In post 1444, Servant Ruler wrote:On top of everything else, everything strongly points to Saber being truthful and all the push on saber is largely due to playstyle difference and i wouldnt be surprised if there was a bad faith argument being made in sabers direction
I thought saber was more null before the gladiate and I dont understand how they suddenly moved to hard scum by multiple people due to it.
I would say that that is simply not the reality of the situation wrt Saber. Saber was very nearly our first elim, so much so that OG Berserker indicated that that was his number 1 choice
I feel like the issue is that we are pretty split amongst the two -- and need you to help us consolidate
In post 1071, Servant Berserker wrote:Saber. I think that flip will provide tons of information even if wrong. But it’s mind boggling to me to view that play from town.
To be fair, Berserker appeared to soften on that push after the full claim from saber, but it is inaccurate to act like he was null before the gladiate
Who do you think is making the bad faith argument?
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:40 pm
by Servant Lancer
In post 262, Servant Lancer wrote:@Ruler first you say archer is towny and then that if your main-guess is correct that this is actually their scum meta? That feels contradictory
In post 265, Servant Lancer wrote:@Ruler you also say that your read on Saber is neither pure nor corrupt but then down below you separate them out of your nullpile into the possibly corrupt pile. What differentiates Saber’s slot from the nullpile such that you say they’re possibly corrupt, given that you said you have no read on them either way?
In post 272, Servant Lancer wrote:@Ruler thanks for clarifying. Can you explain why you put Beast on the same tier as me/archer/berserker? Any thoughts on their posts other than 88?
oh yeah I forgot I put ruler as one of my preferred eliminations during the master selection phase. mostly because I thought it was mastina hard-defending scum and thought it would be a distraction to town. I've put your slot as probtown for every one of my readslist since then though. and I led the wagon back onto moon cancer who like, flipped scum. so I'm hard-pressed to understand why you're treating me like you think I'm scum here.
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:41 pm
by Servant Lancer
who's calling saber hardscum due to the gladiate? I don't think anyone is. if they're scumreading him it's due to other, unrelated factors.
awk I did not mean to put those quotes there.
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:57 pm
by Servant Lancer
just gonna say... I think this conversation did more to make me scumread Ruler than anything else this game. weird focus on me/alter who I think are two of the towniest slots in the game, for pushing avenger who clearly made either a scum-motivated or suboptimal play. no comment on any of the numerous other slots who had a way scummier reaction to the gladiate; no comment on the moon cancer wagon which alter and I were both pushing pretty hard.
In post 1436, Servant Archer wrote:855 - covers the entire player base, does have moon as "Not a huge fan here." But, because it is in the middle of a reads list, it is not actually pushing moon
912 - Empty vote, votes Moon Cancer
That feels a little bit of an unfair assessment? Just because the evaluation came "in the middle of a reads list" does not make it any less correct. The naked vote also goes entirely in conjunction with the read - sure, he
could
have voted elsewhere based on his previous stances, but he
didn't
. (He also had 492 early, although that is admittedly a very slight point about the oddness of Moon scumreading me but voting with me, I give credit for them actually bothering to call it out). If they were not the most vocal or aggressive pusher of Moon Cancer, I still like them significantly better than those who were trying not to call attention to Moon Cancer at all.
My point was that Rider called several people scummy in that post, and I did not read it as leading a push towards Moon Cancer (I would even say that some of the other cases presented were stronger and more thought out --
I also don't think it makes sense to link their empty vote, to that long read list. It came 57 posts later....
Again, I do not think that they look bad, I just don't think they look overly good. Like, they had moon in their scum pile, but generally had other people listed as scummier from what I can see.
However, Alter, you avoided my question: what makes you think that they look "really, really good" as you put it.
If they had other people listed as scummier, they didn't vote them, like I said. (I also don't think 57 posts later is that big of a deal). Let me explain: I reviewed the interactions of almost everyone with regard to Moon Cancer and Rider looked like one of the most favorable giving the timing of when they went after MC. Other people were hedgy and/or only pushed MC late, Rider was pretty unambiguously "this is scummy, I'm voting it" and never really backed down on that read at all. I give them the most credit behind Lancer of the voters on the Moon wagon.
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:16 pm
by Servant Alter Ego
I hope that makes sense, I can feel the nyquil kicking in and I'm about to pass out so I may not be the most coherent.
our lord and savior: Berserker
probtown: Alter/Archer/Caster
maybe town: Shielder/Rider
null-ish: Foreigner/Assassin
would eliminate: Saber/Avenger/Ruler/Beast/Moon Cancer
This was a post of reference I was speaking if. It came shortly after mastinas wall and her expressing a scum read on you when prior you had our slot as closer to a null read, and its the only null read you expressed interest in getting rid of.
Who do you think is making the bad faith argument?
I've already made it clear who i think it is and i think my issue with alter is a difference in views.
I'm also not a fan of lancers positipn around alter
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:25 pm
by Servant Lancer
because I've seen town!mastina distract the hell out of town by defending scumreads and I had no interest in letting that happen. see: moon cancer elim.
