Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 1.4 - As of post 150

GreyICE (1) - Greenknight
Greenknight (5) - Acosmist, CryMeARiver, triangle123, Zang, Starbuck
Korlash (1) -T-Bone
jasont1981 (3) - Tierce, GreyICE, Iecerint
T-Bone (2) - kortul, Korlash

Not Voting (1) - jasonT1981

The Current deadline is July 17, 2012 at 10:00 am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-07-17 10:00:00).

With 13 active votes - 7 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

Mod Notes -
CryMeARiver has been prodded

[jasonT1981]

only up to page 6, bear with me please

Gray is probably faking, but Zang is taking the fact that people are voting him based on an "obvious lie" from a player he has history with too calmly imo.

Vote: Zang

This, left a bad taste in my mouth. "Oh he isn't freaking out he must be scum".

What if he was freaking out, would you use that as an excuse to vote?

So Jason has the 'fencesitting' and Green has the backwards logic... Zang's 65 irks me...

please show me eexactly where I am fence sitting, please.. don't like how Korlash says Zangs post Irks him but doesnt go into any more details.

This dude though, this dude is not town at all.

Vote: JasonT1981

Acosmist is town, probable other scum is Greenknight and Starbuck.

Alright, GrayICE... lets call you on this, why exactly am I not town?

Greenknight's explanation was good enough for me. My vote was to pressure him, not to try and go into a full head of steam lynch. I disagree with his reasons, but just because I disagree with him doesn't mean I have to think of him as scum.

town posting... I think if TBone was scum he would not have unvoted and continued to challange and make a thing of it... he is letting it go so I think town. Scum would have pushed.

Im pretty sure thats not fence sitting, but taking a position on it.

taking what amounts to a 'fake' position does not excuse the fence sit mate. You start off the post with reasons he could be telling the truth, say you think he is lying, then suggest a play that relies on him telling the truth.

Well, lets see, how is saying I dont believe it taking a fake position? I pushed Gray to give more information and he admitted he was lying...

how is that taking a fake position.

[jasonT1981]

BAH Quote fail lol

[CryMeARiver]

Let's see what has happened so far from page 4.

Starbuck finally decides to acknowledge Grey's claim.
T-Bone votes green for essentially the same reason I did.

Hmm, there is no connection between this post and you skipping RVS. I actually liked the post, since our thought process seem to be mostly the same so far. As for the RVS, do i understand you correctly and you ignored it intentionally? If yes, what was the reason?

No reason to acknowledge RVS when shit has already happened.

Green actually seems to have sound reasoning from his perspective for his vote on Zang. Even if I do disagree that overreacting would be protown. But speculating on how he should have reacted is WIFOM.

Unvote

T-Bone unvotes green for essentially the same reason I do.

Zang's 83 should read protown, but sits wrong with me

Jason's posting isn't good and taking a stance followed by fencesitting is still fencesitting. Korlash explains it well.

Iec sits right with me, he has the same reads on jason and T-Bone that I do. Oh good and he had the same thoughts as me and T-Bone.

Wow. I don't understand how half a town can read everything that's happened one way, and the other the other way. It seems to be T-Bone, me, Iec, green vs. Korlash, Starbuck, Zang in how we read things. Jason seems to have just stuck to defending himself and not commenting on the situation. Grey just posts his reads and also ignores the situation.

I like how green backed off Zang and admitted that there was nothing to go on in the back and forth and switched to Grey instead since Grey just posted reads without reasoning. I don't find Grey scummy for this, but he should provide reasoning and should comment on the ongoing situation. Also, I think either I'm completely pinging green wrong or Zang is scum. I don't see both as town for some reason. Also, I don't like Jason. I'm at mid-page 5 right now and I'll make the rest into another post to avoid too large of a wall.

[greenknight]

Greenknight- Please respond to my question in post 111. I have already asked twice and you have failed to respond to me. This is scummy.

