NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Nero Cain]

I feel that once people have expressed frustration, scum would be more likely to avoid that

and didn't he do that when he said

Just a note. I have been officially asked by two people to modify my posting and criticized by two others. Out of courtesy I will do so.

?

I disagree? I know for me at least, being confrontational is a pretty big scumtell. As scum, I tend to dig in and OMGUS hard or whatever. Totally ignoring pressure on you ALWAYS gets people to call you out. Rogers is new (supposedly?) so I guess he wouldn't be that aware, still Rogers is town though.

Rogers isn't you though. No one scum is the same and no scumtell is 100%.

actual reads though some I'm not too confident in.

Are these still accurate reads or have you changed this list at all? Would you mind putting them in order of strength (top being most confidence)?

yea, still my reads list though I guess I should give PA a chance. I ABSOLUTLY want all of Rach, Blight and Chemist gone before lylo. I fully admit that I'm fencesitting on Talah. I'm pretty much with Snowstorm on this, I didn't like Rogers attack on her at all. The only difference is that while, yes, I can understand the argument that Talah being serious about a bad argument was scummy I don't find it bad myself. IMO, it seems perfectly reasonable to ask why you are being attacked. I could see her ATE from scum gambiting to stay alive. Rachs chainsaw vote on Luca kinda doesn't sit well with me though and makes me wonder if Blight is a mislynch but I still don't like Blight all that much.

Rogers
RachMarie
BipolarChemist
Luca Blight
Snork
PeregrineV
Zdenek
AngryPidgeon
talah

[RachMarie]

Nero

I did not vote for Luca as a chainsaw. There is something about the dude that is really screaming to me and I am working on figuring it out.

[KoreanBBQ]

Well, to be fair, BioChemist has been chatting it up on site chat the last 2 days so I'm pretty much thinking he's scum. I mean yeah, he just got back from V/la but you voted me when I just got back from V/LA so whats the difference there?

[Nero Cain]

Well, to be fair, BioChemist has been chatting it up on site chat the last 2 days so I'm pretty much thinking he's scum. I mean yeah, he just got back from V/la but you voted me when I just got back from V/LA so whats the difference there?

[talah]

Quick drop in- so a quick note to all.

Vote: Talah

You were already voting me, and stated your case in Post 1178.

Which is actually just a bunch of quotes which agree with Rogers that my play in Gundam is different from my play here followed by a vote with what seems to be the fewest words you can muster:

@talah-

You are in luck. Rogers has pinpointed the precise reason. And he cares. And still, yes I do.

Vote: talah

Also, the snork question was a legitimate question, and he had more patience than I would have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl8ajhu_e5Y

..and then wash your hands of further case-bringing in order to prove your point.

But if Rogers was right about my play being so different in Gundam - why didn't you notice it first and say something? Ask me something about it?
And in Gundam you were there right through the whole Wake debacle. You've seen me have doubt, express emotion, scream opinions, rage.

So what exactly are you seeing as different?

I ctrl+f-d Rogers iso for 'talah'. The count was 250. He 'only' posted 391 times. That's not "good scumhunting" and "town play" - it's "crazed obsession".
And it gets wearing. I don't know if he's scum, I don't know if I provoked him to it, I don't know if he's a Wake alt, I just don't even fucking know.

You also owe me an explanation regarding unflipped associatives - ie my question in 795 regarding you wondering if I could be bussing Luca in the in-thread Mason QT you started with Pidgeon.

Day 1 Mason QT

Check Luca's ISO. Apologizing prod-dodging and a defense of bjc. And talah could be bussing for towncred. Yates wagon is non-starter. My ThAd townread is hard-gut (see 588), so, barring an unusual turn of events, probably not.

@Pere - I don't know why you're scumreading me and I'm having trouble caring. But you *really* think I'm *bussing* Luca?

---
So...

