In post 13347, MalcolmTucker wrote:Sorry catching up. Given my thoughts previous day I'm largely back to Rad - feels like the second time Rad has latched onto an easyish elimination target who wasn't necessarily too high activity to save their own skin and look like they were being reasonable by being willing to compromise.
Fair enough, the wagon built and dissolved quickly. But why is rad scummy for compromising when you do the same thing?
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:49 am
by Cat Scratch Fever
In post 13372, MalcolmTucker wrote:I believed BBT was town and little has changed that since. I believe Johnny is very likely town and wasn't interested in going there either
In post 12225, MalcolmTucker wrote:Outlined beforehand I liked the possibility of a CSF/Bella team, their interactions with each other felt like it could check out as scum teammates -
some soft TR's
with the occasional null read thrown in there just to create a little bit of distance.
I don't think this is true. Bella was not soft TR'ing me aside from early day 1.
In post 12225, MalcolmTucker wrote:Beyond that I don't think CSF's pushes have been great as of late and feel like they could be coming from scum trying to defend teammates and implicate other players I read as town. Is is not interesting, eg, that Cat continually pushes Johnny, who I think is looking really townie, and then as the day wears on a whole bunch of votes start to pile onto Johnny again?
If your whole reason for thinking Johnny is town is that "Bella kind of pushed Johnny as scum," then why is Mala ever a better vote here? Mala was (a) actually voted by Bella and (b) pushed by Corwin as his only scumread
This question is not really to you, but more to the peanut gallery, but I legitimately don't get it
Perhaps you don't think Mala has done enough to prove she's town, but what on earth has Johnny done either????
My primary reason for switching on Johnny was the Math/Johnny interactions for the most part. Don't believe they can be paired.
Beyond that I think Johnny's pushes have been solid this turn and we're agreeing on quite a bit now. Maybe a risk I'm getting pocketed but I think it's much more likely Johnny is also town and our views are just aligning on lots of things.
In post 11342, MalcolmTucker wrote:Out of interest, who else do you reckon is scum other than Johnny? I liked the case on Johnny early game but struggling to see it following
Math's
elimination.
How does Math's elimination rule out Johnny?
Sorry I'm getting confused on who suspected who re scum. Math wasn't really pro-eliminating Johnny - Bella/Johnny was a different story. 10685 outlined why. Maybe it's possible I could be underestimating the amount of SvS stuff we've been seeing though? Some of Johnny's more recent posts don't fill me with confidence but I'm also aware I'm struggle to tonally townread them when they post which could be influencing where I'm at.
No, it was bella...
I feel like you struggle to remember why you townread Johnny.
And furthermore, your townread was voting for me and you never seemed keen to join him.
In post 13347, MalcolmTucker wrote:Sorry catching up. Given my thoughts previous day I'm largely back to Rad - feels like the second time Rad has latched onto an easyish elimination target who wasn't necessarily too high activity to save their own skin and look like they were being reasonable by being willing to compromise.
Fair enough, the wagon built and dissolved quickly. But why is rad scummy for compromising when you do the same thing?
I was compromising because I was the primary alternative elimination for a long time - from that POV as town Mala remained a better elimination even on a slim chance they were scum. As I've said, the alternative wagons weren't better for me. Hence I stuck to Mala.
With Rad, I think their compromises have often been opportunistic when an easy opportunity has arisen to eliminate a townie.
In post 13372, MalcolmTucker wrote:I believed BBT was town and little has changed that since. I believe Johnny is very likely town and wasn't interested in going there either
I kind of think your Johnny read is incoherent
I'm not sure why you think this.
I've stated several times Johnny's interactions with scum didn't strike me as aligned. I also increasingly mindmelded with them in a way I felt was unlikely to be scum.
Also, if I'm scum, what's my motive for suddenly going from scum to town on Johnny? It's a slot I could've pushed reasonably as scum continually, no? Suspicion has remained there and it'd have been a viable alternative if I wanted to divert away from Mala at any point. I'm not sure what I particularly gain from backing off Johnny as scum? My read there is a perfectly natural development where I've reassessed a player as the game has gone on.
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:43 pm
by Cat Scratch Fever
In post 13379, MalcolmTucker wrote:I've stated several times Johnny's interactions with scum didn't strike me as aligned.
This is the confusing bit in 13377
Not to mention vague... Why were Bella's interactions not clearing for mala but clearing for Johnny?
