Mini 2059: Secrets of the Anuket Topaz [Over]

[Ankamius]

iirc it was mostly tone

I haven't played with it very much but I am pretty well aware of its general reputation for being blatantly obvtown as town and I haven't seen it yet.

[Flubbernugget]

I am going to have to find time to read interactions again, but not wanting to engage someone that consistently acts like an insufferable jackass isn't AI, even if it's not pro-town

[Enter]

I don't understand how this is at all relevant to my point that I'm more concerned with HOW people get their reads on me than what their reads are.

You can say all you want about my self meta this game, but I've been using it to try to dismantle townreads as well as scumreads this game.

Most of the playerlist is pretty unfamiliar with how I play and this very often results in people reading me for bizarre reasons. I like to nip the very incorrect ones in the bud because people using more correct metrics to read me means that it's a lot less likely for people to randomly switch to a scumread of me out of nowhere when I need to get a specific lynch just because I "feel like I have an agenda" or other such nonsense.

I play town like most people do scum
And I play scum like most people do town

And my playstyle completely revolves around having enough influence when I really need it to create a decisive victory, so I need to be damn sure I can get people to townread me for the right reasons or I'll have a much harder time doing that when I need to.

If this works for you and stops you from getting mislynched, fine.
It doesn't help me at all, and I would view skeptically other players who take it with more than a grain of salt. It is so easy to poorly communicate your playstyle or misinterpret someone else's meaning with it. In addition to this, we have to trust that you're not lying, intentionally trying to skew our views, going to use selection bias (where you talk about a specific game that is actually an outlier), and self-aware enough to actually understand how you play. The fact that you've been dismantling both (as you say) is NAI at best.

[Brigitte]

Ank made 3 self meta arguments in the last page.

Do I need to make a counter for this? It feels like this is getting ridiculous.

[Brigitte]

Correction: She made 4 self meta arguments in the last page.

I am really considering going through the ISO and making a counter for this.

[Ankamius]

Go ahead and show me what my plan for how I've played this game is that makes it more appealing than what you're suggesting I'm doing!

[Ankamius]

Than what I suggested instead*

[Brigitte]

I don't even know what you are trying to say right now.

Maybe rephrase it into a self meta about how you don't always make sense as either alignment?

[Ankamius]

I gave a lot of scenarios that is both easier to pull off and more reliably able to give results than what people are suggesting my scum agenda is

Why am I doing what you're suggesting I'm doing rather than the easier and more reliable strategies I've suggested

It's a lot more productive than writing me off

[Brigitte]

Wait do you not get what posts are the self meta. Not the posts that are about what your hypothetical scum agenda is.

[Brigitte]

You know we always have these separate conversations where I am constantly going. What are we talking about because you are talking about something I am not talking about and you don't make it very clear what you are talking about.

I don't think I am being very vague here.

I really don't think scum you would be doing this specific action on purpose?

[Ankamius]

You know we always have these separate conversations where I am constantly going. What are we talking about because you are talking about something I am not talking about and you don't make it very clear what you are talking about.

I don't think I am being very vague here.

I really don't think scum you would be doing this specific action on purpose?

The self meta doesn't matter.

I've addressed everything thrown at me so far and currently I'm seeing no rebuttal to any of it other than "self meta :(((((("

[Brigitte]

Your communication skills need work here.

[Enter]

The big glaring flaw is that it makes no sense to push a scum partner like I was when they are already in a good spot. If I wanted towncred from distancing, it makes a lot more sense to push on Nimueh when the "KILL ALL LURKERS" mentality was at its highest, and rely on how the gamestate formed to allow that wagon to dissipate naturally later on.

Or... I don't really need to distance in the first place, I just need to be townread enough to make it far enough in the game where I can eliminate everybody who is likely to catch me and then coast to endgame. That's an even simpler way to play scum in this game since I'd already have the advantage of having so many people unfamiliar with how I play in this game.

Both of the actions here help you perform your purpose, neither is counter-productive here. This part of it isn't a reach at all.

[Ankamius]

Fine, then let's start with this.

What do you think of Enters case on me.

[Brigitte]

Because as I said, she wins more points in her favor by doing so which is doing with you. You might think its real, but I don't its real. I haven't found a lot of her stances and posts genuine here.