Pere

Is a mixed bag. I originally had him as likely town because he usually has a pretty sparse and neutral townplay from what I remember and I wanted to see how that panned out as a tell having not seen him play scum before. Really early on I thought he and Admiral might be crumbing masons and decided to steer clear of that too (and did note it in one of my earlier posts). His activity seems up here and he seems to be a lot more opinionated than I remember generally. I obviously don't like the vote and push on me with no real reference to why I'm a preferable lynch to Luca, but I'd expect him to have an extremely strong case to push so hard for my lynch Day 1.

Ultimately he's in my "wait and see" basket with a possible scumlean.

Incidentally I don't think I've ever seen Pere lose patience, and he experienced BulbaFenix vs talah in FE:A, the townshitting argument of the century. So that's just guff.

[talah]

Nero's town.

I'm gonna call Nero scum. Straight up.

Sorry can't take the posting attack pressure. That attack has broken me. Thanks Snor.

Mod replace me.

.....................................................................

I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG!

:( :( :(

Although I'm cautious of Nero's scumgame, I see this as a massive spontaneous subconscious slip.
I like the flow of his posting this game as well, from troll-bravado, to taking on Rogers, to confronting Snork, pretty much the lot.

Deas is town.

I don't know if I need to say much about this, except to reciprocally mention that I don't doubt that Deas could fool me as scum.
However... there's a huge town-vibe about Deas which was absolutely not present last time I played with him.

For me, this pretty much epitomises it:

Taleh, is this DV dotting i's and crossing t's?

I really dislike that first sentence and

that question about why someone would ask for a link to a game odd

.

Are you trying to scumread me?

[talah]

On Snork:

Quite interesting and I don't know that I want to commit to a read just yet.

I had a moment of "maybe he's town" during the slapfight:

It is extremely difficult for me to refrain from capslock raging at you right now for twisting the point into oblivion and playing stupid.

..where I'd just jammed a post through over the top of preview edit almost simultaneously:

Like... this would be pretty easy for town to answer you know... I mean.. at this point I just want to force you to commit to your method of scum hunting so I can call you out on it.

And your responses are increasingly frustrating.

Hey - MY responses are not increasingly frustrating, since you're after a straight 'yes' or 'no'.

YOURS on the other hand, are inherently obfuscatory, because you're refusing to even clarify what the fuck you mean, and refusing to accept my answer in anything other than 'yes' or 'no' format.

Hey look, I understand, your MO is to lynch the juiciest player who might actually have a late game going on.
Great! Keep about it.

And in the meantime

ANSWER MY FUCKING QUESTION

BEFORE TEMPTING MY GOOD GRACES

BY HUMOURING YOUR BULLSHIT

...which made me think momentarily that we might have similar levels of frustration going on.

However I really didn't like his opening couple of posts (well the reads really) and really really didn't like AP whiteknighting him on his entrance - although that's really nothing to do with Snork himself and I'll get back to AP later.

Most of Snork's other posts - well I dunno. He only replaced in not long ago and [sarcastica]fantastically[/sarcastica] has over a hundred of them and I'm having trouble remembering a lot of what he's said, but he seems to be doing the rounds questioning people with his time on gut-feel-readalong.

Probably "wait and see" with a slight townlean.

[talah]

Back in a bit.

[talah]

I'm really not going to get through this tonight.
At least not in the detailed format I'd planned.

Scum

AP - Shitslinging, "buzzword' scumhunting, riling Rogers up or riffing off him over me-scum (his ISO also has 100+ 'talah' mentions out of roughly 100 posts which is proportionally worse than Rogers which I just spotted. Even if you consider some of those are quotes - that's a lot of fucking focus to not be bringing a coherent case)
Snow - "just look at his iso, that did it for me" on really no push but then defends the read as his own
Luca - "I apologise, I'll put time into the game" --> into "fuck you guys I'm lurking and that's a towntell"

Maybe-scum

Pere - cites meta, doesn't specify meta, meta is wrong

Dunno

Aptil - don't like aptil as a counterwagon to Luca
mastin - waiting...
Snork - Really want to see where he's going and the 'pothead' defence for not being able to explain something which he's literally just asserted isn't giving me warm fuzzies
matt - I'd actually forgotten matt was in the game until I started doing this list
penguin - waiting on input. Rogers could have been scum or town and any other read I could give would be purely subjective. I'd tend to think scum, but have an open mind.

