Mini 1451: A Memory of Light (Game Over)

[Ghostlin]

Also, Nero, do you often try to find buddies this early like you did in #120?

Yes. I don't think there's any reason to not speculate.

Can I have a tiny chunk of your meta as town doing that?

[Cephrir]

Vote Count 1.3

milkshake 6

(MattP, Ghostlin, Demon, Selkies, sword_of_omens, ThAdmiral)

NicCage 1

(Belisarius)

sword_of_omens 1

(GoodCop_BadCop)

Belisarius 1

(Iecerint)

Selkies 1

(Nero Cain)

Ghostlin 1

(milkshake)

Not Voting 2

(NicCage, Miss Destroyer)

[NicCage]

mod- requesting replacement

[Miss Destroyer]

It's an initial thought.

to me, Matt's push on Milk looks like a reaction-test kinda push and Nero is just playing sheep.

Demon is a good person to take a look at as well, both him and Ghost sheeped the vote, while at the same time trying to look active. To me that reads that they are conscientious about how the look and will do whatever they can to look "active".

Selkies vote is Orci being Orci though I think I can follow his reasoning which is always a good thing, and Orci is reading Genuine as is ffery. Strong town read on both heads, so it probably means that the slot itself is town.

I actually like Omens post, it has good questions and I feel that his vote is one of the few on the wagon that has some merit.

Nero should know a hell of alot of Hydra Diss, but I don't really know what to think of him ATM. keeping him null

Thad, why are you convinced that Milk-shakes is scum?

what exactly are you seeing in Ghost's words?

[Miss Destroyer]

~Mara

[Ghostlin]

Demon is a good person to take a look at as well, both him and Ghost sheeped the vote, while at the same time trying to look active.

Did you actually read my reasoning for voting Milkshake? And I question this voting Milkshake being a reaction test, since this was taken to L-1 already. If Matt jumps off, that's one thing, but you accuse me and Demon of sheeping and don't even discuss the Nero Cain vote.

[Demon]

MattP is a null read.

I've had a town read declared at least since 66

[Demon]

Demon is a good person to take a look at as well, both him and Ghost sheeped the vote, while at the same time trying to look active. To me that reads that they are conscientious about how the look and will do whatever they can to look "active".

O...k...

[GoodCop_BadCop]

I'll never "trust" you but I also don't really think you scum so I doesn't see why my agreeing with you is a bad thing.

This premise behind this post lies in the theoretical discussion of scum being always anti-town. Taken into account the context of the post (which I already outlined) the scum-mindset that I see from the post is that Nero comes up with an excuse to why he is sheeping based on a false-premise.

[Demon]

Unvote, Vote: Iecerint

[milkshake]

Long response to my vote from Ghostlin.

Ghostlin said

Which in and of itself would be a fine suspicion at this juncture (being early in the game) except you never rebut the actual reason I voted you.

But earlier in this thread I said

Not sure if I agree that what he [Ghostlin] said counters my logic, since my logic did not assume MattP was lying or telling the truth. It accounted for both of those situations.

Note that Ghostlin's reason to vote me was

we cannot assume he's [MattP is] telling the truth or lying.

--In the second part of his post, Ghostlin mentions that MattP may in fact be a town PR. That is a valid point.

Also, you're entire reason for Sword being town is WIFOM. It's possible scum Sword is aware of the L-1 affect and did it look more townie, if it takes 'commitment', he wants to look committed in an effort to be more town.

This is true and something I in fact mentioned myself.

Also, you talk about the third and fourth person on a wagon, but you don't talk about why you do/don't suspect them and then vote/mention just me. Nice.

You were the third person. The fourth person was a shameless bandwagon with no other information provided. Perhaps we can hear from Demon in the near future and question him/her about his/her vote.

So let me ask this: who's on your scum list besides me?

I'm not sure. You have helped me move away from suggesting MattP as a lynch.

---

I don't mind Ghostlin's last post. I find it somewhat good. I still think Ghostlin is scum. I think it is quite telling that all he/she summons all of his/her resources NOW, when someone has voted him/her. Also, although the post contained good logic on points unrelated to Ghostlin's alignment, the parts pertaining to my points about alignment were not good arguments.

For these parts pertaining to alignment, see my first point above and this:

What? You don't actually rebut anything I said when I voted you, but the "fact" the decision to vote was made before the reason. I put "fact" in quotes because I had read the thread, determined the reasons to vote you, and posted and voted you. This entire argument, you see boils down to a bullshit schoolyard argument:

"You manufactured the reasons to be on my wagon before the vote."
"No, I didn't."
"Yes, you did."
"No, I didn't."
...ad infinitum

From this perspective, literally every discussion with two viewpoints is a schoolyard argument. This point from Ghostlin, intended to refute my reasons for thinking that he is scum, is vaporous.

[milkshake]

note that

"You manufactured the reasons to be on my wagon before the vote."

is I believe a typo. Should be AFTER the vote. (After the decision to vote).