In post 890, Servant Ruler wrote:336 is out of place given that Servant Saber did campaign the way they did and I have good reason to believe it is not a truthful statement
if my guess on their identity is correct.
This is unfortunately a further violation of the rules.
I am force-replacing Mastina, the first controller of Servant Ruler. As this knowledge is now public, it may be discussed, although speculation as to the new owner of the slot, and any other slot's owner, is still explicitly against the rules.
This is the first mention of mastina holding this slot. No one knew who ruler was when you made the reads list id 738
In post 1288, Servant Archer wrote:Do you think that having a gladiate ability is inherently townie? Do you think that the way Avenger used it was particularly townie? Were you town reading them before the gladiate?
Tldr, no i don't think it's particularly townie, i think that as a role itself its Neutral but how it was used is not a scum for scum trade and the scum flip there further
I still don't understand why you were so angry at us for pushing Avenger when the gladiate was in effect? Can you explain that again?
If the moon cancer flip has changed your stance, you can mention that too, but I am specifically asking for you to explain your stance pre-moon cancer flip.
In post 1287, Servant Ruler wrote:Excuse me for my language but my lord and savior wouldnt approve of my rage.
At least one between lancer/alter is scum for their hard push against avenger.
Thats a horrible trade off but I dont see two scum going to bat for their buddy in this manner
And, why did you hone in on Lancer/Alter, as opposed to the several other people, incuding me and including Saber, who all pushed back similarly to the way Lancer and Saber reacted
I don't think you answered this one either
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:35 pm
by Servant Caster
In post 1440, Servant Alter Ego wrote:I loved Caster's energy in the first phase, where she seemed truly committed to her read of Berserker, even if it was wrong. Here's everything she's done since then:
In post 794, Servant Berserker wrote:There's a 0% chance scum don't have tons of fun toys. It's why we crush them with day play.
This line is so hot
Please let me be your sword.
Your enemies are my enemies from this day till the last day.
I just want you to carry me because I'm silly and stupid and you're better than I deserve <3
In post 838, Servant Caster wrote:I should probably be responsible and read and figure things out but I'm just sooo
I don't even know how to describe this emotion.
I want to flirt and dance and sing and be happy.
I'll probably sit down and actually try to put some coherent words together.
just let me be happy for this weekend
<3
In post 1015, Servant Caster wrote:It almost feels like Saber is trying to get townread by claiming a really useless and anti-town NP, I can't really understand how anyone would think this type of NP is strong?
If a TvT got toxic/heated we could just tell the two players to take a 24 hour break? Why would we even use an NP it's just kind of crazy.
In post 1075, Servant Caster wrote:I have a lot of stupid paranoid thoughts in my head and I kind of just want to shut up and follow your lead and hope we kill the bad people because I think you have a better grasp on this game than I do.
The game feels too easy right now and I just kind of hope it really is that easy and it probably just is?
In post 1077, Servant Caster wrote:like if you want my full thoughts on Saber I can write them up but I don't want to confuse the issue anymore.
If you think executing Saber for D1 is the best choice I am more than happy to follow your lead.
In post 1078, Servant Alter Ego wrote:What are your thoughts on Moon Cancer? You don't seem to have spoken about them at all.
They have eleven posts and none of them are very good?
Just skimming over its ISO it looks pretty bleh and not very involved in the game.
Could be lazy scum, could be lazy town. I don't like how it doesn't really justify it's reasoning for several votes/comments, transition from berserker is terrible to voting for berserker is absent.
I think it's a fine flip and probably better odds than random to flip scum.
In post 1084, Servant Caster wrote:I have promised my vote to Berserker and I will follow him wherever he goes <3
In post 1085, Servant Caster wrote:Since we have a shared deadline I would like to get the flip done before we are at 4 days so we have proper time to process the flip.
In post 1246, Servant Caster wrote:Words can't describe how sad I am that I won't get to flirt with Notsci.
In post 1350, Servant Lancer wrote:caster: reaction to the gladiate was nonexistent, used notscience's post as basis for vote and avoided saying literally anything else about the gladiate
In post 1397, Servant Foreigner wrote:What is this vote? Caster had no earlier concerns about Moon but jumped in as soon as saw that Moon is going to die.
another lie
if you're town you should really learn how to read posts
In post 1405, Servant Caster wrote:This was my reply to Alter Ego when they questioned me about Moon Cancer. I was very fine with voting the slot and felt it was fairly good odds to flip scum but I had promised my vote to Berserker. I then went to sleep. When I logged on the gladiate was over, Berserker was replaced and instead of reading 8 pages of people yelling at Foreigner I just read what Notty's last post was and it was an OK to vote for the person I thought was pretty susp before I fell went to bed so I voted Moon Cancer.
In post 1078, Servant Alter Ego wrote:What are your thoughts on Moon Cancer? You don't seem to have spoken about them at all.
They have eleven posts and none of them are very good?
Just skimming over its ISO it looks pretty bleh and not very involved in the game.
Could be lazy scum, could be lazy town. I don't like how it doesn't really justify it's reasoning for several votes/comments, transition from berserker is terrible to voting for berserker is absent.
I think it's a fine flip and probably better odds than random to flip scum.
