In post 1416, Looker wrote:Why would you assume your reasoning is different from everyone else's? How willing would you be to eliminate Raya
i usually take an odd look at games. the way i get reads on people is usually from a different direction to mostpeople
i did look at raya in my post 1037. they looked suspicious, but from a point of view of looking for them to be scum. i havent done a full depth dive at everything raya has posted yet. i wouldnt vote for them yet, i dont want to move my vote right now
In post 1402, callforjudgement wrote:I'm not defending Frogster to get towncred on myself. In fact, I knew when I made the post that I might get scumread for it. I don't care, though; this looks like the sort of game that will get solved by PoE, and being able to remove one player from the PoE will be helpful for that, even if they are being worse than useless at the moment.
I don't believe Frogster (or anyone else) is capable of faking Frogster's play this game when scum. That sort of violent self-destructive tunnelling is just not something someone can do without truly believing in it. (I appreciate that this argument is more convincing to me than it is to other people, because a hypothetical scum!Frogster could truly believe that a hypothetical scum!me is scum. But if you have an argument that needs me to be scum to be correct, it makes more sense to focus on me first.)
I think it's very unlikely that this setup is 9:4. (This is partially due to reviewer meta. Talking only about completed games only because I don't know the setup of ongoing games and can't talk about them anyway, the last time mastina reviewed a 9:4, there was a lot of discussion in the review thread about whether the game could be Normal; this ended up dominating discussion, and mastina accidentally entirely forgot to do a balance review. The game turned out to be very scumsided (it would have been scumsided even as a 10:3), mastina got called out on it in the Normal Review Group forums, and apologised. Given what happened last time, I think that it's basically impossible that she makes such a mistake again, and it's almost impossible to cram enough roles into a 9:4 with a normal day/night cycle to balance it,
especially
if you're letting the scum multitask by default). Incidentally, in the very unlikely situation that the setup
is
9:4, this almost guarantees that Walter is scum because otherwise it would have been almost trivially easy for scum to redirect the day 1 deadline wagon without looking overly suspicious.
The last 9-4 I was in had a like 8 person neighborhood, a traitor, a cop, an IC, a babysitter, and an informed goon. Scum won easily and that was with elimming traitor day 1.
That sounds unbalanced. Surely there can be a way to balance a 9-4.
In post 1427, Frogsterking wrote:That sounds unbalanced. Surely there can be a way to balance a 9-4.
There is. Make the setup 10-3.
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:05 pm
by callforjudgement
In post 1423, RCEnigma wrote:I think it's very unlikely that this setup is 9:4. (This is partially due to reviewer meta. Talking only about completed games only because I don't know the setup of ongoing games and can't talk about them anyway, the last time mastina reviewed a 9:4, there was a lot of discussion in the review thread about whether the game could be Normal; this ended up dominating discussion, and mastina accidentally entirely forgot to do a balance review. The game turned out to be very scumsided (it would have been scumsided even as a 10:3), mastina got called out on it in the Normal Review Group forums, and apologised. Given what happened last time, I think that it's basically impossible that she makes such a mistake again, and it's almost impossible to cram enough roles into a 9:4 with a normal day/night cycle to balance it,
especially
if you're letting the scum multitask by default). Incidentally, in the very unlikely situation that the setup
is
9:4, this almost guarantees that Walter is scum because otherwise it would have been almost trivially easy for scum to redirect the day 1 deadline wagon without looking overly suspicious.
The last 9-4 I was in had a like 8 person neighborhood, a traitor, a cop, an IC, a babysitter, and an informed goon. Scum won easily and that was with elimming traitor day 1.[/quote]
For the record, RCEnigma and I are talking about the same game, Mini Normal 2058.
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:06 pm
by callforjudgement
Also I messed up quote tags in the above, the bit that shows as being from RCEnigma was actually from me, the bit before the [/quote] is from RCEnigma.
Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:10 pm
by ItalianoVD
For the record, between the two (Raya and CFJ) I am more willing to vote for CFJ than Raya.
In post 1366, ItalianoVD wrote:@Raya: Your responses to my questions seem very townie looking at face value. I can’t know if this is your meta or not. Why do you feel it was okay to sacrifice shelly?
I feel like from my perspective I usually come across quite townie when I actually try as town. I wish I could give this game that effort right now. As scum I tend to be pretty obvious, I come across as unnatural and it's easy to see through my plans. Of course scum always feel like their scummy so maybe I'm not as bad at scum as I think?
Without knowing how you actually play as both alignments it’s hard to know what you mean by “obvious” and “unnatural”. What differences are there or can be seen when you are “trying as town” as opposed to not trying?
In post 1405, Raya36 wrote:I don't remember saying I was okay with sacrificing Shelly but there was a lot of suspicion on that slot so even if I read it as town I'd have been fine with the elimination. I did consistently read her as scummy-appearing town. It's still interesting how easy that elimination went through when there wasn't much of a push.
It may go against the grain, but I like this response. I was asking Raya this question as if she was scum sacrificing her scumbuddy and she answered it oblivious to the reasoning behind the question. If you are faking this response Raya, then kudos to you.
