In post 88, Accountant wrote:Actually Falco seems kind of detached/strangely cautious about voting in a phase that people are throwing votes around. VOTE: Falco
@loop, this is a town vote
scum!accountant has 0 reason to move his vote from TesXX, this is town!accountant developing legitimate reads rather than finding bs to push
also accountant is honestly the only slot whose scumhunting i've actually liked
obviously the newbies are still learning and that's fine but loop's trajectory onto light was bizzare and aj has been useless
it was from the beginning, now its stuck with me as a gut read, Tes feels not townish imo
i think the way he sticked his neck out to do something attention grabbing page 1 is more likely town than not
what else besides the self-vote has pinged your gut?
think of it as reverse phycology, claiming jester and wanting to be lynched. I dont think anyone would lynch Tes for a role that didnt exist, making them "townish"
In post 96, TesXX wrote:How is light haze giving you the heebie jeebies?
He's got a captain obvious thing going on and then 92 was just an echo of Accountant's 91.
explain the captain obvious part
You're echoing Accountant. In a few posts you've said the exact same thing they did. But the reason Accountant is worried about that was the first time it was to further an attack on... TesX? Basically, you're using Accountant to give you reasons for your vote.
ok but do
you
think this is alignment indicative? if not, why clarify for loopdan what he was thinking?
also @woodboys damn a 14 CS? i couldn't even get a 9p together
So what you say is great in theory (waiting for someone to scumslip doesn't work) but in actuality that's complete bullshit especially for a newbie game. My question is, why waste time and space and confuse over half the participants by going after Accountant or Loopdan when I'm pretty sure Accountant is town? Loopdan is possible scum but it's more his push on lighthaze and his vote on Acequeen (left unexplained). The issue here is I don't know Loopdan but most SEs wouldn't need to push such an easy mislynch and risk the kinda issues that come with a lynchbait slot flipping town. He could very easily sit back and wait for later day wagons.
As for part 2, normally yes. In a newbie game, probably not. Why clarify for loopdan? Because I'm here as an educator first. In beginner games, IC/SEs hold a lot of power and games devolve very easily to 'follow the IC/SE' if they try to dominate the game. Ideally, I'd prefer the new players to find who they think is scummy and look over the reasons for their reads.
You said earlier you're pretty sure Falco and I are a team due to falco's questions, but this:
In post 71, Falco XV wrote:I'd like to hear a bit more out of Aj The Epic. He's said some things here and there, but he hasn't formulated any strong opinions so far. I liked what he said about Woodboys but I don't like how he didn't follow it up with anything further.
Doesn't come from a partner.
I see both Woodboys and Falco as possible scum. Falco has the wagon with Lighthaze but Woodboys' is for 29-36. Specifically there's nothing that MAKES a decision change in those posts for his vote on TesXX. Loopdan is the only other person I see right now for reasons above.
In post 100, AceQueen wrote:@Loopdan since you asked, what do you think of Tes? And does anyone else have thoughts on Falco?
This might seem super dumb, but honestly why don't you be more open to sharing your own thoughts? Why should you have to ask others for their own opinion on me when you could just formulate your own? I don't like what you're saying here.
This is an odd thing... Mostly because the other person to go after Acequeen was Loopdan. Granted different levels of engagement but otherwise no one's talked to Acequeen.
VOTE: FalcoXV
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:02 am
by gigabyteTroubadour
mixed feelings on aj's progression here - will respond when i'm home
input from acequeen and accountant would help
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:18 am
by Lighthaze1135
i dont like the long posts like that from aj, its too confusing to read imo
In post 122, Falco XV wrote:The problem is that you're pounding on "more discussion, more discussion" over and over again when the real issue is that people don't take sides because of a lack of discussion. If you really want to maximize discussion as you're agenda seems to not-so-subtly imply, then you should be more proactive in taking sides rather than saying "hey does anyone else have anything else to say before i jump in on this".
see i don't really like the shade you've been throwing here because what have
you
done to promote discussion?
a lot of the play here is going to be passive, yes, it's a newbie... but if you're aware that this is an issue you should be taking initiative - pressuring, voting, wagonning, doing something!
Ok so for Falco and that specific statement, it can go both ways. The main reason why I feel like it has a negative vibe is that I feel like it was a premature response. While that response can be justified for saying it in future days, it's not that relevant to d1 imo..
Also, I just feel like wanting to make most of day is town because of info you can get. Though because of the SOS, it could be scum to at least get a better idea of what the set up/how to play.