In post 1084, Servant Caster wrote:I have promised my vote to Berserker and I will follow him wherever he goes <3
In post 1085, Servant Caster wrote:Since we have a shared deadline I would like to get the flip done before we are at 4 days so we have proper time to process the flip.
In post 1409, Servant Caster wrote:I must've forgotten what actually happened since I was sleepy when I woke up.
I did vote avenger, that is what notty would've wanted between the two of them.
I think we just keep killing the people who don't seem to care because I think the scum team might be demotivated and barely playing. The MC flip would imply this.
You can pick which ones you would like to go after.
I'm pretty sure I've cared/put more into this game than most playing have.
I've stepped back when I felt it was better for thread health and to let Berserker run things.
If I were scum I wouldn't be playing support. I usually just play mid solo.
This leaves me to ask: Where's the solving? For the most part she was exclusively leaning on notscience until he altslipped. I find it problematic now how her view of the game in the first phase had been mostly narrow but on being proven wrong there was no effort to re-evaluate or broaden her view. She never mentioned Moon Cancer until I asked about them, agreed they were scummy, but opted to lean on notscience and his decision instead. Since then the most we've gotten is a naked readslist.
Her trajectory on Saber has taken a complete reversal since the first phase and I've no real idea why aside from the fact that Saber is a popular scumread now. I also find her read on Rider to be quite lazy, she had him placed at the bottom presumably because he's less active and "doesn't seem to care", but moved him up slightly because of his "effortful" wallpost. This bothers me because I don't think "effort" in and of itself is an indication of towniness, and it makes no effort to comment on the actual
content
of his wall or of any of his posts. For my part I feel as though Rider has been consistently scumhunting with his posts even if his input is sporadic, and he was one of the earliest pushers of Moon Cancer when there was still resistance to that wagon, and I give him credit for that. By contrast, Caster looks like she's barely going through the motions at this point.
VOTE: Caster
I said I was stepping back from the game to let him run things.
I'm not going to try to influence things when I'm obviously off.
You should think about my motivations and my play rather than and whether it makes sense for scum!me to play in such a manner.
(1) Does it make sense for scum me to disappear in the elimination phase when the IC says they hard TR me? Why would I not want to influence him in the wrong direction if I am scum?
(2) Does it make sense for scum me to not fight for being master but instead fight the person who has no real opposition?
I don't deny that I haven't really scum-hunted very much post Berserker flip,
There's something demotivating about spending so much energy on a game and being utterly wrong.
I told you I wanted to just kick off my shoes and be carried. That's still true.
I don't have trouble faking scum-hunting when I'm mafia. It's actually fairly trivial and easy for me to do. I have done everything in this game because I believe it is in the best interests of our town. If you disagree you can feel free to push through this mis-elim, that is fine with me.
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:38 pm
by Servant Ruler
"Avenger has to be scum becaue that is not how I would use a gladiate so thats not how town woild"
Is literallt the entirety of the argument that two of you are making
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:41 pm
by Servant Caster
In post 1442, Servant Lancer wrote:@caster can you give thoughts/reaction to avenger's gladiate now, since you're here?
I think it was stupid and pointless and I can't imagine a scum team would think it's a good idea.
It might be a desperation act from a scumbag?
I don't think gladiates are overtly townie, if anything they are kind of anti-town.
The times I see scum use gladiates, it's usually to claim they get some kind of bonus for winning a gladiate and then they gladiate their partner who was going to be run up anyway for town cred. That's the one time I've seen a scum use a gladiate.
I don't understand why avenger gladiated, it's just somewhat bizarre to me.
It played out the way one would expect it to play out.
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:42 pm
by Servant Lancer
Nope, the argument I was making was "either you're town who has done something really anti-town/arrogant/stupid, or scum" and I'm happy to yeet both.
In post 1136, Servant Lancer wrote:This gladiate is either the most anti-town shit you could have pulled, or just scum.
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:43 pm
by Servant Caster
In post 1453, Servant Lancer wrote:just gonna say... I think this conversation did more to make me scumread Ruler than anything else this game. weird focus on me/alter who I think are two of the towniest slots in the game, for pushing avenger who clearly made either a scum-motivated or suboptimal play. no comment on any of the numerous other slots who had a way scummier reaction to the gladiate; no comment on the moon cancer wagon which alter and I were both pushing pretty hard.
In post 1021, Servant Assassin wrote:The last, and only, specific reason to scumread Alter came from post 238. I don't find it convincing. How has that read matured over time and what specific posts can you point to as to support your conclusions?
That read has not changed. It is fully based on the early posts on Alter Ego having more evasive words in their posts than any normal townie. And no post of Alter Ego after that time has caused me to reconsider.
I think we have gotten everything we could have before the first elimination. We should move on.
^
Do we have thoughts on whether Moon Cancer posts this about Saber!Scum?
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:45 pm
by Servant Ruler
I've got alot of blind spots, probably to many.
I saw several people voting avenger for "bad play" and " sub optimal plat" and nothing on how the gladiate choice was actually scum motivated away from trading 1 for 1 scum which is dumb play
