In post 1110, Bellaphant wrote:Don't agree with frog about the Titus hydra for now, but can see where they are coming from. Reassured cat is picking up the same vibes as me from galron.
They used cat's read as kind of a reassurance to look good for their galron read which is PD's previous slot
In post 2292, Bellaphant wrote:@tsly, you disagree? I think cat evaluates a ton of slots, but also sees some stuff where they disagree but also take the time to work out if the thought process behind it comes from a solveu town mindset. Plus, they were sharing a bunch of my thoughts - the ceph wagon, toad, etc. I disliked t bones reaction a lot, but also I think I'm just a bit clashy with t bone in general
Again they kind of used csf's reads to look good saying that they shared the same read on ceph and we already know that ceph is town.
In post 8169, Bellaphant wrote:
I don't know how to read professor drapion - yesterday I was scum with frog, and today their scum reads are weird. I also think the consistent push on CSF is ridiculous, as they are my strongest town read.
They called csf their strongest town and used it to shade pd's push on csf
They kept calling csf obv town
I honestly haven't looked at any of csf posts on a microscope so I'm not sure how justified a tr on them is but this looks good for csf
especially when it's compared to bella's hedgy read on mathblade their scum buddy.
I had this similar post earlier
This was before csf claimed JK
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:47 am
by Off The Hook
In post 14945, butterflies wrote:@OtH, @BB, Roden, Johnny and Noraa have all commented one way or another on my questioning my Johnny read. Do either of you have any thoughts on that?
What exactly are you questioning regarding Johnny?
In post 14945, butterflies wrote:@OtH, @BB, Roden, Johnny and Noraa have all commented one way or another on my questioning my Johnny read. Do either of you have any thoughts on that?
What exactly are you questioning regarding Johnny?
~GE
My unvoting Johnny. Both you and BB are still voting him, yet say absolutely nothing about that.
And where are you getting MB pocketing me from? If MB is pocketing me, it’s like the worst pocket in mafia history.
And both Marci and BB look to be trying to shade Noraa suddenly. Despite you and BB both voting Johnny, neither of you are even talking about his alignment anymore. Why is that?
Now, I believe Luke genuinely is sr Noraa but BB previously gave the impression that he was going to have some scumcase on Johnny from either Ceph or Luke but he only mentions Noraa.
So maybe I should also ask both you and BB what your read is on each other?
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:02 am
by Best Bird
not sure where you think i gave the impression i was going to have a scumcase
i wasn't shading noraa, i was explaining why Luke has peaced out.
also, I would vote OtH but prefer johnny first given pooky, luke, and ceph all agreed there.
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:26 am
by butterflies
In post 14953, Best Bird wrote:not sure where you think i gave the impression i was going to have a scumcase
i wasn't shading noraa, i was explaining why Luke has peaced out.
also, I would vote OtH but prefer johnny first given pooky, luke, and ceph all agreed there.
I wanted to kill Johnny too but his recent posting is really good. -
which is WHY I unvoted
, so none of that is particularly persuasive.
Anyway, who is Johnny’s buddy?
I know I’m town, Roden-duh and I think Noraa and MB look pretty townie. I think Johnny doesn’t look to be aligned with anyone based on reading everyone’s posts since I unvoted, unless you’re going to argue he’s being bussed and I don’t think it’s particularily optimal for scum to bus, especially with Johnny’s recent posting.
So, what is Johnny’s hypothetical buddy doing according to you?
And what if Johnny flips town? Who do you think the scum is?
In post 14948, Noraa wrote:i actually dont see the tmi in actually, any of those posts. like malcolm assuming johnny is town makes sense if he thinks johnny is town, no?
I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying but it's TMI because of the way he approaches the read and thinks 'he's town'.
Johnny is like an lhf and Malcolm was banking on that fact to continously ask town what's his scum motive for defending johnny here. It's weird if Johnny is his scum partner as that would just directly implicate him if johnny flips and would lead town to make a connection between the two of them.
im not following. i know you're not trying to say that johnny and malcolm are scum, but thats what im coming out of your post thinking you're saying. this seems like a lot of wifom. i dont see the tmi because if you think someone is town, you will talk like you are certain they are town even though that doesn't logically make sense.
In post 12224, Cytosine and Guanine wrote:Malcolm.
Can you explain your SRs on CSF and BB?