No clear SRs though
Yeah, I agree that the comment makes more sense to make later in the game - in the early parts of the day not giving reads can be beneficial because you hide from scum what you townread and scumread. now i can kind of get it because the game moved very slowly until i came in and providing any thoughts helps progress the game
HOWEVER
i feel like falco in general seems very dismissive towards most scumhunting in general which is why it goves me bad vibes — do you agree with me here or should i point it out?
Wrt deadline usage, more time is generally better for that reason, but there's a point where you have to plug your nose and get shit done. basically it's a balance of speeding up the day and using all the time that works. plus using all your time and not developing reads leads to deadline wagons that almost always hit town. i personally feel like falco wanting to use more time is nai (not indicative of alignment)
If you don't have any strong scumreads, do you have any people who you don't really understand the thought process of? That could be a starting point for finding a scumread if you have trouble.
I mean I'm not against scumhunting, I'm more or less opposed to what's coming out of it though. I'm much more used to people being super ez to scumread (as in meta tells and lack of contribution are basically the only ways to get people lynched) which is why I've been super complacent. If I were against scumhunting why would I have said anything toward Ace?
In post 96, TesXX wrote:How is light haze giving you the heebie jeebies?
He's got a captain obvious thing going on and then 92 was just an echo of Accountant's 91.
explain the captain obvious part
You're echoing Accountant. In a few posts you've said the exact same thing they did. But the reason Accountant is worried about that was the first time it was to further an attack on... TesX? Basically, you're using Accountant to give you reasons for your vote.
ok but do
you
think this is alignment indicative? if not, why clarify for loopdan what he was thinking?
also @woodboys damn a 14 CS? i couldn't even get a 9p together
So what you say is great in theory (waiting for someone to scumslip doesn't work) but in actuality that's complete bullshit especially for a newbie game. My question is, why waste time and space and confuse over half the participants by going after Accountant or Loopdan when I'm pretty sure Accountant is town? Loopdan is possible scum but it's more his push on lighthaze and his vote on Acequeen (left unexplained). The issue here is I don't know Loopdan but most SEs wouldn't need to push such an easy mislynch and risk the kinda issues that come with a lynchbait slot flipping town. He could very easily sit back and wait for later day wagons.
As for part 2, normally yes. In a newbie game, probably not. Why clarify for loopdan? Because I'm here as an educator first. In beginner games, IC/SEs hold a lot of power and games devolve very easily to 'follow the IC/SE' if they try to dominate the game. Ideally, I'd prefer the new players to find who they think is scummy and look over the reasons for their reads.
You said earlier you're pretty sure Falco and I are a team due to falco's questions, but this:
In post 71, Falco XV wrote:I'd like to hear a bit more out of Aj The Epic. He's said some things here and there, but he hasn't formulated any strong opinions so far. I liked what he said about Woodboys but I don't like how he didn't follow it up with anything further.
Doesn't come from a partner.
I see both Woodboys and Falco as possible scum. Falco has the wagon with Lighthaze but Woodboys' is for 29-36. Specifically there's nothing that MAKES a decision change in those posts for his vote on TesXX. Loopdan is the only other person I see right now for reasons above.
In post 100, AceQueen wrote:@Loopdan since you asked, what do you think of Tes? And does anyone else have thoughts on Falco?
This might seem super dumb, but honestly why don't you be more open to sharing your own thoughts? Why should you have to ask others for their own opinion on me when you could just formulate your own? I don't like what you're saying here.
This is an odd thing... Mostly because the other person to go after Acequeen was Loopdan. Granted different levels of engagement but otherwise no one's talked to Acequeen.
VOTE: FalcoXV
Wait I'm super confused, are you voting me because I went after Ace? Either you're throwing your vote around or there's some other reasoning that I'm not seeing.
In post 158, Lighthaze1135 wrote:i dont like the long posts like that from aj, its too confusing to read imo
it was from the beginning, now its stuck with me as a gut read, Tes feels not townish imo
i think the way he sticked his neck out to do something attention grabbing page 1 is more likely town than not
what else besides the self-vote has pinged your gut?
think of it as reverse phycology, claiming jester and wanting to be lynched. I dont think anyone would lynch Tes for a role that didnt exist, making them "townish"
It wasn't reverse psychology at all. That was pure RVS, not trying to look townish.
