Newbie 1735 - Banana Split (Game Over!)

[ironstove]

That doctor hat trick save D1, nice work gm.

[Accountant]

iron I wish you had been more cooperative but I appreciate that you started to work with town more near the end of game and your reads were generally sound barring the weird push on gm

Jae and gm gj as usual <3 i knew there was a reason I sheeped you

GL and DDD, nice job fooling me d1 completely to the point I was defending you

Dragonfire, jon, you worked well with the town. Dragonfire did really well avoiding the scumwagon on him.

Copper, you caught DDD early. Good job.

Thanks for modding gif and rach

[GuyInFreezer]

The fun thing is that they almost roleblocked GM N1 and changed it to jon at the last moment.

[Dragonfire]

Haha yes! To be honest I thought GL would probably flip town, his being scum seemed almost too good to be true and I predicted I'd be stuck in LyLo with iron and scum!jon. But I'm glad we pulled it off

No mvp this game, everyone worked together to win

Agreed, although special kudos to copper, calling the scum team on their first posts after replacing in:

Okay guys, scum is DDD and GL, we can wrap this up.

Quote of the game right here.

Night 1:

DDD roleblocks jon_h61.
GL kills JaeReed.
GM protects JaeReed.
Accountant investigates GM (Town).

Good to see I correctly guessed what went on on Night 1, although Accountant and GM, you did a pretty good job of softing the results to make it east for us later.

Dragonfire, jon, you worked well with the town. Dragonfire did really well avoiding the scumwagon on him.

Thanks, although I felt like giving up at some points due to feeling like whatever I said would never convince anyone that I wasn't scum. I've never been lynched as town before on any site playing forum mafia, and I'm glad that's stayed the same!

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

No idea what "really" got me busted, pretty confident my entrance and response to copper's initial "reaction test' would've been the same as if I were town, I'm aggressive, I attack. Maybe just divergent personalities *shrug*. GL seemed to be a little too disconnected from the main strands of the game on D1, and probably should've just hammered Dragon on D1 instead of just saying intent to hammer which allowed iron to pivot, collapse the iron wagon for a copper wagon which was much harder for GL to move over to. Hindsight is of course 20/20 but I think he probably could've defended himself better from a quick hammer there than the pivot to copper's wagon and it would've implicated me a little less I think. After the N1 failure it was really just trying to string together a string of unlikely events into one exceedingly unlikely event. Who knows.

Didn't lie about the lack of enjoyability in the later stages of this game though, there's some players in this game that I don't need to play with ever again if I decide to stick around for more than just this one.

[Dragonfire]

No idea what "really" got me busted, pretty confident my entrance and response to copper's initial "reaction test' would've been the same as if I were town, I'm aggressive, I attack. Maybe just divergent personalities *shrug*. GL seemed to be a little too disconnected from the main strands of the game on D1, and probably should've just hammered Dragon on D1 instead of just saying intent to hammer which allowed iron to pivot, collapse the iron wagon for a copper wagon which was much harder for GL to move over to. Hindsight is of course 20/20 but I think he probably could've defended himself better from a quick hammer there than the pivot to copper's wagon and it would've implicated me a little less I think. After the N1 failure it was really just trying to string together a string of unlikely events into one exceedingly unlikely event. Who knows.

Didn't lie about the lack of enjoyability in the later stages of this game though, there's some players in this game that I don't need to play with ever again if I decide to stick around for more than just this one.

Sorry if I'm one of such players. I admit that I didn't enjoy this game as much as I hoped (especially during the later stages of my argument with you and others) but it was not my intention to personally insult or offend anyone else.

Was the scum-chat a PM or a QT? If it was a QT could we please see have access?

[JaeReed]

iron I wish you had been more cooperative but I appreciate that you started to work with town more near the end of game and your reads were generally sound barring the weird push on gm

Jae and gm gj as usual <3 i knew there was a reason I sheeped you

GL and DDD, nice job fooling me d1 completely to the point I was defending you

Dragonfire, jon, you worked well with the town. Dragonfire did really well avoiding the scumwagon on him.

Copper, you caught DDD early. Good job.

Thanks for modding gif and rach

I could see where Iron's scumread on GM came from but since I was pretty sure she'd doc'ed me during the night there wasn't much I could do.

Thanks for the cop on GM though <3 I was going to always be paranoid even though I thought she was the doc. What were you thinking when you chose her?

