Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[RadiantCowbells]

Pagetop

[the worst]

but reworded answer

yes Anka has her own methods and will do her own thing and think creatively rather than be "conventional" as town. even if it's totally grating to some people. but no she's defs not bad

[the worst]

Shoshin engage with me here that was later in the game. I'm just giving you an example

[Shoshin]

Reality, the questions I asked you about your case weren't just rhetorical - if you still think your case has any merit, I'd like you to answer them.

[the worst]

if you're town your issues with Anka are prolly playstyle related

[Reality Check]

That game, I INSTANTLY had a strong, accurate bead on the game that was reinforced as the game went on. It was strongly confident.

Here, I don't have the instant strong bead, this is more of a "confident if shown correct initially, otherwise not" game

[Shoshin]

yes Anka has her own methods and will do her own thing and think creatively rather than be "conventional" as town. even if it's totally grating to some people. but no she's defs not bad

You think her case on me is creative town? Have you read it?

[the worst]

also regardless of alignment you ask some pretty weird questions and get really fussy about them. I'm gonna keep scumreading you for that

pedit: yup

[the worst]

your reaction to it is slightly town telling imo but easier to fake than what Anka has contributed so

I'll be keen to see Anka's onion here but I vibe TvT

[Shoshin]

if you're town your issues with Anka are prolly playstyle related

I think if she answers my questions about her case in a way that show some sort of thought process then okay, but I don't see any sort of thought process underlying the case.

When someone doesn't have a thought process, it usually means they're scum. Usually.

[the worst]

how do you read me Shosh?

[Reality Check]

I'll get to it later

the thing is I'm kind of hesitant to respond to it because a page full of quote walls is one of the least fun things I've ever seen in mafia (HI 2011 META)

[the worst]

^ why I refuse to wall post

[Shoshin]

also regardless of alignment you ask some pretty weird questions and get really fussy about them. I'm gonna keep scumreading you for that

Most of the questions I ask have a pretty clear purpose - sometimes they don't, and in those cases it's usually a reaction test to see if a player ignores it, because I think town tend to ignore silly questions more than scum - but when the questions are meaningful, I expect answers.

I think most of the players in this game underestimate my town game because they haven't played with me before - my questions might not make sense to you because a lot of the time they're designed to create challenges for scum.

[Shoshin]

how do you read me Shosh?

I'll reconsider you after Creature flips.

Why'd you read Sajj as town earlier in the game when I asked you about it, and why'd you make such a big deal about not explaining the townread?

[Reality Check]

you're going to get a lot of false positives from me if you read me by how often I'm ignoring your questions

[the worst]

all due respect but your questions present as very easy to make up answers to. the trajectory of them is kinda hit and miss and they don't seem to demand very nuanced answers. this is a big part of why my initial take on you was lolscum busywork

pedit: this post answers that

[Shoshin]

I'll get to it later

the thing is I'm kind of hesitant to respond to it because a page full of quote walls is one of the least fun things I've ever seen in mafia (HI 2011 META)

You don't need to quote anything - type up the answers in separate paragraphs and I'll follow it.

[the worst]

I only made a big deal about not explaining that read because you kept fucking asking about why I wasn't answering you and then vanity voteparked me for NAI reasons

[Shoshin]

all due respect but your questions present as very easy to make up answers to. the trajectory of them is kinda hit and miss and they don't seem to demand very nuanced answers. this is a big part of why my initial take on you was lolscum busywork

Questions don't need to demand nuanced answers to get some really meaningful information. Like, earlier in the game when I asked joral to vote Reality with me, it seems like a pretty dumb question but actually I was carefully checking joral's response to it.

[the worst]

that was one of your high points

[Nancy Drew 39]

It's the same thing with the worst. I try interacting with the worst but he refuses to answer any of my questions or discuss the things I want to discuss with him - how am I supposed to react to that?

Let it go? Town should but won't always works together, you can't force people to play like you'd want them to. No answer is also an answer, thought I don't think that's a good strategy.
I think you have only asked him about the townread and some explanation about you. i have tired to solve the former for you but you abandoned the idea.

I tell him that it's making me paranoid about his alignment and ask him kindly to interact with me so that he can help me townread him and we can work on refining reads - he continues to ignore me. I'm doing my best not to let my paranoia get the best of me but when I'm confronted with a choice between suspecting perpetual lurkers or the guy who posts more than anyone else but doens't seem to actually be saying much plus can't even spend a second to explain one of his reads to me or to engage with me about the game, what am I supposed to do? I scumread that player because I find what he's doing pro-scum in effect.

yeah what you talk about is perhaps antitown. but you can keep lurkers and hm in his poe. like i'm not really sure what do you expect me here to say to you. i see you are trying to talk with other people about him and i think that's the way to go.