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:12 am
by AceQueen
I'm fairly suspicious of Falco right now mainly because he's been oddly defensive, like in post 121 as giga pointed out the redirect there is incredibly forced and cheap, and also he criticized me for asking others opinions instead of contributing my own he then didn't say any of his own opinions?? And now in light of recent developments I think Falco failed to address the fact that he hasn't actually given any strong opinions on anything, despite his complacency being noted as a problem he hasn't given at least a little something to clear the air about his lack of opinion by you know giving one
As far as Aj goes especially considering the recent post I don't see him as scum. I even think in post 53 his point about Woodboys waffling was valid. He hasn't been exceedingly helpful but his reasoning makes some sense to me @Giga could you explain to me a little more as to why you think he's scum?
In post 156, Aj The Epic wrote:So what you say is great in theory (waiting for someone to scumslip doesn't work) but in actuality that's complete bullshit especially for a newbie game. My question is, why waste time and space and confuse over half the participants by going after Accountant or Loopdan when I'm pretty sure Accountant is town? Loopdan is possible scum but it's more his push on lighthaze and his vote on Acequeen (left unexplained). The issue here is I don't know Loopdan but most SEs wouldn't need to push such an easy mislynch and risk the kinda issues that come with a lynchbait slot flipping town. He could very easily sit back and wait for later day wagons.
ok you're missing my point because i only quoted one thing
you also said at some point that you felt the newbies' posting at a certain point was NAI - that doesn't really seem like something someone reading the game to solve thinks at that point of time. i at least thought thought light was towntelling at that point minimum... and i understand this is a playstyle thing but i felt like none of your interactions up until that point did anything to resolve that which is why i asked about how you were scumhunting
this post is also is the first time you've outted a read on anything. if your thoughts are not in the thread there's no way for me to know you're making any progress here.
also no prodding on loopdan's push on acequeen if you don't see it?
also not sure how to feel about you saying i'm pushing bullshit about you while you seem to imply having a townread on me - help me out here? do you scumread me or am i town pushing bullshit?
In post 156, Aj The Epic wrote:As for part 2, normally yes. In a newbie game, probably not. Why clarify for loopdan? Because I'm here as an educator first. In beginner games, IC/SEs hold a lot of power and games devolve very easily to 'follow the IC/SE' if they try to dominate the game. Ideally, I'd prefer the new players to find who they think is scummy and look over the reasons for their reads.
but then you're inhibiting scumhunting
loopdan should be answering for himself because Lighthaze is asking about
his
thought process and trying to sort him that way. you're putting words into loopdan's mouth which is going to be anti-town regardless of your alignment.
i agree on your sentiment on stopping the follow-the-experienced-players but i don't follow how it's relevant here.
I could see it tbh. Newbie scum prodding their more experienced partner to act more town. it was just strange to select you of all people when i think that the idea echoed there could have been applied to anyone - hence the awkwardness.
like i think acequeen voting my slot makes a lot more sense from a town perspective when they want to hear more from a slot. falco already has a baseline for your posting at the time and none on bart. "why aj before acequeen or bart?" was basically my first thought when i saw that line
In post 156, Aj The Epic wrote:This is an odd thing... Mostly because the other person to go after Acequeen was Loopdan. Granted different levels of engagement but otherwise no one's talked to Acequeen.
why didn't you make note of this before? you posted 114 before I said anything about falco being scummy and possibly your partner so you definitely saw it, right?
how much of your vote is motivated by the fact i suggested you could be partners?
like the only thing i like about this post is that the emotional level here feels kinda legit and i feel like i slighted you a bit and i think they're things town are more likely to take personally so
In post 156, Aj The Epic wrote:So what you say is great in theory (waiting for someone to scumslip doesn't work) but in actuality that's complete bullshit especially for a newbie game. My question is, why waste time and space and confuse over half the participants by going after Accountant or Loopdan when I'm pretty sure Accountant is town? Loopdan is possible scum but it's more his push on lighthaze and his vote on Acequeen (left unexplained). The issue here is I don't know Loopdan but most SEs wouldn't need to push such an easy mislynch and risk the kinda issues that come with a lynchbait slot flipping town. He could very easily sit back and wait for later day wagons.
ok you're missing my point because i only quoted one thing
you also said at some point that you felt the newbies' posting at a certain point was NAI - that doesn't really seem like something someone reading the game to solve thinks at that point of time. i at least thought thought light was towntelling at that point minimum... and i understand this is a playstyle thing but i felt like none of your interactions up until that point did anything to resolve that which is why i asked about how you were scumhunting
this post is also is the first time you've outted a read on anything. if your thoughts are not in the thread there's no way for me to know you're making any progress here.
also no prodding on loopdan's push on acequeen if you don't see it?
also not sure how to feel about you saying i'm pushing bullshit about you while you seem to imply having a townread on me - help me out here? do you scumread me or am i town pushing bullshit?