RE: the missing on copping someone... That reminds me of poor Sonrio xP who might have saved himself if he claimed his night actions properly lol.

Props to iron for catching scum early, and as always gj copper.

Agreed, although special kudos to copper, calling the scum team on their first posts after replacing in:

Okay guys, scum is DDD and GL, we can wrap this up.

Quote of the game right here.

Actually, he was being facetious there I think? Which upset me to find out because I was right there with him at this post nodding along like "yup I agree" because the votes on me were awful fmpov. Soooo I felt super silly when I found out it was just a reaction test.

Night 1:

DDD roleblocks jon_h61.
GL kills JaeReed.
GM protects JaeReed.
Accountant investigates GM (Town).

Good to see I correctly guessed what went on on Night 1, although Accountant and GM, you did a pretty good job of softing the results to make it east for us later.

I picked up that GM saved me on D2 but didn't realize Accountant was also softing an inno on her til after Accountant's flip. A quick pointer, though. A lot of people liked to spec what was going on there and the best thing to do is to keep quiet in case scum haven't seen it. I'll admit it was nice and obvious for us after the flip but also, sometimes town can come in after the night with a weird read after thinking things through, which can look like a soft to scum as well.

I think the spec on the inno being on GM freaked her out because she was the doc, so she couldn't afford to have her innocence be quite so public. I really think the time for speculation on that sort of stuff is best left to what's normally D3 (that would be D4 in this game due to the doc save + no lynch). GM might be able to better direct here, since this is just theory from me, but basically lylo I think is the best time for that talk, when all things have to be considered and mass claim should happen?

Dragonfire, jon, you worked well with the town. Dragonfire did really well avoiding the scumwagon on him.

Thanks, although I felt like giving up at some points due to feeling like whatever I said would never convince anyone that I wasn't scum. I've never been lynched as town before on any site playing forum mafia, and I'm glad that's stayed the same!

Don't stress it so much. Once you've been mislynched for the first time you'll see it's not the worst thing to happen. That said, I've only been mislynched twice here I think. Once with nearly all the scum in multiball on my D1 wagon, and another time when up against scum!RC tunneling the slot I replaced into.

[JaeReed]

Was the scum-chat a PM or a QT? If it was a QT could we please see have access?

scum chat is generally a PT. As far as I'm aware most mods have a holding period where they don't release it for x amount of time or until all scum members say it's ok, just in case they want to have certain strategies of theirs deleted first or something.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm fine with the PT being released!

Great game town! This was immensely frustrating for me as scum, Jae I hope to never draw scum against you again. I definitely agree with DDD that I should have just hammered Dragon on D1 without giving intent, and it was also a mistake to move the roleblock off of GM and onto jon - I was pretty sure jon was the cop and thought we would benefit more from not having an investigate. Didn't think GM would protect Jae, that was well played by her (although I'm curious, were you PR-reading Jae?)

I thought a lot about placing a bus vote down on DDD on D1 (before copper and Jae switched over), but I was worried they might switch over and that worry proved to be correct when they did it later. And then I thought a lot about hammering DDD instead of copper, but I didn't think I was gonna be able to get through the doc and the cop before investigations (coupled with Jae/copper being essentially conf-town) would have done me in. This was a tough game because town town-blocked extremely well, and the people who stayed off of copper's wagon were going to be hard to mislynch.

Anyway, good job town, the win is well deserved. Hopefully I can be on your team next time

Thanks for modding GIF!

[GuiltyLion]

also I totally would have just bussed DDD if I were the roleblocker and he was goon. Also if Jae/copper/iron had been PRs, it would have been a better move for me as well. Unfortunately the way the wagons got set up at the end of D1 (after the DragonWagon had died) it was nigh impossible for me

[JaeReed]

GL, I can't take credit there. Iron and copper did all the work, really, and all I did was refuse to move. Dragon also did a good job casing, even though it was a little awkward I felt like it got the point across and proved it was a read he believed in.

I feel like GM was PR reading me. She PR reads my usual play from what I can tell.

Sorry for not being as involved this game. I really am sick of drawing town. I signed up for a newbie hoping that I'd get to draw scum finally but again my luck just wasn't there.

Pedit - yeah that was my reasoning for you being the goon. I feel like copper saw that as well since he said to start with DDD. You couldn't have known the PRs were going to soft as strongly as they did D2, though, so as copper said, you did what you had to do at that time.