Maybe-town

Admiral - don't understand the 4nx or aptil wagons unless they were about creating a wagon for analysis and providing an alternative if Luca claims something unlynchable respectively and I don't generally give town credit for that kind of subtlety - if it was something different I'm interested
Chemist - misgivings here about v/la and catchup which hasn't eventuated (also I'm still not understanding the sarcasm thing but I liked his "probably cause of posts like this" on Rach because it's committing to a stance)
Rach - eh. I think she's really hard to read and most of the time it's about substance rather than content if that makes any sense.
Damon - put himself on the line with the 4nx wagon and I like his posting reading along. I liked his comment about no-lynch not being an option (and I will fully reverse my opinion of that if we find out that there are both werewolf and mafia in the game). I also can't remember a single case for him as scum, although I do remember not liking the pushers. So leaning town.

Prob-town

4nx - reaction to his wagon and posts before that
Yates - I like his posting generally but it hasn't been all that memorable - taking it on Rach's authority that he can blend in as scum as I haven't seen his play but have read a couple of games, I think. In this tier because I think he's accountable but hasn't seen a lot of pressure yet and the interaction we had earlier was fairly spontaneous iirc
Zdenek - He's pushed but not in any concentrated direction. If anything I'm sketchy on the fake vig/hammer and would like to know if anyone's seen him do that before as town. Otherwise okay

Town

Deas - Not scum-deas
Nero - If he's playing a scumgame, it's a fucking good scumgame.

Anyway, that's it. That's all I'm getting to tonight.

Next steps:

Luca claim --> If unlynchable --> Lynch me.
There's a spectacular amount of wagon analysis to be had from both my flip and Luca's now.
I'm VT.

[PeregrineV]

@Talah- Yes to all.

I did mention it (768), and I asked you about it (768). If you wanted to know more specifically about how I arrived at my feeling/question, I'd suspect you would ask.
Instead you 795.

And yes, I think your bussing. The sum total of your scumhunting pre-Rogers is "Luca is scum?"
Why Luca over all of the other lurkers?
Hmmmmmm.
His lurking is scummier?
Hmmmmmm.
His avatar displeases you?
Hmmmmmm.
He's probably scum and talah is bussing so she earns towncred for his scumflip because she sure as hell ain't getting any for appearing to scumhunt.
BINGO!!

And I've lost patience before. But not as much lately, since I'm more experienced with how each person plays. if Fire Emblem was the babymaking game, then we were pretty far ahead so it didn't bug me.

And i'm not losing patience now. Sad that Rogers left, glad Snork is still here, and sad you got a scum role.

[PeregrineV]

#Yates- I saw you say something, but I'll be back later.

[Yates]

how likely do ya all think it is that we have one large scum team or two scum teams and how likely do you think it is we have a SK?

We have 20 players.

This isn't even worth entertaining until tomorrow at the earliest.

Quick drop in

Response to post 1390 when you get a chance, please? TYIA

VOTE: APTIL

I think you should put Luca at L-1 and advance the game if you expect anyone to listen to you.

What makes you think this is in anyway relevant to Luca's alignment?

Shhh... I'm trying to scum hunt here.

Yates also asked you about this and don't really remember you responding to it

For reference:

I want to know if other people see it or if I'm just seeing things that aren't there

Are you suggesting that he defends and/or ignores Talah throughout his ISO?

If so, why aren't you equally concerned about Pere's chainsaw post?

PE:

[Luca's] probably scum and talah is bussing so she earns towncred for his scumflip

So if you think this and ThAd won't do it, why not put Luca at L-1? Don't you need a Luca flip anyway to prove this theory?

#Yates- I saw you say something, but I'll be back later.

Grazi.

[PeregrineV]

I want to know if other people see it or if I'm just seeing things that aren't there

Are you suggesting that he defends and/or ignores Talah throughout his ISO?