In post 1408, Frogsterking wrote:Yes Raya and Italiano are both motivated by fear of being incorrect.
Italiano is more specific in that his fear is in being incorrect about his scum reads, which is causing him to double take his reads continuously. Raya also appears to fear being incorrect about her scum read on Walter, with the opposite reaction of doubling down under pressure.
Raya, the issue I have with your slot is that you're not only absent from the game, you also appear significantly guarded in your thoughts and feelings. Being busy explains the absence but not necessarily the guardedness.
I think appearing guarded in this lobby is quite a feat, because I don't think this is the most trusting group of people in the world.
Fear of being incorrect is not it at all. I could be wrong, but that doesn’t motivate my actions. The evidence of the shelly wagon and the interactions everyone had with that slot is pretty telling. Shelly is a confirmed flip so I want to use that information as the foundation for where I go. I don’t want to speculate, because I don’t have to.
In post 1366, ItalianoVD wrote:@Raya: Your responses to my questions seem very townie looking at face value. I can’t know if this is your meta or not. Why do you feel it was okay to sacrifice shelly?
I feel like from my perspective I usually come across quite townie when I actually try as town. I wish I could give this game that effort right now. As scum I tend to be pretty obvious, I come across as unnatural and it's easy to see through my plans. Of course scum always feel like their scummy so maybe I'm not as bad at scum as I think?
Without knowing how you actually play as both alignments it’s hard to know what you mean by “obvious” and “unnatural”. What differences are there or can be seen when you are “trying as town” as opposed to not trying?
Honestly I'm not too sure but when I was more active over the summer I noticed that I was getting correctly townread quite a bit and they were usually voiced to be strong townreads. I think a part of it is as town I'll be very transparent, ask players lots of questions, genuinely try to be engaged and post lots. I'm much less open as scum and I'm always worried about what I'm saying being scummy whereas as town I don't really care as much if I sound scummy. And also as scum I struggle to come up with my own pushes and sometimes and I think it shows.
In post 1405, Raya36 wrote:I don't remember saying I was okay with sacrificing Shelly but there was a lot of suspicion on that slot so even if I read it as town I'd have been fine with the elimination. I did consistently read her as scummy-appearing town. It's still interesting how easy that elimination went through when there wasn't much of a push.
It may go against the grain, but I like this response. I was asking Raya this question as if she was scum sacrificing her scumbuddy and she answered it oblivious to the reasoning behind the question. If you are faking this response Raya, then kudos to you.
Oh I thought you meant sacrifice as in eliminate since I had a townread on her.
In post 1307, Raya36 wrote:
Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.
I'm getting things confused. Which post numbers were for which instances?
So this is what Walter was pushing as PR fishing: 397. It was just a joke, not PR pushing at all. And I think it was scummy of Walter to push it as PR fishing.
This is RCE's fakeclaim that I'm scumreading: 192.
Where was Walter pushing this?
Post 192 is a Gamma Emerald post, not a fakeclaim from RCE
In post 1416, Looker wrote:Why would you assume your reasoning is different from everyone else's? How willing would you be to eliminate Raya
i usually take an odd look at games. the way i get reads on people is usually from a different direction to mostpeople
i did look at raya in my post 1037. they looked suspicious, but from a point of view of looking for them to be scum. i havent done a full depth dive at everything raya has posted yet. i wouldnt vote for them yet, i dont want to move my vote right now
How close to deadline are you willing to wait before the move? What are your opinions on Gamma Emerald's, ItalianoVD's, and Frogsterking's votes?
In post 1366, ItalianoVD wrote:@Raya: Your responses to my questions seem very townie looking at face value. I can’t know if this is your meta or not. Why do you feel it was okay to sacrifice shelly?
I feel like from my perspective I usually come across quite townie when I actually try as town. I wish I could give this game that effort right now. As scum I tend to be pretty obvious, I come across as unnatural and it's easy to see through my plans. Of course scum always feel like their scummy so maybe I'm not as bad at scum as I think?
Without knowing how you actually play as both alignments it’s hard to know what you mean by “obvious” and “unnatural”. What differences are there or can be seen when you are “trying as town” as opposed to not trying?
Honestly I'm not too sure but when I was more active over the summer I noticed that I was getting correctly townread quite a bit and they were usually voiced to be strong townreads. I think a part of it is as town I'll be very transparent, ask players lots of questions, genuinely try to be engaged and post lots. I'm much less open as scum and I'm always worried about what I'm saying being scummy whereas as town I don't really care as much if I sound scummy. And also as scum I struggle to come up with my own pushes and sometimes and I think it shows.
In post 1405, Raya36 wrote:I don't remember saying I was okay with sacrificing Shelly but there was a lot of suspicion on that slot so even if I read it as town I'd have been fine with the elimination. I did consistently read her as scummy-appearing town. It's still interesting how easy that elimination went through when there wasn't much of a push.
It may go against the grain, but I like this response. I was asking Raya this question as if she was scum sacrificing her scumbuddy and she answered it oblivious to the reasoning behind the question. If you are faking this response Raya, then kudos to you.