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:44 pm
by Cat Scratch Fever
In post 13379, MalcolmTucker wrote:Also, if I'm scum, what's my motive for suddenly going from scum to town on Johnny?
Scum have to fake progressions
And some louder players like Luke and RcEnigma were townreading Johnny from the bella flip, so it's not unreasonable for scum to drop their push
Both of you voting together again. I’m sure that’s a complete coincidence.
~Nancyfly
What is this shade lol?
I haven’t voted yet.
I actually find Rad’s vote bad cause I didn’t even get a chance to respond to BBT.
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:07 pm
by ProfessorDrapion
I really don’t get what Butterflies point in doing this is from a town perspective. I mean they are almost lock town like very close to it but I only see wolf agenda from what they are doing so id like an explanation from them about why they keep bringing shade on me/Rad.
Wolf Agenda - Try and either Split the T/T up or just try and convince enough people they can be W/W and get Rad and then night kill Drap (of which Pooky can also be doing if wolf.)
CSF is doing the same with Malcolm in regards to Johnny. Break up T/T.
So it’s like, please everyone explain your thoughts just a bit more or explain directly to me what your point of the post was.
In post 13379, MalcolmTucker wrote:Also, if I'm scum, what's my motive for suddenly going from scum to town on Johnny?
Scum have to fake progressions
And some louder players like Luke and RcEnigma were townreading Johnny from the bella flip, so it's not unreasonable for scum to drop their push
“Fake Progressions”
Do you think Malcolm is making up a read on Johnny and do you think it TMI’s Johnny an alignment? Do you think it’s NAI but just a really wolfy made up read?
What is point?
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:12 pm
by BlueBloodedToffee
Just updating these for now. Still not a whole lot to go of from a quick skim
In post 13383, ProfessorDrapion wrote:I really don’t get what Butterflies point in doing this is from a town perspective. I mean they are almost lock town like very close to it but I only see wolf agenda from what they are doing so id like an explanation from them about why they keep bringing shade on me/Rad.
Wolf Agenda - Try and either Split the T/T up or just try and convince enough people they can be W/W and get Rad and then night kill Drap (of which Pooky can also be doing if wolf.)
CSF is doing the same with Malcolm in regards to Johnny. Break up T/T.
So it’s like, please everyone explain your thoughts just a bit more or explain directly to me what your point of the post was.
Yes, I’m the one who advocated trying to lim the hard claimed town doc before they even got a chance to post their most recent NA.
Oh wait, that was YOU.
~Nancyfly
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:25 pm
by Cat Scratch Fever
In post 13384, ProfessorDrapion wrote:Do you think Malcolm is making up a read on Johnny and do you think it TMI’s Johnny an alignment? Do you think it’s NAI but just a really wolfy made up read?
Yeah I think it's made up? That's the whole point of my posts on this page...
If you look at why Malcolm townreads Johnny, he says it's:
1. because Bella pushed Johnny
2. later, he says MathBlade's interactions cleared Johnny (then further amends this by saying he confused Bella with MathBlade, which is plausible... this is a long game)
>>> 3. I ask why Malcolm is voting Mala on day 5 when Bella pushed Mala equally as hard as Johnny - shouldn't that be equally clearing from Malcolm's perspective due to point #1? <<< This is in 12230
where I repeated the exact reason Malcolm originally townread Johnny
(i.e. point #1).
4. in response to 3, Malcolm says he's actually tr'ing Johnny b/c of his interactions with *MathBlade*, not Bella. Somehow he forgot why he townread Johnny in spite of me spelling it out for him in the post he's responding to.
5. I point out the contradiction in #1 and #4 - the idea was to see if Malcolm evaluates his Mala read and radio silence. Instead, Malcolm leaves his vote on Mala who flipped town.
6. Now he's saying something vague like Johnny is town because of interactions with flipped scum. Why??? What interactions???? And why do I consistently find it easier to remember Malcolm's own reads than he does???
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:28 pm
by BlueBloodedToffee
Mislim, Yeet and Butter all haven't posted for 6 days+
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:30 pm
by Cat Scratch Fever
In post 13387, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:6. Now he's saying something vague like Johnny is town because of interactions with flipped scum. Why??? What interactions???? And why do I consistently find it easier to remember Malcolm's own reads than he does???
I'll follow this up by saying it's easy to forget some small things in a 500+ game with 26p.