I don't get them, especially on CSF who hasn't been doing scummy things as of late.
-Guanine
Outlined beforehand I liked the possibility of a CSF/Bella team, their interactions with each other felt like it could check out as scum teammates - some soft TR's with the occasional null read thrown in there just to create a little bit of distance. Beyond that I don't think CSF's pushes have been great as of late and feel like they could be coming from scum trying to defend teammates and implicate other players I read as town.
Is is not interesting, eg, that Cat continually pushes Johnny, who I think is looking really townie, and then as the day wears on a whole bunch of votes start to pile onto Johnny again?
In post 12226, Cytosine and Guanine wrote:I see.
Though, I think that CSF's push on Johnny is NAI because it could be due to her not wanting to vote you or Mala and Johnny being her SR.
On the other hand, why is Johnny a TR? He's still null for me.
-Guanine
I don't see Johnny/Math being scum together on the basis of their interactions before Math was eliminated. I scumread Johnny early on but have very much flipped on that and have made that clear. I'm aware I could have some incorrect reads myself, but I very much feel like we've mindmelded a bit and I think his pushes and reads have gotten increasingly solid as the game goes on.
I'd also argue that my reevaluation of Johnny in itself is pretty townie and shows a decent degree of flexibility
given my continued push for Rad in the last day or two which hasn't really gone away despite my willingness to compromise at the moment. Mala/Johnny are the two main alternatives to me but I've not particularly pushed either of them too strongly because I'm not convinced they're scum, albeit I am willing to compromise on Mala because I'm not certain enough on the slot to fight for saving it when my elimination is the likely alternative.
In post 13372, MalcolmTucker wrote:I believed BBT was town and little has changed that since. I believe Johnny is very likely town and wasn't interested in going there either
I kind of think your Johnny read is incoherent
I'm not sure why you think this.
I've stated several times Johnny's interactions with scum didn't strike me as aligned. I also increasingly mindmelded with them in a way I felt was unlikely to be scum.
Also, if I'm scum, what's my motive for suddenly going from scum to town on Johnny? It's a slot I could've pushed reasonably as scum continually, no? Suspicion has remained there and it'd have been a viable alternative if I wanted to divert away from Mala at any point. I'm not sure what I particularly gain from backing off Johnny as scum?
My read there is a perfectly natural development where I've reassessed a player as the game has gone on.
In post 13675, MalcolmTucker wrote:I tend to try and stay relatively calm during games but will be immensely frustrated if my elimination as town here is partially caused by scum basically annoying some townies into giving them another day. I am not scum here and I've presented what I think is a solid and robust case as to why I'm not.
What even is the actual case against me anyway? For the most part beyond one or two people who genuinely suspect me I feel as if it boils down to vibes since I'm not officially cleared yet. It feels a bit like the recurring case against BBT earlier in the game - when it came to actually presenting proper evidence for why BBT was scum nobody was really able to do so.
Malcolm here ignores the valid reasons to scumread him and is reductive of the case. He hasn't really engaged with CSF's reasoning about how his read progression on Johnny is inconsistent, and now he is acting as if there aren't any reasons to scumread him.
I have engaged with this and I believe CSF's case re Johnny is fairly inaccurate.
What's my motivation to sort Johnny as town if I'm scum anyway? It'd have been a useful place for me to continue pushing along with Rad given there's been pressure remaining on that slot if I was scum, no?
In post 13766, MalcolmTucker wrote:I have engaged with this and I believe CSF's case re Johnny is fairly inaccurate. What's my motivation to sort Johnny as town if I'm scum anyway? It'd have been a useful place for me to continue pushing along with Rad given there's been pressure remaining on that slot if I was scum, no?
I felt your claim my read on Johnny had evolved weakly or was inconsistent was inaccurate.
I've stated myself I didn't really think Mala was likely to be scum but I maintain they were a better vote than Johnny would have been - Johnny's posts had improved for me and I'll admit that was partially due to us mindmelding. I'll admit there's always a chance Johnny could be pocketing me but that seems unlikely because from my POV as town that'd involve them in all likelihood openly scumreading scum partners all to pocket a player who's been a prime elimination candidate for the past two turns.