[JaeReed]

Thanks to GiF for modding and to Rach for being backup! <3

[Accountant]

not gonna lie, I got carried this game. My head wasn't in the game, lack of enjoyability/motivation, felt as though my reads was all wrong

@DDD: I agree, I have no idea why you got lynched. Everyone kept saying you were obvscum and I was like "huh???" but aparently you were sooooo

[JaeReed]

@DDD: I agree, I have no idea why you got lynched. Everyone kept saying you were obvscum and I was like "huh???" but aparently you were sooooo

Did you not read the beginning of my case? Or Dragon's (albeit awkward) one? I feel like there were reasons laid out that everyone was just handwaving as "no that's not what happened" when some of us clearly saw that as being the interpretation of what happened.

As confused as you were by DDD being obvscum, you had the ones saying he's obvscum just as confused as to why he's being townread.

[Accountant]

I guess it's one of those things that people just don't see the same, like an optical illusion

some players I can never catch as scum, maybe DDD is one of them.

[GuiltyLion]

FMPOV of knowing you guys were correct, I thought there were decent reasons in those cases but they were too wrapped up in convoluted paragraphs of logic or wallposts.

I feel people are more likely to listen when you keep it simple. I gotta say I greatly enjoyed ironstove's approach, despite the fact that he was playing against my win condition

[Accountant]

i greatly did not enjoy ironstove's approach

[goodmorning]

Jae was the only person who actually looked Town this game.

At least now you all know why I wasn't trying super hard to look Town?????? The second everyone started townreading me, I was like, well, I'm dead now.

I townread DDD entirely because I softed PR pretty hard near the end of D1 (when I was too mad, bro) and was pretty sure he would have seen it and blocked/killed me were he Scum. Otherwise he was totally null to me.

If anyone wants me to say IC things I can try.

[Accountant]

I also am guilty of faking a certain amount of apathy but not al of it

[JaeReed]

Idunno what I could have done to save you after the speculation started on you being the cop clear when you clearly were. Ideas? I mean it was also painfully obvious to me D2 that if you were town you were doc with a save on me so I assume that falls true for the scum team as well? So I don't know if there was anything I could do myself.

I did consider fakeclaiming something like BP or JK to make it even harder on scum and try to draw another shot N2, but in the end I thought it'd fuck with the town PRs too much for me to do so. So I kept being allergic to gambits as I usually am. It's not really a good thing to teach in newbies anyway I think.

DDD's vote on me D2 looked a lot like he was trying to work out what happened with the nightkill and wanted to run me up to get info on it. Either through my claim or someone else's. That also contributed to my certainty that DDD was scum.

[JaeReed]

I probably should have kept on going with making that case, because once it got to D2 I think things like DDD's vote on me might have been able to convince at least jon? I understood that GM thought DDD had picked up her softing PR, so I don't know why I kept trying to reach out to her when it was the more unlikely one. I just kinda shut down when I should have kept trying to push in as many ways as possible, knowing I was clear by both copper's flip and GM's save.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD's vote on me D2 looked a lot like he was trying to work out what happened with the nightkill and wanted to run me up to get info on it. Either through my claim or someone else's. That also contributed to my certainty that DDD was scum.

Wouldn't I know what happened to the night kill as scum? Like I was 99% sure that a doctor had protected you, because I suspected that any JK were probably headed my way. I was just trying to frame you up as scum trying to ride the coattails of confirmed town with an unconfirmed plan or scum prepping a fake claim.

[JaeReed]

DDD's vote on me D2 looked a lot like he was trying to work out what happened with the nightkill and wanted to run me up to get info on it. Either through my claim or someone else's. That also contributed to my certainty that DDD was scum.

Wouldn't I know what happened to the night kill as scum? Like I was 99% sure that a doctor had protected you, because I suspected that any JK were probably headed my way. I was just trying to frame you up as scum trying to ride the coattails of confirmed town with an unconfirmed plan or scum prepping a fake claim.