It's NOT as easy for town to forget why your scumread on someone changed to a townread. That's what made the progression feel made up.
I actually just opened the thread to check in. Night phase lasted over 4 days, so it's only been about 24 hours of this day phase. I am quite busy at the moment and won't be able to post extensively, my apologies. I'm primarily interested in Rad and Malcolm at the moment.
In post 13384, ProfessorDrapion wrote:Do you think Malcolm is making up a read on Johnny and do you think it TMI’s Johnny an alignment? Do you think it’s NAI but just a really wolfy made up read?
Yeah I think it's made up? That's the whole point of my posts on this page...
If you look at why Malcolm townreads Johnny, he says it's:
In post 10649, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:I disagree that she really pushed Johnny. Shaded yes but not really pushed. She never once voted for Johnny.
She also often brought up mala when she shaded Johnny, which makes me think she was trying to tie a partner to town.
As someone who's suspected Johnny for most of the game I think they're more likely to be town on the basis of Bella's posts.
The reads aren't consistently incredibly strong and they're definitely hedgy at times but I think it can be argued in retrospect a lot of Bella's play was coming from hedgy scum. In a game of this size, I don't think it's tactically wise to have down your "main" scumread as a teammate, especially when it's a teammate who is susceptible to suspicion as Johnny has been for plenty of the game so far. I'll do some ISO checks to make sure but moving Johnny more into my town-pile for now.
2. later, he says MathBlade's interactions cleared Johnny (then further amends this in 11363 by saying he confused Bella with MathBlade, which is plausible... this is a long game)
>>> 3. I ask why Malcolm is voting Mala on day 5 when Bella pushed Mala equally as hard as Johnny - shouldn't that be equally clearing from Malcolm's perspective due to point #1? <<< This is in 12230
where I repeated the exact reason Malcolm originally townread Johnny
In post 12225, MalcolmTucker wrote:Outlined beforehand I liked the possibility of a CSF/Bella team, their interactions with each other felt like it could check out as scum teammates -
some soft TR's
with the occasional null read thrown in there just to create a little bit of distance.
I don't think this is true. Bella was not soft TR'ing me aside from early day 1.
In post 12225, MalcolmTucker wrote:Beyond that I don't think CSF's pushes have been great as of late and feel like they could be coming from scum trying to defend teammates and implicate other players I read as town. Is is not interesting, eg, that Cat continually pushes Johnny, who I think is looking really townie, and then as the day wears on a whole bunch of votes start to pile onto Johnny again?
If your whole reason for thinking Johnny is town is that "Bella kind of pushed Johnny as scum," then why is Mala ever a better vote here? Mala was (a) actually voted by Bella and (b) pushed by Corwin as his only scumread
This question is not really to you, but more to the peanut gallery, but I legitimately don't get it
Perhaps you don't think Mala has done enough to prove she's town, but what on earth has Johnny done either????
4. in response to 3, Malcolm says he's actually tr'ing Johnny b/c of his interactions with *MathBlade*, not Bella. Somehow he forgot why he townread Johnny in spite of me spelling it out for him in the post he's responding to.
In post 12225, MalcolmTucker wrote:Outlined beforehand I liked the possibility of a CSF/Bella team, their interactions with each other felt like it could check out as scum teammates -
some soft TR's
with the occasional null read thrown in there just to create a little bit of distance.
I don't think this is true. Bella was not soft TR'ing me aside from early day 1.
In post 12225, MalcolmTucker wrote:Beyond that I don't think CSF's pushes have been great as of late and feel like they could be coming from scum trying to defend teammates and implicate other players I read as town. Is is not interesting, eg, that Cat continually pushes Johnny, who I think is looking really townie, and then as the day wears on a whole bunch of votes start to pile onto Johnny again?
If your whole reason for thinking Johnny is town is that "Bella kind of pushed Johnny as scum," then why is Mala ever a better vote here? Mala was (a) actually voted by Bella and (b) pushed by Corwin as his only scumread
This question is not really to you, but more to the peanut gallery, but I legitimately don't get it
Perhaps you don't think Mala has done enough to prove she's town, but what on earth has Johnny done either????
My primary reason for switching on Johnny was the Math/Johnny interactions for the most part. Don't believe they can be paired.
Beyond that I think Johnny's pushes have been solid this turn and we're agreeing on quite a bit now. Maybe a risk I'm getting pocketed but I think it's much more likely Johnny is also town and our views are just aligning on lots of things.