I felt explaining my stance on Greyice to be more important. If you mean what experience I'm going off, I'm used to offsite games with an aggressive 48 hour deadline meta. If you or anyone else wants to check my town meta onsite, I can only point you to one game, Seacore's Good vs Evil large theme (I get killed on night 2 so it shouldn't be a long iso.)

Being wrong is not scummy. Greenknight is scummy for his insistence on his wrong reasoning.

If he unvoted me a few posts later and admitted that his reasoning was bad or that it didn't apply in this case, then I would have even seen that as a town tell. But he didn't do that and even when it was clear to everyone else that his reasoning was bad, he kept trying to push his case on me. Even after he unvoted me, he still defends his reasoning. This is scummy.

Actually, the reason I've had to explain my reasoning is because people kept asking me to explain it. I'm not actually defending that as an applicable tell anymore; if I was, I wouldn't have unvoted you. Funnily enough, you call me scummy for trying to push you and Triangle calls me scummy for not pushing you enough I backed down when I did because arguing "this is a good tell" vs "no it isn't" when several people were taking your side meant that further argument wouldn't accomplish anything constructive.

[greenknight]

@

greenknight

- i still don't follow your logic. Why do you think that just saying "X is town" means defending X and/or trying to get towncred from X? Or let me ask it this way - imagine GreyICE did exactly the same post, only last sentence is "Greenknight is town, probable other scum is Acosmist and Starbuck." Would you give him towncred for this and vote someone else? If someone else, who would it be (ie who else do you think is scum)?

Ok with reference to "Greenknight is town" specifically, I know I'm town and was in danger of being mislynched at the time when my wagon was still growing, so I actually do consider trying to stop my wagon to be a medium strength town tell. Leaving the question of my alignment aside, if you call a town tell on someone when there's an actual wagon on them, then that tell is useful defending, contributing towards helping the town scum hunt. On the other hand if you say "A, B, C, D and E are town" when they aren't under pressure with no explanation that's useless noise, doesn't really commit to anything because no one expects people to stick to their day 1 reads for the rest of the game, and I'm surprised that people actually consider it acceptable practice for town to post this sort of list. Makes things too easy for scum, as people will tend to give a bit of towncred when someone calls them town.

Another thing I don't like is that Grey has been completely avoiding engaging in any discussion and is just off on his own private fishing expedition for the second time. All this is pretty convenient if he's scum playing the "let everyone else argue" game.

Ironically, since she happens to be on Greyice's scum list, I do find Starbuck suspicious. Because she accuses me of trying too hard to put a case together against Zang, and I feel that's exactly what she's doing against me.

[Korlash]

Why? Why would I have a specific person in mind? I was trying to show greenknight that in any situation, it is not unreasonable to vote. The specific person should not matter at all.

You used the word "someone" in reference to the situation between you and ICE. So you either meant "If it was someone else who investigated me" or "If it was someone else ICE investigated". I want to know which one.

I'm not asking who the 'someone' is, I'm asking who the 'someone' replaces in the equation: ICE investigated Zang

A simple question you've turned into a three page discussion.

The whole scum motivation for fence sitting is to avoid taking a stance on something so that they can not be held responsible for it later. The fact that he took a position on it, even if it is not a strong one, ruins the whole scum motivation for it. That's why to me it looks to me more like town exploring the possibilities than scum fence sitting.

Fence sitting is not as simple as 'not taking a stand' on something. It's playing both sides. And while I see no scum motivation in what Jason did, I certainly see the possibility for it to exist.

How is your opinion on Jason not fencesitting according to you? In that post alone, you say that he is fencesitting, then you say that he could be just exploring the possibilities, but then you say that he isn't and then you say that he isn't scum.

From an outside perspective, it is. The difference is everything I say lines up on the same side of the fence regardless of how you string it along. I've never called him scum for his fence sitting nor implied fence sitting is a pure scum intent. I assume your mention of 'exploring possibilities' is suppose to imply that it's contradicting for me to say that in conjunction to him fence sitting because they somehow don't go together, which is false as I said him 'exploring possibilities' would 'explain' the fence sit, not 'excuse' it in anyway.