Either way, where's the scum motive in my changed read on Johnny? It's surely a useful slot for scum Malcolm to keep pushing, no? My posts may not offer the clarity you want but I've been pretty open that my early read on Johnny was probably a partial misread based on their tone, once I got used to that tone and evaluated that slot again I began to see how they approached the game as really townie. The only motive here is surely if I'm partnered with Johnny but that seems infeasible from a scum POV - remember early in the game I was openly advocating for Johnny's elimination even when Math (I think it was Math) was trying to get us to settle on some other players.
I feel like your read on me is less based in the conviction I'm actually scum and is more centred around the fact you dislike how I've articulated my progression on another player you've scumread. But there's a world where I can be wrong and Johnny and you're right without me being scum.
I've highlighted some sentences that sounds TMI
He shaded csf for the johnny push and said it was weird that votes piled up on Johnny suddenly.
He called his read on Johnny as 'towny' for reevaluating and being flexible which is weird
He also asked multiple times about what scum motive could he have for townreading Johnny and only at the last quote did he realize that people could perhaps think that him and johnny could be partnered as scum. I think this never crossed his mind until recently because of the TMI he have on Johnny's slot.
This reads similar to Math calling the Taly votes during gladiate - a “dogpile”.
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:46 am
by Best Bird
lol - Johnny’s posting today has been good? If you think that I have nothing to say to you.
In post 7309, RCEnigma wrote:If you DO NOT think ceph is scum, vote Taly.
If you DO NOT think Taly is scum, vote Ceph.
What if you think neither scum? Yeah I would 100% vote Ceph > Taly but the more sensible option is to no lim.
I’ve already said I don’t think either are scum. You don’t want to vote Taly because you townread them and I’m on the other end. But I’m averse to a no elim just to save 1 person in my maybe town pool.
WHY are you averse to abstaining in order to save a maybe-town? Cephrir is a maybe-town for me but I'm still voting to abstain because I think either elimination is bad. Voting Taly is giving the bad players what they want, and voting Cephrir is just punishing him for being weak-willed.
~GE
Because you are valuing the life of potential town over information for the town. Taly flipping town says to me, DP pretty much conf-town. I can focus on the slots that tipped the scales between Taly being glaciated or Johnny being gladiated. And if some info came out about Johnny then it slims that pool down no? Plus whatever other info comes out from invests etc.
Then I can look at who was pushing Taly before all the gladiate stuff and why, etc etc.
But if we no lim I’m still no closer to knowing if Taly is town or not, I don’t know if the slots that pushed the gladiate target over are town or not because I don’t know if Taly is or not. And so on.
Does that make sense?
Not really.
This entire argument can be replaced with Ceph instead and pick a different lock town player
Ok, then replace every Taly with Ceph.
This doesn’t make sense you wingnut.
~GE
It doesn’t but math is being purposefully pedantic and I’m not really in the mood to make it a whole thing if voting math isn’t even on the table today.
More dodging the question.
The more this question gets dodged the more I want no elim or Ceph.
In post 7137, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:Perhaps I am being too demanding when I ask for a full scum case on Taly from whoever is advocating for Taly to get killed here.
I will lower the bar for those who want to kill Taly.
Give me your single most compelling reason to believe Taly is mafia here.
- I received a neighbor PM, and I find it odd for Toog to come to the conclusion that he should be treating bell like town off the bat. My expectation for town receiving that role pm to be healthy distrust of their hoodmate. Makes me question if he was actually interested in sorting Bell, or if he was mainly hoping for mutual town reads.
- I feel like Taly has a poor signal to noise ratio. She has been one of the slots this game that I have found it hard to remember a single post she has made. (in my experience, there tends to exist at least some scum in this list)
- To copy and paste something that I incorrectly said about math, but does apply to Taly: She prioritized checking her own iso for claims early on during her rep in.
Taly claims her hood with Bell in her very first post of 1041. Then clarifies that she thought it was good to do so because she did an iso skim of Toog before she made her first post.
- I will ducktail this into saying that that makes me scratch my head at this post 11 posts later .
In post 1580, Taly wrote:I just realized Toog has only posted twice and now I'm tilting my head at the suspicion there.
pedit: pooky already voted, so this was a waste of my time smh.
In post 7214, Lukewarm wrote:I am not going to pretend that I am convinced she is scum.
But, I also don't think that she is a lock town.
And I think killing a null-ish slot is better then killing no one.
Hope that helps you pooky.
This makes sense.
Spiritual vote on Taly.