5. I point out the contradiction in #1 and #4 - the idea was to see if Malcolm evaluates his Mala read and radio silence. Instead, Malcolm leaves his vote on Mala who flipped town.
In post 11342, MalcolmTucker wrote:Out of interest, who else do you reckon is scum other than Johnny? I liked the case on Johnny early game but struggling to see it following
Math's
elimination.
How does Math's elimination rule out Johnny?
Sorry I'm getting confused on who suspected who re scum. Math wasn't really pro-eliminating Johnny - Bella/Johnny was a different story. 10685 outlined why. Maybe it's possible I could be underestimating the amount of SvS stuff we've been seeing though? Some of Johnny's more recent posts don't fill me with confidence but I'm also aware I'm struggle to tonally townread them when they post which could be influencing where I'm at.
No, it was bella...
6. Now he's saying something vague like Johnny is town because of interactions with flipped scum. Why??? What interactions???? And why do I consistently find it easier to remember Malcolm's own reads than he does???
Added some posts
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:53 pm
by Cat Scratch Fever
VOTE: Malcolm
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:12 pm
by Best Bird
Hey CSF...you read Luke's thoughts on Rad that I posted a few pages back
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:46 pm
by BlueBloodedToffee
OK, so I ISO'd Johnny because I don't have much of a read there and my only thoughts come from potential Bella spew.
This is his vote on Frog. It is naked and without reasoning. This vote stays for a decent amount of time and through a period where there is a good amount of pressure on Frog; I don't particularly like this because the reasoning is almost non-existent the entire time.
In post 958, JohnnyFarrar wrote:
Frogger seems to be... fake? Like sometimes they'll post something and I'll think to myself "there's no way they actually believe this"
Some explanation for Frog vote but it really doesn't amount to much.
In post 963, JohnnyFarrar wrote:Stand BACK while I post my ROCK SOLID D1 case on Frogger everybody. It'll have quotes and everything
This never comes. Not too much longer after this;
In post 1101, Save The Dragons wrote:
7 Frogsterking (JohnnyFarrar, Roden, Lukewarm, Galron, BlueBloodedToffee, Dancing Puppets, Enchant)
Considering Frog's wagon was the leading wagon and pressure was building, I think Johnny's vote looks really bad.
I had a quick look at Frog's ISO to see what he was doing during this time:
Declares a 'very confident' scum read on Malcolm
Scum reading Malcolm, OtH and Bella 466
Retracts scum read on Malcolm due to trusting his town reads
Moves onto voting Bella and SR Johnny for his naked vote 477
Starts to scum read Galron
OMGUS Ceph
OMGUS BBT
Thinks at least one of BBT/DP is scum - DP read fluctuates a fair bit
Wants to elim Corwin, Roden, BBT 1144 DP is added not long after 1260
Reverses his read on Johnny thinking he is uninformed - says this read was helped by Rad 1221
Goes back to voting Ceph
Pushes Corwin again
Town leans Corwin and starts pushing Johnny again for his vote on Frog. Leads to a vote on Johnny
Then he votes Bella
Moves off Bella and onto Ceph
All of that from Frog happens in a relatively short amount of time, approx 3 IRL days.
The main takeaway for me is the fact that Johnny keeps a weak vote on Frog for quite some time and with pressure building. Frog maintains scum reads on either Corwin, Johnny or Bella pretty much the entire time. Do these reads contribute to Johnny being unwilling to move his vote off of Frog? When he moves to Malcolm, it is only because the Frog wagon has completely fallen apart, but I know he returns to Frog later in the Day again. I need to see how this progresses but because this took me way longer than I thought it was going to, I'll have to continue it another time.
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:49 pm
by Cat Scratch Fever
In post 13394, Best Bird wrote:Hey CSF...you read Luke's thoughts on Rad that I posted a few pages back
I think the first point ("can talking to dead ppl be a scum role or not") is decent, since there's some contradiction in what rad is saying (I actually noticed the same thing too when I ISO'd Rad yesterDay). But in 340, he also says it "initially sounds like a townie type of power" so I dunno
It is certainly possible that Rad used the Mala TR to attack Luke in a reachy manner, but I'm not sure if that's scummy or a side effect of early game scumreads being inherently reachy
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:54 pm
by PenguinPower
That's somehwat what I wanted to hear. Did you think his 11505 was a good response given your 11500?
How does Math's elimination rule out Johnny?