If so, why aren't you equally concerned about Pere's chainsaw post?

I'm not going to defend Nero - since he is more than capable of defending himself - but I can tell you why *I* switched to Luca. Pere calling out people for consolidating at the end of the day is... not great. Pere pretending like Luca's posts since coming out of hiding haven't read as scum is... even less great. Given the choice between talah and Luca? I'm lynching Luca every day and twice on Sundays.

@Pere - and what do you think of the people that switched to the Talah wagon recently? SnowStorm, Aptil, yourself - you've all voted Talah since page 48. In fact - YOU are the one that made talah a leading wagon based on no new information, aren't you? I say this because post 1178 is your talah vote and it appears to be meta based. Are you trying to say that talah's meta - which was brought up EARLY btw - was suddenly strong/convincing enough to get you to abandon your case on Mastin? See how this works? Equally effective for either wagon.

I can go into more detail later, but yes, Rogers articulated a lot more clearly, but that was the exact reason. And giving up a Mastin wagon that no one believes is not hard. We can always lynch him tomorrow.

And what happened once Talah was made the leading wagon?
Did Luca gain 4 votes in a row?
Yes.
And all I did was bring it up. Wait into I look into the reasons why.

[Snork]

Fucking hell Talah...

UNVOTE:

These are the current

off-wagon voters

, and there's at least one scum here:
DG (1): mastin2
Mastin (1): BP
Aptil (1): ThAd
Yates (1): pk
BP (1): Luca

{mastin, BP, ThAd, PK, Luca}

Other than mastin, those are all good possibilities.

--

Main wagons:

Luca (9): 4nx, pmatt, DG, Nero, DV, RM, Yates, Zd, talah

L-2

Talah (5): AP, pa, PV, Snow, aptil

--

I had originally split this up into "If Talah Town" and "If Luca Town", but realized the results are the same. At least one on each wagon should be scum.

- [TALAH WAGON] One of {me, AP, pa, PV, Snow, aptil} should be scum, at least. Of these, the only two I see as possibilities are PV and aptil.
* If town, either. If scum, I think aptil more likely to be bussing.

- [LUCA WAGON] One of {4nx, pmatt, DG, Nero, DV, RM, Yates, Zd, Talah} should be scum, at least. Of these, I would guess RM, maybe Nero, maybe DV. (Ignoring talah's presence here for purposes of analysis)
*If town, any of those would work. If scum, I'd say RM is the busser.

--

Suspicions aside, the biggest problem I have with the wagons is the fact that most of the people on the Luca wagon I do not have town reads on, or the town reads are extremely weak; whereas on the Talah wagon, when it was larger, had strong town reads on it.

(Note to self - go get that VC)

I need to time to go over this and reevaluate some things. And I really want to hear from pa at the very least before the day ends.

-- Also, ThAd trying to split the votes with his aptil "epiphany"...

[Luca Blight]

I am also a VT, which explains my relaxed attitude to the possibility of being lynched - I accept at this point I probably would be an informative lynch to some extent.

[PeregrineV]

So if you think this and ThAd won't do it, why not put Luca at L-1? Don't you need a Luca flip anyway to prove this theory?

There is time to analyze each wagon.

And I think that if talah is scum, and Luca is scum, that the scumteam would rather save talah than Luca.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement, and why?

[PeregrineV]

At least one on each [Luca,talah} wagon should be scum.

Going to have to disagree with this.

If talah is town, then why are scum so hot to lynch Luca instead?

[Luca Blight]

If me and Talah were a scumteam I would have tried to blend into the town a lot more, so there would never have been a me v Talah situation in the first place. Personally I'm not certain Talah is scum, but I think there is a decent chance of it and it wouldn't overly surprise me if he flipped scum. As my Bipolar wagon has no legs I might as well

Unvote

Vote: Talah

This isn't an attempt to save myself, it's just that we're both claiming VT, and while I know I'm a VT I can't be sure of him, but either way it will make for an informative lynch I'm sure, without risking lynching a PR!

[Snork]

At least one on each [Luca,talah} wagon should be scum.

