. That doesn't look like distancing but if you insist then whatever. When scum are in a a bad position they spend what little time they have left obfuscating and interacting with as many players as possible. But ari singling itle out like that and that late into day 1 is not distancing

[Something_Smart]

^ Hey you're not scumreading whatisname anymore? Bc that's what your reads list that brawl guy quoted said. I'm missing a good chunk of the thread So idk if your read on him changed

Who?

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: s_s

[kraska77]

Zulfy

[Something_Smart]

Oh yeah. I guess so, other people have been acting scummier and I think some of that read was (unintentionally) due to his playstyle anyway.

[pieguyn]

first of all pie, i read the stuff you wrote on katsuki in that breakdown post, and i clicked on the linked post and funnily enough two posts below katsuki's, you refutd your own townread on him by saying he played an active part in lala's lynch...so...him asking "why the turnound" is as good a reason as any to townread him or anyone else

first off, you're missing a lot of the context behind my read on Katsuki and how it developed the way I did. I first took issue with his posts this game day because I thought his disengagement was feigned, yes. then he made 1140, which basically killed off whatever thought I had of his disengagement being feigned entirely and made it obvious it was legitimate. you might say that it was faked, but I think that his tone around the end of D2/start of D3 points to it being legitimate, and I can empathize with his angle here. lala was doing jack shit to try and actually sort the game

and it isn't a general read, a lot of it is meta specific to Katsuki. to my knowledge, he is not someone who would be so openly dissatisfied with a game as scum. he has games where he lurks as scum, but it's always deliberate; it's never him being legitimately disconnected or dissatisfied. he's much better at scum than he is as town and actually puts effort into trying to win when he's scum, and tends to get disconnected from games when he's town. this is why the obvious lack of effort here is such a huge town tell, and it's why my progression on him is what it is: I thought he was trying to feign disengagement, which would make him scum, but then he came in and posted that and made it blatantly obvious it was legit.

and you might say, "how can he get away with playing so differently from his town game when he's scum, it'd be obvious?", but in fact, Katsuki has an established history of believing that people who play the same way as scum and town don't know how to play scum correctly, and has actually been able to back this up in the majority of his scum games... that isn't a concern for him.

i dont give a crap about katsuki's rc vote and if it's supposed to make me reconsider a lynch on him, it's not working. i can recognize when people are being too ridiculous to be scum, but this is different bc that was a vanity vote.

I do not think the vote on RC itself is a town tell. the point I was making there was in response to people saying it was somehow a scum tell, which it obviously isn't; as you wrote about it here, it's null. I do think it looks town because I can strongly empathize with the thought process behind it, though. I probably would have had the exact same thought process if I was in his position and *if* I had somehow forgot about RC being confirmed town. that's how completely stupid the way RC is playing this game is.

but that's mostly a separate point. the key point there is that even if you don't think the vote is town, most of the people in this game are incorrect to call it something more likely to come from scum.

also why are you pulling a curtain over his predecessor's posts? tsq's posts were mostly nothing more than overblown reactions(similar to katsuki's) and misrepresentation

I'm not and in fact I took issue with TSQ's posts back when he first made them for the same reason. at this point, though, I feel it's more likely this is something TSQ just does all the time, especially since I have now had a game with him where he played in basically that exact way as town. even without the meta, it wasn't such a strong point that I would feel confident in a lynch over it. now, the town tell on Katsuki is strong enough to where I'm not really taking issue with it anymore. before the town tell today, I was mostly ambivalent on Katsuki's slot and probably would have been open to lynching it.

but anyway, let's consider this alternative. katsuki's iso is vacuous mostly, his lurking makes him difficult to read and he's not doing anything useful to town. im pretty sure i will keep second guessing myself the entire game if he stays alive, and that i will be unable to move forward with my reads until i see his slot's flip. it's a good lynch regardless

if you feel this way about Katsuki, he's probably town. see: the point I made in the first paragraph where he actually efforts as scum and rarely gets legitimately disengaged from games.

as for your point that Katsuki flipping scum would make the color flip moot, wouldn't this be the case if we lynch any scum who doesn't flip blue? I think it's a good point in general, but not a good one for specifically lynching Katsuki, and moreover, *if* we happen to flip scum who *is* blue, all blue flips from here on out can be trusted. meanwhile a red scumflip doesn't tell us anything; it could be that scum chose not to paint themselves blue for whatever reason hoping to save it for later, or the last scum could repaint themselves a different color (to directly answer your question, yes I expect it's possible).

if there's anything else you're looking for an answer to, let me know. I might have missed something.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: s_s

grazie~

[RadiantCowbells]

Dwlee, stahp.

Pie, it comes down to the fact that your reads suck and mine don't.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you're town.

[Cheetory6]

boop