Why would I need to get more favor now that I have support from the people that were scumreading me rather than when everybody was scumreading me?

It's nonsensical for me to spend so much time provoking people who are already scumreading me and not trying to turn those reads around until the pressure at least somewhat gets off of me, and then later put on the pocketing act when I'm getting the wagon I've been pushing for half the game.

It doesn't fit as a consistent scum thought process.

I guess I should start by responding to this since Ank thinks she made solid arguments.

Yeah, I made that argument because at the time you had lukewarm support at best. Not now where you have more. I think you are fairly aware of this because you are very aware of the overall landscape of the game. So not sure how you make this argument without either A) Over-embellishing the support you had within the dominion of my argument, B) misunderstand/misrep what I was specifically talking about.

[Enter]

You know I'm reaching out to town-you and giving scum-you an out, right?

If we're talking players who always take the optimal path (which it would be even debatable that distancing Nimueh is the optimal path in that scenario), can we agree that the optimal path for Brig here, as scum trying to avoid a lynch, is to drop it and come back like you're pretending to let her do here?

[Brigitte]

As far as I'm following, Brigitte's argument is that Ank's scumread of her feels like OMGUS and completely manufactured because it's just the same thing Brigitte said back at her.

Do you genuinely think I felt threatened by her?

She hasn't successfully spearheaded a push on me so far, a lot of the support she had on me had either evaporated or greatly diminished by then, and her level of towncred isn't enough to charisma her way towards lynching me in the first place.

What exactly am I supposed to be afraid of enough to OMGUS?

This is a good example of you being aware of the landscape of the current game.

[Enter]

Fine, then let's start with this.

What do you think of Enters case on me.

Enter hasn't even begun to build a case on you, but don't worry, it's coming.

And I'll do my best this time to use words that aren't easy to be misunderstood or twisted like you've done.

[Ankamius]

Because as I said, she wins more points in her favor by doing so which is doing with you. You might think its real, but I don't its real. I haven't found a lot of her stances and posts genuine here.

Why would I need to get more favor now that I have support from the people that were scumreading me rather than when everybody was scumreading me?

It's nonsensical for me to spend so much time provoking people who are already scumreading me and not trying to turn those reads around until the pressure at least somewhat gets off of me, and then later put on the pocketing act when I'm getting the wagon I've been pushing for half the game.

It doesn't fit as a consistent scum thought process.

I guess I should start by responding to this since Ank thinks she made solid arguments.

Yeah, I made that argument because at the time you had lukewarm support at best. Not now where you have more. I think you are fairly aware of this because you are very aware of the overall landscape of the game. So not sure how you make this argument without either A) Over-embellishing the support you had within the dominion of my argument, B) misunderstand/misrep what I was specifically talking about.

The hardest part is always the beginning. Support is easy to grow compared to how difficult it is to start from.

[Brigitte]

The hardest part is always the beginning. Support is easy to grow compared to how difficult it is to start from

And I said you were doing things to gain support. So you disagree your actions were impactful or done with intention to gain support.

[Ankamius]

The hardest part is always the beginning. Support is easy to grow compared to how difficult it is to start from

And I said you were doing things to gain support. So you disagree your actions were impactful or done with intention to gain support.

My original point was that it doesn't make sense for me to specifically get that support when I did instead of when I was originally getting scumreads?

Regarding support, well yeah I'd like support, how exactly am I going to lynch my scumreads without it.

[Ankamius]

Fine, then let's start with this.

What do you think of Enters case on me.

Enter hasn't even begun to build a case on you, but don't worry, it's coming.

And I'll do my best this time to use words that aren't easy to be misunderstood or twisted like you've done.

I look forward to it!!!

[Enter]

i'm kinda skimming nimueh's posts and gun-to-head i think she's kinda scummy but i don't know if that's because i'm carrying a lot of animus from how she behaved in the last game i played with her; i would not have joined this game if i had known who her main was

i'm kinda like actively not trying to engage her so i'm trying to decide if i should just replace out here because trying to not sort her is obviously counterproductive

==

Is she regularly this bad? I already had one headache trying to deal with her, I assumed she was just having a bad day. If this is consistent I don't know that I can really handle it.

i kinda think ank is town now actually
she comes off a lot better than brigitte does in both of their recent exchanges

Explain. I'd argue she comes off more controlled, but pretty sure that's more scummy than townie, IMO.