Going to have to disagree with this.

If talah is town, then why are scum so hot to lynch Luca instead?

Yep. You see my problem with the Luca wagon.

[PeregrineV]

Keep clutching those straws, mate!

Nice contribution there. Tell me why you're not scum. Tell me who is and why, with more concrete reasoning than "[ever] so slightly dodgy" opening posts. Ideally quote or link to incriminating posts and give decent reasons.

I am town because I recieved a role PM telling me so. When I find out who is scum, you will be the first to know

Not even a survival vote on the opposing wagon huh? I'll have to go check your ISO, but you think talah is more town than you?

If me and Talah were a scumteam I would have tried to blend into the town a lot more, so there would never have been a me v Talah situation in the first place. Personally I'm not certain Talah is scum, but I think there is a decent chance of it and it wouldn't overly surprise me if he flipped scum. As my Bipolar wagon has no legs I might as well

Unvote

Vote: Talah

This isn't an attempt to save myself, it's just that we're both claiming VT, and while I know I'm a VT I can't be sure of him, but either way it will make for an informative lynch I'm sure, without risking lynching a PR!

[PeregrineV]

Suspicions aside, the biggest problem I have with the wagons is the fact that most of the people on the Luca wagon I do not have town reads on, or the town reads are extremely weak; whereas on the Talah wagon, when it was larger, had strong town reads on it.

Missed this the first time, but, yes, exactly.

[Damon_Gant]

Sorry I haven't said much the past couple of days. I have been paying very close attention, and I have a number of things to say, but I don't think it's particularly prudent and certainly not necessary to do so before we get a flip. I don't think analysis of Luca's wagon is particularly informative without knowing Luca's alignment. My vote will remain where it is - Luca's claim and subsequent post are my favourite posts of his thus far, but I still fancy Luca as scum more than talah.

Also, ThAd's vote on aptil is at best, really odd. I didn't like that.

[Damon_Gant]

Addendum: I should note that I will move my vote if it becomes necessary, but I'm much happier on Luca than talah.

[Yates]

What makes you think this is in anyway relevant to Luca's alignment?

Absolutely nothing. Of the two leading wagons I felt like talah was townier or at least more useful. So really I was just pressuring for this...

I am also a VT

I don't know how convincing it is given all the Town cred given to Chemist when he claimed VT but at least we have a claim out of a distracting slot.

And giving up a

pisskop

wagon that no one believes is not hard.

Edited for my thoughts. ^^^

I was actually assuming your talah vote was also a pressure vote so I didn't understand why you were staying on talah when you had the opportunity to put Luca at L-1.

And I think that if talah is scum, and Luca is scum, that the scumteam would rather save talah than Luca.

I'm assuming you are basing this off the wagon momentum? Possible. But that would only be if both were scum. If this is the case, your "chainsaw" post makes sense for looking for the busser.

[PeregrineV]

What makes you think this is in anyway relevant to Luca's alignment?

Absolutely nothing. Of the two leading wagons I felt like talah was townier or at least more useful. So really I was just pressuring for this...

I am also a VT

I don't know how convincing it is given all the Town cred given to Chemist when he claimed VT but at least we have a claim out of a distracting slot.

And giving up a

pisskop

wagon that no one believes is not hard.

Edited for my thoughts. ^^^

I was actually assuming your talah vote was also a pressure vote so I didn't understand why you were staying on talah when you had the opportunity to put Luca at L-1.

And I think that if talah is scum, and Luca is scum, that the scumteam would rather save talah than Luca.

I'm assuming you are basing this off the wagon momentum? Possible. But that would only be if both were scum. If this is the case, your "chainsaw" post makes sense for looking for the busser.

pisskop wagon was 3. Mastin was me. And the leaving pisskop was less important (maybe interesting later) than the quick migrations to Luca, reducing the chances of a talah lynch.

If talah is town, then why are scum so hot to lynch Luca instead?

If Luca is town and talah is scum, his wagon makes more sense. In which case, there doesn't have to be bussing involved.