In post 465, Ranger wrote:(
448 is also a scum post, but I'll get into the why later. Got other things I need to do at this moment.)
I'd guess your argument as to why is that panther was either coaching plob, or he thought that plob was struggling with this head to head to the point where either he'd be the D1 lynch or he'd be the inevitable retaliatory D2 lynch (or N1 vig)? If so that's plausible but far from a smoking gun, and would depend on plob's flip anyway. If not, I don't really see it.
I wouldn't say 100%, but there's a bluntness, an edge, more thinking, and seemingly more aggression from him in the town game compared to the wolf game, and this one better resembles his town game in those regards. I wouldn't bet the game on him flipping town (especially since coaching is a thing and he could simply be improving), but it's the sort of thing that makes me not interested at all in a D1 lynch of karnos.
I'd also agree that 317 is difficult to fake as a wolf, which means that he's either getting really solid coaching (and probably in day chat) or (likelier) he's just town. But most notably, his push on ploben seems generally righteous in my book, which SHOULD be the most important source of an AI read, but I'll +1 on ranger's read of karnos as town.
In post 536, PantherPunt wrote:(Signaling happens where I'm from bc often times the loner has a vig and if they target a bro they join the pack). As I continue to think about it, it's a weird dynamic. If they didn't recruit, the goons need to be careful that they don't lynch the traitor so there definitely is some semblance of motive for the traitor to try to tell the goons "don't push me bro."
I'd just recruit to eliminate that. I'd probably recruit and assign a JOAT and a rolecop. Because YOLO don't be a puss etc
FWIW this is like the exact opposite of how I'd handle it. I'd pick precisely zero powers, hope the town got hosed on powers, and basically "scum hunt" with the advantage of actual doubt regarding everyone's alignment. I don't think there's a single wolf power that is worth giving the town another PR (difficult to lynch and can potentially win it at night), and you can make a case that recruiting the goon is objectively worse EVEN WITHOUT the extra town PR (among other things, I think the traitor is cop-immune and loses that upon recruitment, and the BP helps a lot too, which i think he also loses if recruited).
Also, the wolf team is in serious trouble if D1 lynch is a wolf PR; the sheer risk of that possibility means that (IMO) wolves are better off not having any specific teammate(s) they MUST protect.
Then again, wolves apparently swept open 539 despite maxing out their powers and recruiting the traitor, so *shrugs*.
In post 557, Dunnstral wrote:Because I did
You didn't check what the setup of the game you were joining is...? Don't lie to me.
Some people don't. Some people don't even understand how their own role works (cough, cough, Postie in open 635). I'd be somewhat surprised if karnos completely ignored the setup, but wouldn't be stunned if he either skimmed or found it somewhat wolfy that someone would read the rules fully (I mean, it SHOULDN'T lean wolf, but ignorance of the rules and setup is typically more of a town-aligned trait, unfortunately - town may half-ass this sort of thing, but wolves are usually paying more attention).
In post 569, BTD6_maker wrote:Karnos still seems scummy, and is a moderate scum read. Chip Butty is a weak scum read.
I weakly townread Florestan and Dunstrall. Ploben is a moderate town read.
This is a shaky reads list at this point in the game. MAYBE okay on Flor/Dunn. But Chip as wolfy is weird, Karnos as wolfy is weird (though a popular opinion), Ploben as town is really weird.
Also +1 to panther's
574 and
579 and
585 responses.
In post 602, Dunnstral wrote:Nope. I was town in the newbie game, town in that off-site game you got me into, town in another off-site game hosted by plotinus, and then I've died two other times as town in ongoing games
Just call me townstral
As an aside, I am explicitly jealous. I've randed/subbed wolf WAY too often in my career so far. Also my first wolfing was with crunkus (who is great) and calvary (whose afk'ing probably cost us the game
), against a town of sjg, udc, trafficone, soah, revival (as sub), Luckbox, Cron, IAWY, Lord, and cuth, in a pretty town-sided setup (10v3 with a cop with N0 peek... who I ID'd before post 100 and shot N1
). Crunkus carrying it to final 3 anyway (before losing) was amazing. And Lord's graveyard meltdown was still GOAT.
In post 625, Dunnstral wrote:Like that post 300 from karnos is terrible in every way and you quote it and say he's playing
too well
to be scum?
What are your reads, or do you need to interact in real time for that?
I don't know that it's terrible from karnos, but "too good to be scum" is not how I'd react to that specific post.
In post 652, Ranger wrote:...
Dunnstral wrote:I actually agree that right away something feels off about kuroi
This certainly "helps" that as well!
And Kuroi does have a saving grace going on.