Ah okay. I read it as you weren't quite sure whether I was BP or something. As scum you know that something happened to the nightkill, but you don't know exactly what. Being roleblocker, a jailkeeper could have done what copper said and flipped a coin between you and GL. You could have hit the 1shot bp. I wasn't thinking about the likelihood of you thinking jk would be on the person who didn't submit the kill and all that, since I wasn't a PR that needed to think about that. To me it just looked like you wanted to out the doc/jk/bp (which I feel is essentially what you'd be doing anyway by running me up because GM would have to out or hard defend?). I don't think it was the best of plans, to be honest, but I'm not sure what you could have done there otherwise since you had to defend yourself/discredit me.

Either way, I generally find that anyone scumreading me by D2 tends to just be scum themselves. That knowledge doesn't really help anyone in this game, though, it's just something that I've noticed. I don't know why, but apparently I obvtown in games (no idea how though so lol?) to the point where if I'm pushed it's almost exclusively by scum after the game gets out of the early stages. (Also, I tend to be bandwagoned for RVS a lot by town who have played with me before so they can get an easy read on me)

I wasn't going to engage you on it because I was pretty sure it was a bait to try to get me to say enough to be able to twist it into being scummy, but maybe it would have been better to engage because it might have helped GM change her read on you. My main fear was giving you an opening to talk your way out of it, especially since I know I'm a pushover to AtE and tend to doubt my reads a lot.

[copper223]

So, this game lasted far longer than expected and necessary, I take my part of the responsibility for attacking Acc., GM and Jon's game-play hard enough that some of them took it personally, that combined with the personalities involved is what made lynching DDD so hard on D2.

You could see them really wanting me to be wrong so they could also dismiss my points about how they were playing (other than Accountant, Iron interacted really well with him at the start of D2 and after that Acc. removed most of his bias, idk why you would have Dragon in your scum pool though when I engineered a me vs DDD scenario at the end of D1 precisely because I knew that you would be getting a 2 townies for 1 bundle even if scum lynched me).

I also thought Acc. telling GM first and me later that he was not playing as he usually does, which seemed an obvious PR hint to me, was him setting up shenanigans later on as mafia for a big chunk of D1 and that led me astray for a while until Dragon's L-1 post confirmed him as town for me and DDD became obv. scum, my bad there I should have researched Acc.'s scum game more.

I knew Jae was either BP or VT and I lol'ed when GM "subtly" called me out for exposing PR's. Jae btw easily deserves the MVP, only his saintly patience (for most of) D2 is what mended bridges and allowed town to work together again, as I said at that point it was not about reads anymore.

I suspected one of the reasons for why GL had to pivot was DDD being scum RB but I was in no way certain.

Now:

When I saw the failed hammer on D2, before GM late posted the hammer, I wrote to Mina telling her I don't believe GM should IC.

I am less sanguine about it now because derping on time is not as egregious as refusing to hammer, which would have demonstrated a lack of knowledge on a mechanical level about the game, but I do think her game is in a very bad place at the moment.

Since she seems like a clearly intelligent player my best guess is that having seen so much BS in her 50+ newbies she doesn't recognize the baseline for how scum behaves anymore and just ignores it as WIFOM, play a bunch of games outside of Rome would be my advice.

I told Accountant about my Mina post and he already told her he disagrees with me and thinks GM is a fine IC, feel free to PM Mina and tell her what you think.

I'll make a separate post about my newer player impression, but you played great guys.

[copper223]

@Iron
You could probably teach some of us about reading players so I have nothing to say here other than congratz.

Tactically though I have a few remarks:

If you suspect someone on the wagon you are pushing may be scum, don't out that read on the same day unless it changes who you want to lynch, bring the lynch you want to achieve home first and then re-evalute after the flip, "don't criticize your party".

Your play-style lives or dies on it's reads, and as you saw D2 when you started to (understandably) doubt your DDD read that could have been a big problem going forwards, if that's your style of choice be aware of it's weakness and expect a scum push on you the longer the game goes with incorrect reads on your part.

Cheers, you don't need to play newbies so I'll see you around in other forums.

@Dragon
Your reads were also spot on so good job there.

Your play-style is similar to mine, so obviously it's the best . I do think there is work to do wrt reacting under pressure, your posts about being very unsure of DDD because it would lead to a lost lylo come off as super scummy to most players, just accept that you have to be right on DDD and believe in your read, if that doesn't happen you will have to take responsibility for it and give your best at lylo to make up for that mistake, you can't fence sit.

Also scum showed you this game that you never give up, they had a small chance despite so many players reading them correctly, you also always have a chance!

Same as Iron I don't think you need other newbies unless you like it here,