Oh I thought you meant sacrifice as in eliminate since I had a townread on her.
i read over a couple of your towngames, and i have to say that this feels different than those other games. youve been pretty absent here and havent committed to any pushes.
In post 1307, Raya36 wrote:
Those were two different situations though. I didn't think what Walter was pushing at the time was PR fishing and his pushed were weak. This is a completely difference instant.
I'm getting things confused. Which post numbers were for which instances?
So this is what Walter was pushing as PR fishing: 397. It was just a joke, not PR pushing at all. And I think it was scummy of Walter to push it as PR fishing.
This is RCE's fakeclaim that I'm scumreading: 192.
Where was Walter pushing this?
Post 192 is a Gamma Emerald post, not a fakeclaim from RCE
Looks like we both got confused. This was the fake claim he pushes. It was clearly fake and a joke because Nos just asked for someone to fake a guilty since they were bored. Then Walter quickly backs off when some of us disagree. 574
In post 1366, ItalianoVD wrote:@Raya: Your responses to my questions seem very townie looking at face value. I can’t know if this is your meta or not. Why do you feel it was okay to sacrifice shelly?
I feel like from my perspective I usually come across quite townie when I actually try as town. I wish I could give this game that effort right now. As scum I tend to be pretty obvious, I come across as unnatural and it's easy to see through my plans. Of course scum always feel like their scummy so maybe I'm not as bad at scum as I think?
Without knowing how you actually play as both alignments it’s hard to know what you mean by “obvious” and “unnatural”. What differences are there or can be seen when you are “trying as town” as opposed to not trying?
Honestly I'm not too sure but when I was more active over the summer I noticed that I was getting correctly townread quite a bit and they were usually voiced to be strong townreads. I think a part of it is as town I'll be very transparent, ask players lots of questions, genuinely try to be engaged and post lots. I'm much less open as scum and I'm always worried about what I'm saying being scummy whereas as town I don't really care as much if I sound scummy. And also as scum I struggle to come up with my own pushes and sometimes and I think it shows.
In post 1405, Raya36 wrote:I don't remember saying I was okay with sacrificing Shelly but there was a lot of suspicion on that slot so even if I read it as town I'd have been fine with the elimination. I did consistently read her as scummy-appearing town. It's still interesting how easy that elimination went through when there wasn't much of a push.
It may go against the grain, but I like this response. I was asking Raya this question as if she was scum sacrificing her scumbuddy and she answered it oblivious to the reasoning behind the question. If you are faking this response Raya, then kudos to you.
Oh I thought you meant sacrifice as in eliminate since I had a townread on her.
i read over a couple of your towngames, and i have to say that this feels different than those other games. youve been pretty absent here and havent committed to any pushes.
I definitely agree that my play is very different this game and honestly more reflective of my scum game than my town game but it's not because I'm scum. Univeriery just started and it's all online (I'm in 7 courses) which I'm not used to so I needed to adjust to that the first couple weeks but now that I'm more adjusted I'm finding a bit more time to post. So hopefully that explains why I'm a bit more detached than usual.
In post 1427, Frogsterking wrote:That sounds unbalanced. Surely there can be a way to balance a 9-4.
There is. Make the setup 10-3.
I was thinking a vig, a couple different investigatives, a watcher or a doctor or both, additionally some kind of alternative pr like a day messager, vs a role blocker and three goons. Something like that.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:22 am
by Frogsterking
Also I feel like it's getting close to time for Raya to claim.
In post 1427, Frogsterking wrote:That sounds unbalanced. Surely there can be a way to balance a 9-4.
There is. Make the setup 10-3.
I was thinking a vig, a couple different investigatives, a watcher or a doctor or both, additionally some kind of alternative pr like a day messager, vs a role blocker and three goons. Something like that.
You can create a setup that's win/loss balanced along those lines, but it'd be no fun to play. Either you get saved by the power roles and town wins, or you don't and scum wins. A VT would have very little influence over how the game went.
In post 1427, Frogsterking wrote:That sounds unbalanced. Surely there can be a way to balance a 9-4.
There is. Make the setup 10-3.
I was thinking a vig, a couple different investigatives, a watcher or a doctor or both, additionally some kind of alternative pr like a day messager, vs a role blocker and three goons. Something like that.
You can create a setup that's win/loss balanced along those lines, but it'd be no fun to play. Either you get saved by the power roles and town wins, or you don't and scum wins. A VT would have very little influence over how the game went.
I was thinking that as well.
To be fun and balanced the best try seems no VTs, 4-5 power roles, 4-5 unusual and impactful town roles (like the day messager), vs a power scum and three goons.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:44 am
by Frogsterking
Also I read through that 9-4 game and I can see how it left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:45 am
by WaltertheDunce10
K so pretty much has to be a 10-3
RCe why are you still selfvoting?
you arent even on the wagon and it isnt at L-1....[/quote
]
I said something similar a few days ago. I didn't say claim, I just said that the day seems to be drifting towards their lynch and they should probably try and alter the course if they didn't want to get killed.