Kuroi wrote:I'm sorry, but I can't find you to be scum at all. I've seen your scum game and you're playing much too well for that.
He's seeing the exact same thing about karnos that I am, in knowing this isn't the same game from karnos at all.
That's literally it though. Nothing else there is town.
Except that's not really the same thing. "Playing too well" and "similar ISO" aren't the same thing. Even in your karnos=town argument, a lot of the focus was on his specific emotional reactions being really hard to fake, as opposed to a specific QUALITY of his play argument (though there was some of that). Like, I agree that karnos is likely town, but I'm not sold that kuroi's reasons here are necessarily sincere.
In post 687, PantherPunt wrote:...
...
Also, if you're referring to
231, I'm saying that Shadow appears to be scum reading Alpaca for reasons of supposed inactivity/lurking. Obviously there wasn't lurking because Alpaca was replaced. I'm here. (Tada!)
(I'm ignoring the fact that you ignored my point about the ploben "go girlfrand" thing that makes no sense).
In no way, shape, or form was Shadow scum reading Alpaca for 'reasons of supposed inactivity/lurking.' You're making things up in my opinion. Show me where in this post you got that:
...
*nods*
In post 697, PantherPunt wrote:...
Are you even reading posts prior to giving your made up interpretations?
In post 294, Shadow_step wrote:
You just pasted some link about some method ploben must be using(as town).
So that if and when ploben gets lynched you get some town creds
.
You know he is town and there is only one way that is possible.
More votes on Alpaca please..
How can you misinterpret this? Shadow is accusing Alpaca of looking for towncred when ploben flips. Alpaca is defending ploben by "wanting to defuse the case." Therefore the only way he's getting towncred is if ploben flips scum. You don't get towncred for defending someone who flips scum.
And if that wasn't clear enough Shadow goes on to make it explicitly clear by saying "you know ploben is town" via perfect information.
Panther has a point on this one. Shadow's point is essentially that Alpaca knows that ploben is town despite how wolfy he looks, and that this is therefore a slip. Now, the better argument here by shadow could have included "or maybe you're just a wolf defending your buddy", but that wasn't what shadow actually said. I'm more inclined to believe it's a mistake by Ranger than something meaningfully AI, but I don't see Panther's push here as necessarily ill.
*smith looks for kuroi push from ploben, smith fails to see kuroi push from ploben*. Smith does see lack of eagerness to push kuroi in
726 though. Also sees
730 as a "lynching Ranger yes, lynching Kuroi and BTD no" preference. Eventually plob falls in line on kuroi (to some degree), but a pretty clear preference to sheep on ranger instead of the other suspects.
In post 740, KuroiXHF wrote:603, 640
The context made me feel it was because of inactivity. Alpaca's posts were all questions in determining how the game was going and questioning others. The craziest thing he said was in 304 where he stated that he claimed he was considered scum because he was behind Ploben.
There is still nothing there that made it look like it was an inactivity vote. "context" without providing the explanatory context is basically just hand-waving.
but one of the key words that stuck with me was the word "Passive." As in, not being active. As in, lurking. The insinuation is that because Alpaca is passive, he is flying underneath the radar.
lolololol. This is just terrible. Yeah I'm fine with lynching this. I mean, not before ploben, but yeah let's lynch this. That is such a bullshit defense of panther's accusation. +1 to panther's
744 through 747. And 764 too.
Also, +1
Possible, but it's more indicative on kuroi than ranger.
In post 914, Ranger wrote:Dunnstral wrote:
Don't worry I fully intend to go after Kuroi tomorrow regardless of whether you flip mafia or town
And therein lies the difference between you and me.
You are avoiding someone you say is scum regardless of circumstances, to go after someone you say could be scum or town.
I am going after people I'm saying are scum regardless of circumstances, and won't go after someone who could be scum or town.
Dunn's point reads a lot more like "Kuroi is #2 wolf read, regardless of my read on you, who is my #1". I don't think I see an issue here.
In post 973, KuroiXHF wrote: In post 970, Dunnstral wrote:
No
I did ask if it was possible I had misunderstood after all, which is what seems to have happened. Trying to twist it into me pushing on you is a stretch.
I'm thinking at this point, most people currently on me are just looking for any possible reason to get me lynched.
As in...
If I say something that could possibly be construed as if I said something scummy or contradicted myself or double backed, they'll take it that way.
However...
If I say something that is townie, it's not factored in.
I actually want to say I've done more scum hunting than many others, despite the fact that I've only relatively recently joined in. I'm actually certain some are hiding in the shadows. When I have more time tomorrow, I'll dig deeper.
