[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Hoopla]

I was thinking about solutions today. 1 scum PR, and then a fluctuating range of town PR's 1-3 seemed okay at first, but then it still leaves scum screwed in the situation you outlined. So, here is what I think;

0-2 Scum PR's, which leaves them plenty of options throughout the game, especially if they start bad. They can't get trapped by a massclaim.

1-2 or 1-3 Town PR's. 1-2 seems pretty low up against scum with potentially two PR's, but you still have to remember the town gets three mislynches, and roles such as Tracker and Jailkeeper increase in town value significantly once one scum is down, as they can start confirming players. If the town gets the vig, they get 3 mislynches and a night kill, which is a very fair deal considering they only need 2 correct lynches/kills to win.

I thought about 1-3 PR's and bringing in another role, but that just creates way too many scenarios, and to be honest I wouldn't know what else to use. You could calculate scum's roles first, and have town's PR options as '1-max available roles', so in the event scum get 2, town's PR options are now 1-2. But again, this seems unnecessarily complex.

I think I'm okay with this;

- There are four powerroles; Jailkeeper, 1-shot-vig, Tracker, Role-Cop

- Scum get 0-2 of these roles, chosen randomly by the moderator.

- Town get 1-2 of these roles, chosen randomly by the moderator.

- 2 mafia vs. 8 townies, Daystart

This gives enough safety to scum against an early massclaim, as town can't know how many roles each side has, and early exposure of PR's is more beneficial to scum. This also prevents the potential outlier cases of scum being lynched Day 1, and then roles such as Tracker and Jailkeeper quickly confirming townies, as these now can't be trusted as easily.

Looking at some worst-possible-draws for each set of roles, it isn't totally unfair;

Mafia 1-shot-vig
Mafia Jailkeeper
vs.
Town Role-Cop
5 x Vanilla townies

I'm not sure if this would be the worse set of possible roles for town, but it's the worse when it comes to amounts. This still gives the town 3 mislynches and a PR that could potentially give clues to the town. This isn't an unwinnable set-up for town, and definitely eclipses the worst-case-scenario for town in set-ups like F11.

Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon
vs.
Jailkeeper
1-shot-vig
4 x Vanilla townies

This isn't unwinnable for mafia - 3 mislynches isn't a lot when the first one is likely to be random. They do need to hit the Jailkeeper pretty early I think, and the vig could do damage, but they are safe from a massclaim and the roles chosen for town can't confirm any of them.

--

The difference between worst-case scenarios for town and scum isn't overly significant from what I can see, and should not differ too much with all the other combination of roles because they all have some town or scum value, because it almost serves as a natural balancing agent if you control the variable of how many each side can have.

To some it might seem unfair that scum has nearly the same odds of picking up as many or more PR's than town in a set-up (2:8) that would generally be scum biased. But when you look at what the roles actually do for scum, Tracker/Role-Cop serve as PR-finders, the vig provides a double kill, but still doesn't reduce the amount of mislynches, and Jailkeeper is still only good for dealing with town power - it kind of prevents the problem of scum being overpowered compared to the town, because the scum's power really only is useful if the town has good power too.

[Elscouta]

Two-Shot Nightless Vanilla

4 Scum
8 Townies

Townies have two lynch to get a scum. They win as soon as they lynch correctly, they lose if they mislynch two times.

Looks quite simple, fast, with a huge insensitive for scum to use group strategy (no bussing!).

[Hoopla]

Two-Shot Nightless Vanilla

4 Scum
8 Townies

Townies have two lynch to get a scum. They win as soon as they lynch correctly, they lose if they mislynch two times.

Looks quite simple, fast, with a huge insensitive for scum to use group strategy (no bussing!).

It's a good set-up, but it is mostly the same as Polygamist mafia, as far as I can tell.

[Johoohno]

Popularity Mafia

Only goons and vanillas (perhaps 3 goons and 9 vanillas?).

Day works as always (random voting, tempered arguments, voting and lynching - well you know the drill)

At night EVERYONE sends in a person they wants to have nightkill immunity, and the one with most immunity supporters gets the immunity that night. You shouldn't be able to vouch for yourself.

Comments?

I agree that only townies should get the right to immunity vote, and I think it would be interesting if the winner was public information in the same post where the NK deathscene was posted. This could potentially go a long way towards confirming someone as town... for example "Mirth was was voted NK immune. There was no NK." would prety much mean that Mirth was the NK target, barring some scum gambit of not killing because they expected one of their members to win the Nk immunity election. Could be interesting play.

Perhaps 2:7 instead of 3:9?

I don't think I want to make the popularity vote public (if I don't that will then leave town something extra to discuss)

I'm curious why 2:7 might be better than 3:9? I might want to go for the smaller game since I like those a bit better.

[Beefster]

New idea?

Psychic Mafia

2 Telepathic Mafia Goons (day talk and night talk)
2 Telepathic Twins (Freemasons that can day talk and night talk)
1 Lie Detector
1 Vision Injector (flavored Friendly Neighbor)
6 Vanilla Townies
---Day Start---

That should work, but it might need an extra goon for balance.

If this is open, all players would start the game saying "I'm town", making the lie detector a cop.

Scum could fakeclaim lie detector, thus nullifying that. Which one do you believe?

Or put a restriction on it so that you can't lie detect on claims. That would make things more interesting anyway.

[FakeGod]

Parity Mafia

3 Mafia Goons
1 Parity Detective
1 Doc
6 Townies

Parity Detective investigates two people during the night, and gets "same" result if their alignments (town-sided, mafia-sided) are same, and gets "different" result if their alignments are different.

I think this is a stronger version of a cop, but town only has 1 mislynch in this setup.