How can you be held accountable for reasoning that you have not stated? Why not just post the reasoning with your vote?

I hate using such a crap post as an example but T-Bones accusation of me having no reason would be someone holding me accountable for it, wouldn't you say? I said I was voting on a hunch, at some point someone would ask me 'what hunch' and I would be held accountable for what answer I gave at that time. I didn't post the reason because I felt the vote was better without it at the time.

Also, why is this the only real thing in the T-Bone/Korlash debacle you felt the need to comment on? Didn't you claim the 'case' on him was good? Here it gets even better and you ignore it for the most part.

[GreyICE]

HEY GUYS

I MIGHT BE WRONG ABOUT STARBUCK

I NEED TO SEE

BUT JASON NEEDS THE DEATHS

[Korlash]

please show me eexactly where I am fence sitting, please.. don't like how Korlash says Zangs post Irks him but doesnt go into any more details.

You give a reason ICE could be telling the truth, then say you believe he is lying, and then submit a proposal that hinges on him telling the truth. That is playing both sides, cementing a stand on side A while pushing side B.

When you take a stand on Side A and then continue to play over in Side B, that is tantamount to taking no side at all. The stance on Side A is as good as face value for when Side B blows up. The fact someone says "Fence sit" and you go "no no no, look I took a stance here... let me show you..." kinda proves my fucking point.

Luckily for you, the situation in question is a claimed guilty which means there HAS to be some playing in the other field which makes this fence sit very minor. Your reaction to it obviously makes it worse, but I still think it's minor compared to other things (and that other elements in this game also suggest you are town...)

And I did go into details mate, I specifically asked him a question about it which he has so far failed to answer.

town posting... I think if TBone was scum he would not have unvoted and continued to challange and make a thing of it... he is letting it go so I think town. Scum would have pushed.

False. A townie would not give up the ONLY THING IN THE FUCKING GAME he felt was worth commenting on. You've also assumed green is town here I take it? I agree with you, of course, but you do see the scum motivation in not pushing a mislynch right?

[Korlash]

Green actually seems to have sound reasoning from his perspective for his vote on Zang. Even if I do disagree that overreacting would be protown. But speculating on how he should have reacted is WIFOM. Unvote

T-Bone unvotes green for essentially the same reason I do.

Yeah... Was your wording here intentional, or is it just a coincidence that what you've done here gives T-Bone something to wedge into my case against him? (obviously rhetorical mate)

What is your stance on T-Bone? You seem to like that he thinks the same way that you do, but that's doesn't say a lot to me.

What is specifically wrong with Zang's 83?

[jasonT1981]

Has GrayICE actualy done anything productive aside from shout SCUM SCUM SCUM?

GrayICE shut the fuck up for once in your pathetic life

[jasonT1981]

Yea, looking at GrayICE this guy has added nothing to the game and just spouting scum scum scum at anything without any further backing up or reasoning.

vote: GrayICE

[jasonT1981]

So, the fact I continued to push GrayICE on the matter, is me fence sitting, Korlash?

[GreyICE]

HEY KORLASH

JASON WANTS TO DIE

LETS MAKE IT HAPPEN

[jasonT1981]

Hey GrayICE shut the fuck up! Do something productive and back up your shit.

[Korlash]

So, the fact I continued to push GrayICE on the matter, is me fence sitting, Korlash?

First off, don't tell ICE to shut up and then make a fucking stupid post like this.

Second off, no. You have done nothing to contradict voting ICE(in any sense) and thus there is no fence sitting.

Third off, jokingly shrugging off a suspicious act before anyone even mentions it (or, maliciously joking about an attack someone has made against you in an attempt to discredit said attack) is a hell of a lot more scummy than your less than interesting fence sitting.

HEY KORLASH

JASON WANTS TO DIE

LETS MAKE IT HAPPEN

Tempting as it is with him rapidly losing all the town points i gave him, he still ranks far lower than T-Bone.