i don't know - it kinda felt like she was approaching her convos with brigitte with a goal (first convo refuting brigitte's scumread, seconc convo getting another opinion on brigitte and then trying to gague if scum!brigitte would back down under pressure), whereas brgitte felt a lot more like she was flailing when ank pushed her and like she didn't know how to respond ank; it felt less like she was approaching the exchange with a consistent thought process that guided her posts/pushes/responses, but rather that she just said the first thing that popped into her head when she was met with resistance by me/urap2/ank/reck - discrediting reck by saying he wasn't reading the game.

like the convo last night wrt ank and then reck: she started off with objecting to ank asking reck how he was reading brigitte/brigitte's case on reck because reck had been scumreading her all game so he's obviously biased. once i pointed out that wasn't true (ie his scumread on her had developed in the last 20 pages or so), and that scumreading someone dones't mean they can't objectively look at a post, brigitte's posting shifted to discrediting reck in general on the basis that he isn't reading the game, which is kinda obviously not true. and i kinda disliked that she was using that as an excuse to not engage with reck at all; it kinda felt like that once reck started siding with ank her next goal was to try to discredit him - like she went from objecting to ank asking reck how he was reading brigitte to discrediting reck and i don't follow that as a townie thought process really, but it kinda makes sense to me as a response by scum to getting pushed and getting backed into a corner

i do think that ank (in middle of that convo with brigitte) saying that she thought scum!brigitte would have dropped the push and then unvoting was townie because i think that scum!her would continue pushing brigitte there while she had momentum to try to score a mislynch; a couple of ank's posts at that juncture seem like she was rethinking her brigitte read in real-time, in response to brigitte's reaction to her

idk i hope i explained that well enough
==

Alright, this is a pretty different view from the one I had last night, and I think I understand a bit better where you're coming from now, regardless of my disagreement.

Just to get this straight, you're saying you think it looked like Ank was legitimately considering her read on Brig by unvoting and offering Brig a way out on multiple occasions, and Brig looked like scum for just responding with whatever emotion happened to be going through her at the moment, right?

Alright. I can see this, but I disagree, so I'll respond with a series of questions:

1. You're scum, and you want to push a mislynch, do you want to push it through hard and look like you're tunneled in, confbiased and emotional, or would you rather look calm, controlled, and regularly offer your victim a way out?
2. You're town, you run into an argument that you can't handle at the moment, do you tell the person you're arguing with to leave, or do you just leave the thread yourself until things have cooled down?

Really not sure what you mean by Ank reconsidering her read in real time, but I'll assume you're talking about these?

Spoiler:

You know I'm reaching out to town-you and giving scum-you an out, right?

UNVOTE: Brigitte

I might read stuff tomorrow idk yet

I'd argue that barely reads as reconsidering read and more like damage control, because when you get in a 1v1, player respect for your case goes down and people are a lot less likely to get lynched, like urap2 pointed out yesterday. This argument is reinforced by these posts:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Brigitte

Good talk

Time for attempt #2

They both imply that she's just trying again and again to get Brig lynched, not trying to sort her.

The other thing that makes it pretty clear to me that Ank isn't REALLY trying to sort Brig is this post:

What do you think of Brigittes case reck

Which, by itself, looks like an innocent attempt to fix your read on a player, except she chose Reck (who had already been scumreading Brig), and when putting that in context with the last two posts I linked, makes it look like she's just trying to get people to join the lynch with her, especially when she leaves once it picks up momentum. A great thing you can do is scum is to ever so slightly doubt or oppose the wagon picking up momentum so that you get the towncred for opposing/doubting the lynch even if you're on the wagon when it goes through.

[Brigitte]

The hardest part is always the beginning. Support is easy to grow compared to how difficult it is to start from

And I said you were doing things to gain support. So you disagree your actions were impactful or done with intention to gain support.

My original point was that it doesn't make sense for me to specifically get that support when I did instead of when I was originally getting scumreads?

Regarding support, well yeah I'd like support, how exactly am I going to lynch my scumreads without it.

Because you didn't have the opportunity to do it?

Like that was a golden opportunity during those pages and I don't believe you don't see it that way.

because we both have the same sense of general atmosphere of the game. I don't believe you think you could have done it earlier given that their was no clear opportunity.