[FakeGod]

(In)Sanity Madness!

1 Mafia Detective
2 Mafia Goons
1 Insane Cop
1 Sane Cop
1 Doctor
4 Townies

Mafia Detective investigates 1 player's role every night.

When cops claim, it's highly encouraged for the MD to fakeclaim as well.

Every night, town receives two legitimate cop investigations, but increases chances for MD to find the PRs.

[Crazy]

In what universe are both Night Watch and Unclean considered balanced?

If Night Watch is balanced, then Unclean ridiculously favors scum. If Unclean is balanced, then Night Watch ridiculously favors town.

How large is this spectrum of "balance?"

[Chronopie]

I think that unclean ought to be modified to be a Cop Head Start game. input?

[Beefster]

Yeah. A cop head start would probably help.

[bv310]

Agreed.

Hey Farside, for the next game could you put a blatantly unbalanced, small size game? I've always wanted to play one of those.

[Hoopla]

Bait and Switch

Mafia

1x 1-Shot-Janitor
1x Day Role-Cop

Town

1x Tracker
1x Watcher
5x Townies

- 9 Players, Day start
- No mafia Day Talk
- Both scum members receive result of Role-Cop's result during the Day
- Janitor can kill and use Janitor action in same night
- Janitor makes targeted player flip ???, if chosen for the Night Kill
- Janitor can kill and use Janitor action on self or partner

Nine players gives the town enough days to allow three mislynches before they lose. The day-cop is designed to give mafia a head start - a chance to catch a power-role early and open up the option of using their Janitor role Night 1, making a fakeclaim other than vanilla safe. Power roles for town have slightly less influence especially if the Janitor has used it's action, and creates a net of wifom near endgames with what the scum know and don't know. Importantly, a scum Day 1 lynch won't demoralise them, as their individual roles are useable on their own.

[Fenchurch]

Farside likes game requests to go here I think?

I've just finished a vengeful, it was good, and I'd like to play another.

[StrangerCoug]

DOUBLE F11... WELL, KIND OF

Split the 18-player game in two and independently generate each half. Half 1 is the standard F11; half 2 replaces the cop, doc, and roleblocker with a tracker, watcher, and ninja respectively. Then combine them back together.

For players who like lists:

1. One of these with equal likelihood:
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia roleblocker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 5 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 cop, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 doctor, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia roleblocker, 7 vanilla townies
2. One of these with equal likelihood:
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia ninja, 1 tracker, 1 watcher, 5 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 tracker, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 watcher, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia ninja, 7 vanilla townies

What do you guys think?

There could also be a game with just the second half, a good name being

NINJA MAFIA

.

[animorpherv1]

I nominate the both of them together for a game.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@StrangerCoug: I would most definitely sign-up for that game. However, I have a question:

How many deaths will be needed until the combination happens?

[Me=Weird]

What does "defindently" mean?

[farside22]

Agreed.

Hey Farside, for the next game could you put a blatantly unbalanced, small size game? I've always wanted to play one of those.

That happened once already but thanks for the laugh.

[Chronopie]

second nom for F11^2

also pre-/in

[Herodotus]

DOUBLE F11... WELL, KIND OF

Split the 18-player game in two and independently generate each half. Half 1 is the standard F11; half 2 replaces the cop, doc, and roleblocker with a tracker, watcher, and ninja respectively. Then combine them back together.

For players who like lists:

1. One of these with equal likelihood:
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia roleblocker, 1 cop, 1 doctor, 5 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 cop, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 doctor, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia roleblocker, 7 vanilla townies
2. One of these with equal likelihood:
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia ninja, 1 tracker, 1 watcher, 5 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 tracker, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 2 Mafia goons, 1 watcher, 6 vanilla townies
     
   • 1 Mafia goon, 1 Mafia ninja, 7 vanilla townies

What do you guys think?

There could also be a game with just the second half, a good name being

NINJA MAFIA

.

Are all the mafia teamed together? If so, it's probably unbalanced in favor of the scum. If not, it's probably unbalanced against them.
But it could be adjusted... maybe separate scumteams and deduct a VT from each half?

[StrangerCoug]

@StrangerCoug: I would most definitely sign-up for that game. However, I have a question:

How many deaths will be needed until the combination happens?

See below. As conceived, the two halves are already combined.

Are all the mafia teamed together? If so, it's probably unbalanced in favor of the scum. If not, it's probably unbalanced against them.

I was thinking of teaming the Mafia together here. It's clear to me that 14:2:2 is imbalanced toward town, but I would like to know how this setup played 14:4 is imbalanced toward scum.

But it could be adjusted... maybe separate scumteams and deduct a VT from each half?

That was going through my head too.

[Trojan Horse]

So, kills by the ninja can't be seen by trackers and watchers?

Then the mafia should just let the ninja make ALL the kills; that way, trackers and watchers are useless until the ninja is dead.

A full-strength mafia ninja is too strong, IMO. There should be a limit to how many times a ninja can make an invisible kill. (One or two times should suffice.)

[farside22]

@SC: I'm a bit confused here. Is there two separate games going on with that set up and then combine at a certain point?

[ooba]

Make it 14:2:2. Every Mafia (Goons and RB,if any) get one-shot nightkill immunity. Ninja, if any, gets no night kill protection.

[Alduskkel]

Make it 14:2:2. Every Mafia (Goons and RB,if any) get one-shot nightkill immunity. Ninja, if any, gets no night kill protection.

With a 50% chance of there being only 1 Doctor in an 18p setup, if a Mafia fails to make a kill then they're just going to target the player a second time. So you're just delaying the cross killing.