Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

Isis laughs at me anyway, it's okay

[Prism]

Seriously though, am I crazy? Ctrl+F "Taylor" in Chara's ISO and "Chara" in Taylor's.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

she did volunteer as tribute

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I don't think you're crazy at all

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I've been thinking a lot about how I would get spared as a Chara on D1 and it's like really hard to do and I've been trying to match that profile to the play of people in this game and the closest I got was ele and that was wrong.

I think you could be right about it being TS on re-reading her ISO again. I'll have to re-read it in context to get a better feel.

[Prism]

Tayl0r's progressions have also just made like, no sense in general. I had her as probably scum with Sujimichi by default. The vote+response to redtea made me really doubt that.

but I cannot put into words how viscerally I hate Elements 410. The confidence in which they shoot down this read, embodied by the strong language "autological" and the hagfish knot simile, feels all kinds of wrong to me.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I don't even understand what elements 410 is talking about can you explain it to me like I'm 10 pls? thanks

[Prism]

Sure, Elements 410 is responding to these two posts by Hectic. Hectic townreads Chara for the post Elements quoted, Elements singles out this read specifically to shoot down with unique confidence/vigor.

Calling it autological was a bit confusing to me and is a bit ambiguous. It could mean Chara was describing themselves, or that Chara's post is describing itself. The distinction doesn't really matter imo. The "hagfish tying into a knot" just means that Chara is tying themselves into the multi-layered WIFOM game, in much the same way as the clip you've probably seen a hundred times.

It's the strength/vigor with which he shoots Hectic down here that bothers me.

[Prism]

Reading beeboy's posts on Tayl0r I'm not so sure anymore. I would have to compare it against his prior SvS pushes, but the stakes are fairly high here.

There's more than one way to test this theory. Voting Tayl0r would be one way, but flipping Sujimichi and seeing who the Chara is is another.

I've put off reading Tanner tonight long enough.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

TS iso kind of swings between spare/genocide pretty wildly lol

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I will have to think about 410 some more. I tried thinking about it now but I think I am too tired or something.

[Tanner]

If it really is just Suji and we're losing sleep over nothing I guess Isis is laughing at us?

i am very tempted to just go down this path.

i'm thinking about elements's 410, but it seemed like a fairly easy "read" to give to seem productive. maybe i'm too strong on my chara townread. i sure don't know anymore.

prism, how sure are you on puppy/ele not being s/s? also i'm around if needed.

[Prism]

Okay, Tanner's progressions in general-on Lavender, on Hectic, and on Puppy-are all pretty solid. They're lacking interactions with Elements past their initial vote but that's about it. Maybe worth expounding on that initial vote but it looks like they're following Chara for a bit and seeing what happens?

The only read of theirs that is worth more of an explanation to me is the progression from 892 to 898 on Elements.

Tanner-When you said the takeaway from the catchup was you were fine with Elements, can you talk what made you feel this way?

I really see like...no issues with this slot. If I squint hard they're faking uncertainty about Hectic in 347 and are doing a weird "OMGUS to get townread strategy today.

Scum with Tayl0r makes a bit of sense but for some reason I doubt it? Scum with Sujimichi is hypothetically possible? Interactions aren't clearing but seem less likely to me. I'm not really convinced Sujimichi is individually scum anymore to start, and I don't scumread Tanner at all.

[Prism]

I'll look again at Puppy for you, give me a second. I did this earlier tonight but I think it's clear how much I've been jumping around RIP.

[Prism]

I'm not really familiar with Puppy's meta but the sparing reasoning seems plausible to me as town. I really don't think there's any incentive to push it, period, really unless you're going for a Day 2 Chara spare win. That's really putting all of your eggs into one basket on something you know isn't likely to work. Previous spare discussions had gotten some scumreads and some townreads but really isn't going to help Puppy in the longrun. The wincon for scum here is pretty clearly the fact that they need 3 misfights and Puppy...really isn't searching for them. 692 is a really great post in hindsight, though.

I also just like, find two deepwolfs here so unlikely to begin with. Even if Puppy gets his two spares, unless Puppy is scum with one of Chara/Hectic/MT as Chara, all of which seem really unlikely, this isn't going to help his situation out at all.

I think the issues that stick out to me would be that I was too generous in my initial readthrough around the final vote, 900 actively hunts for who catboi wants to flip...but I still don't really see them as likely at this point.

[Prism]

If Lavender flips Chara tonight by the way I'm buying a bottle of wine and posting as I finish it Day 3.

[Morning Tweet]

If it really is just Suji and we're losing sleep over nothing I guess Isis is laughing at us?

i am very tempted to just go down this path.

i dove headfirst down this path at day start

The main person I'm interested in hearing from is Sujimichi. But it doesn't seem that they've had much of anything to say, isn't that right?

I think the worst part is that me going to bat this hard for the Sujimichi slot means we might just have to flip it regardless.

