A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[pistachi0n]

Lol sure. I'm not the one who you're going to have to justify this to later anyhow. I already think you're scum.

Then why are you not voting me?

[Mirhawk]

I'm sure you can figure it out, it's not that complicated.

Is there a point to this line of questioning?

[beeboy]

Why did this games activity quarter?

[pistachi0n]

I'm sure you can figure it out, it's not that complicated.

Is there a point to this line of questioning?

Yes, the point is to understand you.

[Mirhawk]

I'm skeptical, but why not. There's little point in voting for you when I doubt a wagon on you would go through today. Not to mention you're one of my weaker reads.

@Sakura
Why is there no justification for her Spiffeh and True Ogre scumreads, but there is for me and Seniors.

It doesn't feel preplanned to you?

[Ranger]

You've obviously done things in detail but I might like to bounce some sorting off you I think. I'm really hoping you're town here.

Ah, so you've played with me before. Good to know. I don't particularly need to know who you are (to be honest, I could probably guess but I don't see the point), but knowing you've played with me and have a positive impression of me is a nice fact to know.

And, yes. This is the peak of my town game. Maybe I've been more town than in this game in some prior game, but subjectively, I can tell you I've never

felt

more town than this game before. The question isn't whether I'm town or scum, it's whether I'm accurate-town or inaccurate-town.

[beeboy]

Hey Ranger can you break down you initial Tammy read for me?

[Ranger]

@Ranger: whose lynch and flip provides the most information for town? Is there another metric that we should use to determine who we lynch today?

Well, those two give the most information in my opinion.

For instance, a lynch on Mirhawk will elevate Amihan and pistachi0n to truly-confirmed-town, among others. It also would reveal many of the strong Mirhawk pushers as being town. (I'd have to skim to name them all and why they're not bussing.)

A lynch on Friendless Seniors would serve a similarly-informative purpose.

They give the most information, they have the highest chance of flipping scum, they are the two leading wagons. For day one, you literally could not ask for better lynches.

[True Ogre]

You've obviously done things in detail but I might like to bounce some sorting off you I think. I'm really hoping you're town here.

Ah, so you've played with me before. Good to know. I don't particularly need to know who you are (to be honest, I could probably guess but I don't see the point), but knowing you've played with me and have a positive impression of me is a nice fact to know.

And, yes. This is the peak of my town game. Maybe I've been more town than in this game in some prior game, but subjectively, I can tell you I've never

felt

more town than this game before. The question isn't whether I'm town or scum, it's whether I'm accurate-town or inaccurate-town.

Yes I suppose we have a couple of times. Your read on me is wrong which actually matches you as town. Your entrance of sorting and ignoring outside happenings matches you as town. I'm jsut not a fan of your "night on untouchable town" list, mainly.

[True Ogre]

I like beeboy's question and would also like to hear the answer.

[Ranger]

Aren't you supposed to be on my wagon?

I was waiting for a votecount. I have one. If the votes haven't changed since then, I will move to you. If they have, then I'll see who they have moved onto and who was moving and evaluate from there.

I'd start her in the middle and will need to see post-catchup activity to determine whether this is a strong town entrance or a masterful scum one.

Correction: post-catchup content. Activity is universal across all games. Once or twice a day, I will come in, make a series of posts catching up, and leave again. Content is not. Though frankly I haven't found much a difference between my scum and town games. I'm sure it exists, I just haven't identified it personally. The closest is a slight tell, but even that's not absolute.

I think Ranger is being manipulative to get who she wants lynched.

If by manipulative, you mean being completely and entirely blunt and unsubtle about who I want lynched and pushing them hard? Then, yes. There is zero ambiguity; I want one of {Mirhawk, Friendless Seniors} lynched.

She's slotted every person into what appears to be a fairly solid read with little to no justification for almost any of them.

Nobody asked me to.

Oh and shes scumreading my meta when she hasn't seen my town game.

To the contrary. I said I was specifically avoiding using it.

Nothing about her catchup seems "fake" to me except the fact that the two biggest wagons are also her two strongest scum reads. That does read as contrived, but it could also simply mean that those two slots have done a number of things which are objectively scummy/anti-town, or that she was swayed by the arguments people have made about those slots which she read as she was catching up.

We also had this argument in Suikoden if you recall. You thought it was extremely suspicious for me to hop "conveniently" onto LQ after others had already done so. My statement now is just as true as then: I don't give any regard to how large a wagon on a person is. Scum are scum. I vote for scum, I find scum. It doesn't matter if other people have also found that same scum, I still from my own reasons have found the scum and will vote them. I could be a vanity vote, I could be the hammer vote, I don't care where I am on the wagon because it's irrelevant.

[True Ogre]

I'm just not a fan of your "nigh on untouchable town" list, mainly.

Let me fix that for me.

[davesaz]

I assume that the prospective effects of lynching players in 1382 are assuming

scum

lynches? What if you're wrong and they're town?

[beeboy]

Cerb, Piper, tammy, cakes and skybird never moved on your read list as well, Ranger.
The more I read it the more I read it the more gaps in your reads I see. The conclusion of your reads isn't the worst the worst but your progression sucks.
I will look at it again closer when it isn't 3:30

[beeboy]

Like Ranger I didn't see a lot of fluctuation in your reads which is incredibly scummy.

[Ranger]

I am scumreading the hell out of Ranger's entrance and progression.

Well tough.

I am town.

Enough people in this game can tell I am town.

A scumflip or two will make it obvious I am town.

So you'll have to deal with it.

Ranger could likely duplicate that particular sort of entrance as scum, so the entrance as a whole is null.

I wouldn't say that.