Also note that the schoolyard argument only comes in to play if the second point after the initial point is... not in fact a point, but instead "No, I didn't.")

[Demon]

Perhaps we can hear from Demon in the near future and question him/her about his/her vote.

I'm here.

[Nero Cain]

@ nero: why the fuck would you change your avatar? It used to be amazing.

you don't like it man?

I'll never "trust" you but I also don't really think you scum so I doesn't see why my agreeing with you is a bad thing.

This premise behind this post lies in the theoretical discussion of scum being always anti-town. Taken into account the context of the post (which I already outlined) the scum-mindset that I see from the post is that Nero comes up with an excuse to why he is sheeping based on a false-premise.

yeah....I don't know what the fuck this says.

[Nero Cain]

opps, forgot this.

Also, Nero, do you often try to find buddies this early like you did in #120?

Yes. I don't think there's any reason to not speculate.

Can I have a tiny chunk of your meta as town doing that?

NO!!! I'm too lazy to go through my games and quote all the times that I've said "these players are buddies, etc. Its tedious and uneeded so you can either trust me or go look at my past games. Also, I've played with several of the players in this game, most notably Iece, Thad and Matt, I think they'll vouch that I don't shy away from suspecting multiple people at the same time.

[Ghostlin]

note that

"You manufactured the reasons to be on my wagon before the vote."

is I believe a typo. Should be AFTER the vote. (After the decision to vote).

Also note that the schoolyard argument only comes in to play if the second point after the initial point is... not in fact a point, but instead "No, I didn't.")

This is the only response to manufacturing the post after deciding to vote. There's no way you can tell that. It's kind of like my read on Matt P--gut is nice and all, but it's not really something you can prove or substantiate in thread.

[Ghostlin]

note that

"You manufactured the reasons to be on my wagon before the vote."

is I believe a typo. Should be AFTER the vote. (After the decision to vote).

Also note that the schoolyard argument only comes in to play if the second point after the initial point is... not in fact a point, but instead "No, I didn't.")

This is the only response to manufacturing the post after deciding to vote. There's no way you can tell that. It's kind of like my read on Matt P--gut is nice and all, but it's not really something you can prove or substantiate in thread.

[Ghostlin]

Damn fucking doublepost.

[Ghostlin]

MattP is a null read.

I've had a town read declared at least since 66

Not incongruous when you realize that my natural inclination is warring with the idea that he does it as a null. Also, gut is telling me he's town.

The brain's having issues with the stomach. I hope to have actual reasons for MattP town soon, but he's not been interacting lately.

[Ghostlin]

MattP is a null read.

I've had a town read declared at least since 66

Not incongruous when you realize that my natural inclination is warring with the idea that he does it as a null. Also, gut is telling me he's town.

The brain's having issues with the stomach. I hope to have actual reasons for MattP town soon, but he's not been interacting lately.

[Ghostlin]

God dammit. Stupid internet/mafiascum.

[milkshake]

gut is nice and all, but it's not really something you can prove or substantiate in thread.

I'm the first one to agree with you on this point. However, most mafia players that I've seen recently are strong, strong believers in voting with the gut.

I'm all about non-gut information. That said, literally the only piece of non-gut information we have to go on right now is MattP's VT claim.

So until we get more information, gut reads are all I've got. And although I like you as a player, Ghostlin, I think you're scum this game!

---

Speaking of non-gut information, I did notice that this setup has day actions! Interesting, yes? I like day actions. I'm looking forward to seeing some day actions and resultant information.

[ThAdmiral]

Thad, why are you convinced that Milk-shakes is scum?

He has shown no pro-town behaviour. He has shown anti-town behaviour.
His thinking comes from scum mindset. Lynch.

what exactly are you seeing in Ghost's words?

Is this to me as well? I don't really get what you're asking, but I think I cover this in 149.

@ nero: why the fuck would you change your avatar? It used to be amazing.

you don't like it man?

It's more that I really liked the other one. Yeah, this one is...

fine

.

[Iecerint]

I'm bothered by a lot of milkshake's playchoices (e.g., the stuff with Nero -- didn't seem like a natural/organic interaction to me from milk's side). Milk's explanation that he was exploring people's take on the MattP situation doesn't make sense to me because Nero is someone who had already been pretty clear. Milkscum trying to push a wagon from the sidelines accounts for this kind of stuff.

But I'm not sure enough to end the day, really, especially when some players have basically only posted to replace out. And I don't really want to prematurely invest too much energy into milk's wagon when I think milk is fairly scummy, anyway.

That said, I think Sword looks more questionable than Ghostlin, partly because I liked some of Ghostlin's post-milkwagon posts.

[Ghostlin]

I'm bothered by a lot of milkshake's playchoices (e.g., the stuff with Nero -- didn't seem like a natural/organic interaction to me from milk's side). Milk's explanation that he was exploring people's take on the MattP situation doesn't make sense to me because Nero is someone who had already been pretty clear. Milkscum trying to push a wagon from the sidelines accounts for this kind of stuff..

While we're at it, what do you think of Milk's current vote, Ice?