I will see where things stand after my nap to give Ceph people a chance to provide a case.
I thought you flipped your read on them, if I misunderstood you, please feel free to correct me on that.
I have no read
My top theory is she is scum but that’s a theory
Based on? People who are saying I haven’t given a reason why they’re town, what is the basis for Taly scum? Pretty much every single argument I’ve heard is why Ceph is town, not why Taly isn’t. Absolutely nothing I’ve read is convincing me they’re scum.
Wagon speed
Reposting this because MB’s case on Malcolm tming Johnny sounds similar to Math’s interactions with both Taly and Ceph.
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:00 am
by butterflies
In post 14957, Best Bird wrote:lol - Johnny’s posting today has been good? If you think that I have nothing to say to you.
Yes, that’s my opinion and if you want to convince me otherwise, this won’t accomplish that.
In post 14953, Best Bird wrote:not sure where you think i gave the impression i was going to have a scumcase
i wasn't shading noraa, i was explaining why Luke has peaced out.
also, I would vote OtH but prefer johnny first given pooky, luke, and ceph all agreed there.
I wanted to kill Johnny too but his recent posting is really good. -
which is WHY I unvoted
, so none of that is particularly persuasive.
Anyway, who is Johnny’s buddy?
I know I’m town, Roden-duh and I think Noraa and MB look pretty townie. I think Johnny doesn’t look to be aligned with anyone based on reading everyone’s posts since I unvoted, unless you’re going to argue he’s being bussed and I don’t think it’s particularily optimal for scum to bus, especially with Johnny’s recent posting.
So, what is Johnny’s hypothetical buddy doing according to you?
And what if Johnny flips town? Who do you think the scum is?
@BB, why not respond to the rest of my questions? Who do you think is Johnny’s buddy and what are they doing?
Your argument seems to be trying to discredit my opinion and because dead town says so, well not all dead town agree anyway but it doesn’t matter because you haven’t posted any recent dead town reads on Johnny since I unvoted.
What are your reads on everyone else? Who are the town here according to you?
In post 14957, Best Bird wrote:lol - Johnny’s posting today has been good? If you think that I have nothing to say to you.
Yes, that’s my opinion and if you want to convince me otherwise, this won’t accomplish that.
don't care - johnny flipping from wanting your lim to voting oth is gross but you won't be able to see it because
a) you're scum with him (explains the unvote at e-1 and sudden defense posture)
b) you've bought into his ate to you and you're blind now
either way, nothing I say will convice you so I'm not going to waste my time. kinda don't care to effort anymore after the fake guilty and luke peacing out
In post 14948, Noraa wrote:i actually dont see the tmi in actually, any of those posts. like malcolm assuming johnny is town makes sense if he thinks johnny is town, no?
I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying but it's TMI because of the way he approaches the read and thinks 'he's town'.
Johnny is like an lhf and Malcolm was banking on that fact to continously ask town what's his scum motive for defending johnny here. It's weird if Johnny is his scum partner as that would just directly implicate him if johnny flips and would lead town to make a connection between the two of them.
im not following. i know you're not trying to say that johnny and malcolm are scum, but thats what im coming out of your post thinking you're saying. this seems like a lot of wifom. i dont see the tmi because if you think someone is town, you will talk like you are certain they are town even though that doesn't logically make sense.
Okay. I'm curious how you catch people with TMI
If you think that it's natural that scum would talk certain about their townreads regardless of alignment.
In post 14957, Best Bird wrote:lol - Johnny’s posting today has been good? If you think that I have nothing to say to you.
Yes, that’s my opinion and if you want to convince me otherwise, this won’t accomplish that.
either way, nothing I say will convice you so I'm not going to waste my time. kinda don't care to effort anymore after the fake guilty and luke peacing out
but you hardly effort.
strongest case and push you made was on Rad and it wasn't even yours but luke's
In post 14948, Noraa wrote:i actually dont see the tmi in actually, any of those posts. like malcolm assuming johnny is town makes sense if he thinks johnny is town, no?
I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying but it's TMI because of the way he approaches the read and thinks 'he's town'.
Johnny is like an lhf and Malcolm was banking on that fact to continously ask town what's his scum motive for defending johnny here. It's weird if Johnny is his scum partner as that would just directly implicate him if johnny flips and would lead town to make a connection between the two of them.
im not following. i know you're not trying to say that johnny and malcolm are scum, but thats what im coming out of your post thinking you're saying. this seems like a lot of wifom. i dont see the tmi because if you think someone is town, you will talk like you are certain they are town even though that doesn't logically make sense.