Hey GrayICE shut the fuck up! Do something productive and back up your shit.

Yeah when you start a post of with "I'm only up to so and so page so bare with me" you really shouldn't be doing this type of shit mate. It's pathetically dull. Tell me when you've finished reading the game and give me an opinion of T-Bone (and Zang while you're at it) thanks.

[jasonT1981]

T-Bone - Town his 127 is great.
Zang Town

Scum so far would be

Starbuck - some posts seem forced, trying to blend in
GrayICE - Needs to do something other than shout scum from the rooftops.

[Korlash]

T-Bone - Town his 127 is great.

His 127 is complete crap. Misrep, lies, deflection, and complete ignorance of my posts. How the hell do you justify it as 'good'?

[jasonT1981]

if it helps I see his fight with you as town / town...

its getting late, blagh. night folks

[GreyICE]

Hey GrayICE shut the fuck up! Do something productive and back up your shit.

I'm voting for scum.

Sucks to be you

[Korlash]

if it helps I see his fight with you as town / town...

That's a poor way to phrase it. You see a fight between two other people as town/town, you see a fight between yourself and someone else as simply them being town...

And again, which part of T-Bone's post was 'great'? The fabricated case on me, or the part where he poorly pushes your wagon?

[Tierce]

Heh, not going to catch up today. I like Korlash's proactiveness so far, but this skim is hardly thorough and there is a lot I want to look more deeply at. See you tomorrow, whenever tomorrow is with my sleep schedule.

[triangle123]

You said that green is inviting WIFOM, then explained how, said that there's no proper way to react, and told us what would you do in such situation to demonstrate WIFOM. And it was done from scum perspective, that's how i read it. There's no "if i were scum" clause before your example.

Although I do find T-Bone scummy, I actually disagree with this particular point on him. I feel like this is reading too much into his statement because reading over what he said, it looks to me like the "If I were scum" clause was more or less implied since T-Bone's quote was all about how scum would react to a given situation.

CMAR, why do you think Zang and Green must have opposing alignments?

Triangle calls me scummy for not pushing you enough.

Please don't misrepresent my arguments. I called you scummy for having forced reasoning and particularly for claiming to have been doing a reaction/pressure test when your actions very clearly indicate otherwise.

Jason's vote on Grey was not exactly the greatest vote I've ever seen, but I don't think it's a scummy vote. His anger at Grey (and other people pushing on him as well, I suppose) feels like genuine townie anger, but I need to look at some of his past games to get a better feel on him.

[greenknight]

Korlash, you're reading way too much into T-bone's #82. His explanation that he voted to pressure me for an explanation and unvoted when he didn't find my response scummy makes sense to me at face value. And since he gets my explanation, commenting on triangle's immediately preceding #81 which didn't get it is natural enough. There's no insinuation of triangle being scum there (it's a bit odd that he refers to it as an attack later as it doesn't really look like one.)

#100 clarifies the unvote reasoning, his attitude at this point is "this should be obvious" as shown in #102.

At #127 he decides you're scummy for continuing to attack him over #82. In his point 2 against you there, he asks you why you think unvoting me was scummy. You haven't further explained this. You should.


Regarding Jason, I don't see #63 as fence sitting or a deliberate attempt to spread confusion, most people have already expressed an opinion on Grey's claim at this point and Grey would be expected to pop up soon and confirm/retract. So I don't see a real potential to spread much confusion here. It just reads as a stream of thought post to me running through the various possibilities. I want to see more of his thought process though, as he spent quite a while just defending himself against the charge of fencesitting. In particular, why is Korlash vs T-bone town on town?

[greenknight]

Please don't misrepresent my arguments. I called you scummy for having forced reasoning and particularly for claiming to have been doing a reaction/pressure test when your actions very clearly indicate otherwise.

Consider that people jumped on me quickly after I voted Zang and took his side, making it impossible for me to seriously pressure him. So what exactly are you arguing was my supposed scum motivation for voting Zang?