"There are suspicious people out there, and they're out to get me by biasing their reads unfairly somehow" *vomits*
+1 to dunn's
983 response
In post 1064, KuroiXHF wrote:Strong Town: Pantherpunt, Karnos
Lean Town: Ploben, Dunnstral
Null: Duppin, Florestan, Scott
Lean Scum: Ranger, Shadowstep, BTD6_Maker
Strong Scum: ChipButty
bizarre reads at: chip, panther (town is fine but hard town is iffy), ploben
ok reads at: karnos, maybe dunn (though null to me), flor, scott, ranger, btd
shadow reads like OMGUS, whihc maybe it's ok but I don't like that either
In post 1116, Shadow_step wrote: In post 1067, KuroiXHF wrote:I've answered both these questions. I didn't like how Shadowstep was scum reading the original holder of my slot and I suspect it was because of Alpaca's inactivity. Shadowstep's response was troubling because it seemed bitter and angered to my suspicions.
I also unvoted Ranger because even as scum, I feel like I could follow Ranger's reads to help me find scum. Right now, I have her locked. If she steers me astray, I feel like I could catch her. She wants me alive because I could help lynch her. Ergo, I want her alive until her scum buddies are caught.
Loving this Omgus scum read on me.
It's like he has no choice but to scum read me and is making any BS to justify the read.
In post 1117, KuroiXHF wrote:Thanks for the ad hominem. It's easy to insult me when you don't want to actually respond to my points.
I fail to see the ad hominem. Defined as "(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining." How in the world was this ad hominem and NOT a specific attack on kuroi's positions?
In post 1147, PantherPunt wrote:Ranger should write clickbait headlines
"If you could lynch the whole scum team without doing any work, would you? Because it's kinda possible."
"A case against three scum that will restore your faith in humanity."
There's a secret war going on in this town. And you may be fooled by people you trust."
"A beacon of town townieness gets pushed and pressured by scum who thought they were fooling everyone. You won't believe what happens next."
"Scum hate her! The secret to hunting mafiosos that they don't want you to know about!"
...
Except you get a 404 error when you click bc she won't even write the super disappointing content hidden behind the trumped up headline
I mean, this is largely a play style thing and not an AI read, but I still
'd. (
In post 1336, KuroiXHF wrote:That makes a lot of sense to me. I could buy a Ploben team with BTD6. They've made little connection with one another.
This is one of those things that makes me thing it's probably not exactly a kuroi/btd6/ploben team.
In post 1379, PantherPunt wrote:Second time this game Kuroi has called Ranger 'he' in a post after calling her 'she' the rest of the whole game. I am reiterating that I think it's intentional distancing (as I did in 958)
+1 on "flor"'s response. definite stretch.
In post 1384, ploben wrote:Oh right, sorry. I just missed the part where I said don't put pressure on me. Can you maybe highlight that for me?
Go re-read
1375. your meaning was VERY clear, especially in 212.
Or are you more concerned about spinning your version of what happened as opposed to, you know, the truth.
Yes, i just can't handle the truth. That's the only explanation
Seriously, at some point you may want to engage with the robust form of peoples cases against you (as crunkus would say). Or you could keep just picking around the edges and make sure that you will get yourself lynched. Since I think you're a wolf I'm fine with the latter. But on the off chance I'm wrong, feel free to actually try digging out of the hole you've dug for yourself. Your call.
Reads:
Day 1 town
{chip}
(chip has a town feel, seems honest, and I don't see any particular reason to question his seemingly universal town read)
Town lean
{karnos}
(see above)
Minor town lean
{duppin, Shadow}
(duppin's commentary on ploben felt righteous and thought out, even if I don't agree; shadow has made some good points at times and I'm not getting pinged by anything from his slot)
Null
{Dunn, Panther, Ranger, Florestan}
(Dunn could be a blatant teammate of ploben or just someone who got pocketed badly;
Panther could be trying to save teammate ploben or could just be over-engaged in his Ranger feud;
Ranger could be bussing ploben or just accurate town;
I don't think Flor has ever really made an impression on me. Meh. Whatever. D2 problem.)
FWIW, I'd note
524 as a specific example that feels like PP v Ranger is primarily feud-driven (
649 has shades of it the other side, though not quite as strongly). I feel like that makes it slightly likelier they're t/t or w/w (pure theater), though t/w in either direction are also reasonably possible. Nothing in my skim of their back and forth screams out as being AI in either direction for either of them.
>>rand wolf (reads wolfy independent of ploben and also reads reasonably well as teammates of ploben and each other):
{BTD6, kuroi}
>>>>>>rand wolf
{ploben}
)