I feel really comfortable with Hectic atm, and have just kind of slotted Puppy as town for the Elements interactions. It didn't read SvS to me.

765, giving the slot a chance w/ a new player, is the only problem, and they joined me on Hectic. This is really consistent with 692, and they jump back to beeboy eventually.

I feel bad I haven't been considering arguments against fighting Sujimichi as much as I probably should have. However I do notice you're usuallly coming to conclusions I generally agreed with back when I was reading actively, which again makes me feel pretty comfortable knocking out Suji

You are doing a great job analyzing the thread though Prism right or wrong, you have quite a lot of conviction lol

[Prism]

Oh my god the fact that I can't just get more from the Sujimichi slot is driving my insane, trust me

I appreciate it. I'm really obsessive, and really,

really

hate losing. Even if the odds are in our favor, I don't want to get complacent, misfight, and then eat a nightkill that leaves me unable to affect the game further.

[Prism]

Also, to be blunt, right now I have nothing better to do so I might as well.

Pandemic szn.

[Tanner]

The only read of theirs that is worth more of an explanation to me is the progression from 892 to 898 on Elements.

Tanner-When you said the takeaway from the catchup was you were fine with Elements, can you talk what made you feel this way?

i think 898 was made after i read page 35 and the top of page 36, and i'm decently sure 865 is what made me feel okay enough with that fight on day one. not outright a scumread, but enough that i didn't feel the urge to strongly and actively fight it.

the progression on pooky plainly didn't make sense. and it reminded me how elements's 535 surprised me back when it was made, since i don't think i was a popular scumread at the time, so i was looking forward to seeing ele explain what he was seeing in me, both to see what i'm doing "wrong" and to hopefully help me sort him. then in the next post he unhurt and unhealed his votes and flaked out. i didn't think much of the post at the time, but 865 made me think that i'm giving a free pass where i maybe should not be doing so.

pedit: ton of posts, gimme a bit

[Tanner]

I'm not really familiar with Puppy's meta but the sparing reasoning seems plausible to me as town. I really don't think there's any incentive to push it, period, really unless you're going for a Day 2 Chara spare win. That's really putting all of your eggs into one basket on something you know isn't likely to work. Previous spare discussions had gotten some scumreads and some townreads but really isn't going to help Puppy in the longrun. The wincon for scum here is pretty clearly the fact that they need 3 misfights and Puppy...really isn't searching for them. 692 is a really great post in hindsight, though.

I also just like, find two deepwolfs here so unlikely to begin with. Even if Puppy gets his two spares, unless Puppy is scum with one of Chara/Hectic/MT as Chara, all of which seem really unlikely, this isn't going to help his situation out at all.

I think the issues that stick out to me would be that I was too generous in my initial readthrough around the final vote, 900 actively hunts for who catboi wants to flip...but I still don't really see them as likely at this point.

kinda playing devil's advocate here, but scum benefits from spares right now, even if we only end up sparing town. it's much better EV for them, and if not chara is a widely townread player, it lets them steer the game a bit longer while possibly leaving bad associates for townies who do end up being spared.

i agree it's a tinfoil and i agree we should be fighting the more scumread players as opposed to trying to snipe a deepwolf that may or may not exist, i'm just... i dunno, uneasy.

puppy's interactions with ele *are* decent from what i remember. i'd have to give them a reread and/or chat with puppy a bit more today.

If Lavender flips Chara tonight by the way I'm buying a bottle of wine and posting as I finish it Day 3.

i'm buying a bottle of vodka. will be posting as i get rushed to the ER for alcohol poisoning.

[Prism]

I dunno. I think we're basically on the same page right now, it seems like you're more inclined to view Puppy's spare as scummy and to think there's one or two deepwolves. I've come around to the one theory more, obviously. Is there anybody/anything else you want me to look at? I'm pretty close to retiring for the night but I think I have a little of gas still in the tank.

Somewhere, in what I really hope is an alternate universe and not this one, Tayl0r is stuck in a team with Sujimichi/redtea slot. She just wants this game to end already, but then I have to pull out the tinfoil conspiracy theories to drag it out or even snatch defeat from the jaws of victory

[Prism]

I think 1394 makes sense by the way, thank you.

Like I think it's pretty impossible to locktown him without more flips? but I really see no problems with the Tanner slot other than being cautious around Elements and now Puppy? The latter is a bit worse than the former but I think both of those are pretty fine?

[Prism]

It looks like you have a strong Chara townread if you want to talk more with me about that.

They literally went from my strongest TR to my pet scumread in like 30 minutes lmao

[Morning Tweet]

Who's you guys' overall best guess at Suji's partner? personally I anticipate it being the person we least expect and would've never gotten due to some kind of great interaction with Elements or what not. Just my guess though

That's probably another reason I'm not stressing over it too hard. I want to say tayl0r is town and I don't really have a reason but I'd like it to be more mindblowing than Lavender being scum as well

but it could just be lavender though ya