Okay. I'm curious how you catch people with TMI
If you think that it's natural that scum would talk certain about their townreads regardless of alignment.
uh well i think tmi is like when scum says a read out of nowhere. like if scum was always like omg X is scum. all of the sudden they say "if i was scum, why wouldn't i just push X; thats an easy mislim right?"
something like that.
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:40 pm
by Noraa
the whole butterfly bb dynamic is just :/
like i really just dont agree with anything and then anything that i do agree with im like O_o o_O
i think i would say they probably aren't scum together but i currently think that bb-nancy is more likely than johnny-nancy because that interaction was kind of funky. bb calls johnny-nancy scum which is exactly what i said like i swear two pages ago. and its so out of nowhere that im like :// it gives me the exact same feeling as nancys 360 on johnny. but it could also be that it really is nancy-johnny and bb just sees it too. im not sure but i think bb looks scummier than nancy right now, so that makes nancy-bb more likely than johnny-nancy probably.
i need roden input on nancy's alignment. im just mmm i really believe she could pull this off as scum. like i feel like my paranoia is being brushed away and it's making me even more paranoid. i feel like i could loop in circles about my read on nancy for like days.
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:42 pm
by Noraa
flea not being here is sad but also flea posting probably wouldnt really be able to help me read the slot. sigh.
i effort when i feel appropriate otherwise i just do what I want.
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:31 pm
by Roden
Tbh Mislim makes some good points, and I've been having some doubts about OTH as this Day phase has gone on
I feel like both heads of the hydra aren't really showing any urgency or concern about possibly heading into ELO, even making a comment about how if they voted out today "then so be it." Like that feels like it's trying too hard to be appeasing and look apathetic. Their general vibe today feels very disengaged and detached, like as if they're settling for a Johnny elim rather than actually believing that he's scum.
Also, a bit of a meta read here but Marci tends to meme around a lot more as town. Even in Mini Normal 2276, she was town and slaying all game long even though she was getting scum read the entire game. She feels a lot more subdued this game though.
In post 14957, Best Bird wrote:lol - Johnny’s posting today has been good? If you think that I have nothing to say to you.
Yes, that’s my opinion and if you want to convince me otherwise, this won’t accomplish that.
don't care - johnny flipping from wanting your lim to voting oth is gross but you won't be able to see it because
a) you're scum with him (explains the unvote at e-1 and sudden defense posture)
b) you've bought into his ate to you and you're blind now
either way, nothing I say will convice you so I'm not going to waste my time. kinda don't care to effort anymore after the fake guilty and luke peacing out
luke came back and said that noraa is also a possible partner with how ze setup both you and me as potential partners to johnny.
his plan would be johnny>noraa>you
he agreed with me that you backing of johnny was weird.
johnny should go first though.
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:49 pm
by Best Bird
tbc - luke thinks that Mislim, Roden, and oth are town. We somewhat disagree on the last read.
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:08 pm
by Noraa
In post 14971, Best Bird wrote:
luke came back and said that noraa is also a possible partner with how ze setup both you and me as potential partners to johnny.
his plan would be johnny>noraa>you
he agreed with me that you backing of johnny was weird.
johnny should go first though.
i called nancy out for the 180 on johnny. you think i am scum with johnny. scum that decided to create pairings of scum, all with my scum partner instead of taking nancy's 180 and running with it.
you agree with best bird about 360 on johnny weird? you agree with ME. *I* said that first. Best bird was silent for DAYS after i posted that.
In post 14971, Best Bird wrote:
luke came back and said that noraa is also a possible partner with how ze setup both you and me as potential partners to johnny.
his plan would be johnny>noraa>you
he agreed with me that you backing of johnny was weird.
johnny should go first though.
i called nancy out for the 180 on johnny. you think i am scum with johnny. scum that decided to create pairings of scum, all with my scum partner instead of taking nancy's 180 and running with it.
you agree with best bird about 360 on johnny weird? you agree with ME. *I* said that first. Best bird was silent for DAYS after i posted that.
Not sure why you are confused on who said what since I was explcit.
Sorry - are you...are you talking directly to luke?