As I read the game, there was a clear progression in my reads. I gave you the exact page I was on when making a list, sometimes the exact post. I even had changes on the same page at least once if not twice. It's ridiculously easy from that to, if you go back and look, then extrapolate, "okay, what was on that page?" and figure out what caused the change, and I generally have assumed the people who townread it did this.

What did you hate about them?

904 felt all kinds of wrong. In particular, Mirhawk being among the likes felt out of place. Your middle-tier also felt out of whack. Pistachi0n felt too low, for instance, and you didn't explain {Pied Piper, TrueOgre}. Pied Piper felt too low especially without explanation, and TrueOgre too high for that same reason. Between {True Ogre, tictac}, you also get players who look like they're the scumbuddies-in-an-otherwise-town-list, similar to Mirhawk above.

You also had five scumreads (Friendless Seniors in this case looks like the scum-in-otherwise-town list), and two almost-scumreads (Spiffeh, Skybird).

It was just a very ewww-inducing post.

[beeboy]

VOTE: Ranger

[beeboy]

Sorry.

[Ranger]

I did skim recent events too, and yeah, Ranger ending up with Seniors & Mir as top scum is sketchy.
Current preferences pist>Seniors>Ranger>Mir

>"Ranger was sketchy for having Seniors and Mirhawk as top scum"
>Has Seniors as a preferred lynch above me.
(Not to mention, Mirhawk below me but still in the lynchable list.)

[Ranger]

I don't really like the fact she put Tammy up at a top tier when she was absent for like pages at a time and before that her posts didn't really sway me either way.

Well for a start, I'd be an utter hypocrite to say "Tammy looks good, aside from how little I've seen her" when I literally have to rant about my activity

every game

because people

somehow

get the impression that posting must be done every couple of hours rather than a few times in a day.

It'd be a lie to say I actually had anything for the townread. I didn't. SirCakez, there's reason for. Amihan, the reason is obvious enough. beeboy I can read well enough and I can tell you his early enthusiasm is basically the exact OPPOSITE of his scum game, so there's reason for that. Cerberus made himself obvtown almost immediately after coming in. There's the slight concern that his posting is not as dominating as is the norm from him, but I have good reason to believe this is not alignment indicative from him so he's town.

But Tammy?

I just felt like she was town.
If I had a reason, I'd tell you it, but I honestly don't have one. I just think she's town, and that feeling is strong enough to put her on that untouchable tier. It's actually inconvenient. It is also, however, the truth.

[beeboy]

Ranger you have never seen me play as scum so where did that come from?
Why was your initial read on me scum if my enthusiasm levels where highest at the start of the game?

[Ranger]

Why is there no justification for her Spiffeh and True Ogre scumreads, but there is for me and Seniors.

Because I'm pushing you and Seniors.

I haven't built a full case on you, nor a full case on Seniors (which would actually be much longer). I have given reasons. For Spiffeh, I did not give them because I held no interest in pushing him at the time. For True Ogre, I did not give them because I held no interest in pushing there: I

voted

TrueOgre, but I didn't push him.

Hey Ranger can you break down you initial Tammy read for me?

"Oh, Tammy posted. Town."

That's literally how it went. That exact thought process, snapping into place instantly. No reason, no logic, just instant townread.

What if you're wrong and they're town?

If I'm wrong I lynch the other.

If both are town, I fundamentally reevaluate my reads to check for the point in where I went wrong and I reread the game, rebuilding the list from scratch with the added information of the town flips, both lynch-wise and any existing kill-wise.

Of course, that's a mighty big "if". I really don't think I'm wrong on either. On my other scumreads, sure, on them, no. hiplop's posting looks like scum. This is VERY strongly Errantparabola's scumgame. I firmly believe Mirhawk is playing a scum game too.

VOTE: Mirhawk.

[Ranger]

Why was your initial read on me scum if my enthusiasm levels where highest at the start of the game?

Again, my read on you was

not

scum. We've been over this. Bottom of the list is not necessarily scum. It's just least-town. At the time, your posting did not read as enthusiastic. You were posting a lot, but it wasn't until later that your posting became truly energetic, and that's the point you shot up in my town list. The first signs of this were on page three, and then by page four you had a definitive difference between your town game and scum game. You were also saying a lot of good things and making great pushes, strong, passionate pushes, rather than sitting in the background. This is what placed you there, more or less.

[beeboy]

Ranger you have never seen me play as scum so where did that come from?
Why was your initial read on me scum if my enthusiasm levels where highest at the start of the game?

[True Ogre]

Okay. Here's my take on Tammy.

I really liked the burst of energy and the pushes on Mala and Nacho which seemed like efforts to engage them and sort them. They were different but they were present. It also felt a little like she was posting without care for how whe was appearing to others. Now what I don't like is the periods she's been absent, and I also have a suspicion surrounding the way she directly defended my own position. Even though it was correct and I had a rise in my chest when she stated things I thought were obvious, I've seen defenses of town come from scum just as much as from town. Her defense didn't seem shady but I really want her input into the game and there's no way at this point she's untouchable town on day 1 and without seeing more of her and the way she carries herself further.

I could almost say the inverse (roughly speaking) for the Mala/GM hydra although there are a couple of more obvious pingy things that make me put them into a nullscum bracket.
(Inverse is a bad way to characterise what I've seen here by the way, but I'm trying to get across that I have similar thought patterns that end up in different conclusions, for both slots).

So that's an explanation. I don't get yours much. It seems a bit mastina-ey in that nothing's really expanded upon except for your own process, and believe me whenever she and I have played together but separately I've tried to reach out to her on that front. I want a bit more, I want some internal workings to match with my own. I'm trying to do the same here with you.