I didn't abandon the idea of speaking with the worst - I made a post directed at him about you based on what you said and he didn't reply. You think I need to be more specific? I want to know why he townread you back in the earlier part of the game when I scumread you - and I want to know what he thinks of your play since then. I can't get more specific than that. He's the one who townread you...

In terms of his play, the problem is that I've seen scum do what he's doing a lot - they throw out a townread on someone who is actually town without thinking about why the player is town, then when they get questioned about it they have no clue how to respond so they ignore the question hoping it goes away without ever having to answer.

Look at the worst Creature progression. He started out defending Creature and trying to get votes off of him. As Creature revealed to be less and less likely to be town, the worst shifted and seriously began to question his initial read. It is beyond obvious that the worst has been really struggling with Creature’s alignment and even as recently as yesterday - after strongly pushing his wagon - the worst was practically begging Creature to throw him some bone of towniness which he wouldn’t be oblige. If this isn’t the most villagery-based push in the history of Mafia, I don’t know what is.

Really good tell - No matter how strongly villas push on players unless they are horribad town, they are almost always open to reconsiderng ther reads - both scum and town - based on new information and the current gamestate. This is why Angel’s post is so suspect. Their hard defending Creature at this point in the game egregiously contradicts the Creature whisperer’s logical, well-reasoned push on him. The just sheep them - no questions - push on Nico is equally scummy.

[Shoshin]

I only made a big deal about not explaining that read because you kept fucking asking about why I wasn't answering you and then vanity voteparked me for NAI reasons

And you think this is pro-town? Like, assume I'm town for a moment. I'm trying to read both you and Sajj better. And you're just making me paranoid about you while also making it harder for me to read Sajj... for some giggles? Or what? The vote wasn't "vanity," it was legitamitely because I felt like you were playing pro-scum. And your reasons for doing it certainly don't evidence any sort of pro-town intent...

[Shoshin]

that was one of your high points

I thought so. Really pushed the game forward.

[Shoshin]

It's the same thing with the worst. I try interacting with the worst but he refuses to answer any of my questions or discuss the things I want to discuss with him - how am I supposed to react to that?

Let it go? Town should but won't always works together, you can't force people to play like you'd want them to. No answer is also an answer, thought I don't think that's a good strategy.
I think you have only asked him about the townread and some explanation about you. i have tired to solve the former for you but you abandoned the idea.

I tell him that it's making me paranoid about his alignment and ask him kindly to interact with me so that he can help me townread him and we can work on refining reads - he continues to ignore me. I'm doing my best not to let my paranoia get the best of me but when I'm confronted with a choice between suspecting perpetual lurkers or the guy who posts more than anyone else but doens't seem to actually be saying much plus can't even spend a second to explain one of his reads to me or to engage with me about the game, what am I supposed to do? I scumread that player because I find what he's doing pro-scum in effect.

yeah what you talk about is perhaps antitown. but you can keep lurkers and hm in his poe. like i'm not really sure what do you expect me here to say to you. i see you are trying to talk with other people about him and i think that's the way to go.

I didn't abandon the idea of speaking with the worst - I made a post directed at him about you based on what you said and he didn't reply. You think I need to be more specific? I want to know why he townread you back in the earlier part of the game when I scumread you - and I want to know what he thinks of your play since then. I can't get more specific than that. He's the one who townread you...

In terms of his play, the problem is that I've seen scum do what he's doing a lot - they throw out a townread on someone who is actually town without thinking about why the player is town, then when they get questioned about it they have no clue how to respond so they ignore the question hoping it goes away without ever having to answer.

Look at the worst Creature progression. He started out defending Creature and trying to get votes off of him. As Creature revealed to be less and less likely to be town, the worst shifted and seriously began to question his initial read. It is beyond obvious that the worst has been really struggling with Creature’s alignment and even as recently as yesterday - after strongly pushing his wagon - the worst was practically begging Creature to throw him some bone of towniness which he wouldn’t be oblige. If this isn’t the most villagery-based push in the history of Mafia, I don’t know what is.

Really good tell - No matter how strongly villas push on players unless they are horribad town, they are almost always open to reconsiderng ther reads - both scum and town - based on new information and the current gamestate. This is why Angel’s post is so suspect. Their hard defending Creature at this point in the game egregiously contradicts the Creature whisperer’s logical, well-reasoned push on him. The just sheep them - no questions - push on Nico is equally scummy.

That's a good point about the worst wanting to townread Creature and struggling with his obvious scumminess.