In post 156, Aj The Epic wrote:As for part 2, normally yes. In a newbie game, probably not. Why clarify for loopdan? Because I'm here as an educator first. In beginner games, IC/SEs hold a lot of power and games devolve very easily to 'follow the IC/SE' if they try to dominate the game. Ideally, I'd prefer the new players to find who they think is scummy and look over the reasons for their reads.
but then you're inhibiting scumhunting
loopdan should be answering for himself because Lighthaze is asking about
his
thought process and trying to sort him that way. you're putting words into loopdan's mouth which is going to be anti-town regardless of your alignment.
i agree on your sentiment on stopping the follow-the-experienced-players but i don't follow how it's relevant here.
I could see it tbh. Newbie scum prodding their more experienced partner to act more town. it was just strange to select you of all people when i think that the idea echoed there could have been applied to anyone - hence the awkwardness.
like i think acequeen voting my slot makes a lot more sense from a town perspective when they want to hear more from a slot. falco already has a baseline for your posting at the time and none on bart. "why aj before acequeen or bart?" was basically my first thought when i saw that line
In post 156, Aj The Epic wrote:This is an odd thing... Mostly because the other person to go after Acequeen was Loopdan. Granted different levels of engagement but otherwise no one's talked to Acequeen.
why didn't you make note of this before? you posted 114 before I said anything about falco being scummy and possibly your partner so you definitely saw it, right?
how much of your vote is motivated by the fact i suggested you could be partners?
like the only thing i like about this post is that the emotional level here feels kinda legit and i feel like i slighted you a bit and i think they're things town are more likely to take personally so
(onto the next few posts)
can everyone list srs and trs now, i want to list this
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:20 pm
by gigabyteTroubadour
In post 159, Falco XV wrote:I mean I'm not against scumhunting, I'm more or less opposed to what's coming out of it though. I'm much more used to people being super ez to scumread (as in meta tells and lack of contribution are basically the only ways to get people lynched) which is why I've been super complacent. If I were against scumhunting why would I have said anything toward Ace?
Do you have any other tips for scumhunting?
honestly i think acequeen covered my feelings here but let me try it this way:
scumhunting is advancing town's win condition. if you're not advancing town's win condition you get lynched. tells aren't going to be handed to you on a silver platter though so you have to look into people's motives via prodding with questions and analyzing the responses. since scum already know everyone's alignment it's inherently harder to fake this.
you seem to be i guess oddly familiar with how the game works (which i take from having offsite experience) and yet doing little to advance a town wincon. now that serious accusations are coming through people should be voting for suspects or at least following people they trust.
the acequeen interaction was scummy because you're saying something negative about her slot without coming through with a push on it. do you scumread her? or were you just being snarky? without, say, a vote your motives become unclear, and unclear motives benefit scum in most circumstances benefit scum (i do think there are pro-town ways to hide reads/information but it's generally obvious when someone is doing that)
i like this suggestion too, i want to get wagons going so we can try to figure out where everyone's head is at
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:22 pm
by gigabyteTroubadour
In post 161, AceQueen wrote:@Giga could you explain to me a little more as to why you think he's scum?
tell me if my last post helps, if not i'll try to get into it
i'm a bit less sure of it now but i don't see you as a falco partner and i'm still sorting woodboys so he still makes the most sense to me as a secondary scumread if falco flips scum. falco flipping town atm would make me re-evaluate entirely
btw take scumreading people for defensiveness with a grain of salt, town has just as much reason to not want to be lynched as scum
there's obviously the issue where someone is thinking in a me-first mindset and doesn't seem interested in interactions/finding scum/progressing the game, which is when i'd be concerned
if you tend to react to pushes defensively (such as being prone to suspecting anyone pushing you), try to make sure you're focusing on why the push is bad/misreppy rather than making yourself look town.
it was from the beginning, now its stuck with me as a gut read, Tes feels not townish imo
i think the way he sticked his neck out to do something attention grabbing page 1 is more likely town than not
what else besides the self-vote has pinged your gut?
think of it as reverse phycology, claiming jester and wanting to be lynched. I dont think anyone would lynch Tes for a role that didnt exist, making them "townish"
It wasn't reverse psychology at all. That was pure RVS, not trying to look townish.
also light this is basically what i saw too, i think you're looking too deep into this (which isn't exactly bad because it shows you're scumhunting)
i think tes is could be a good wagon to revisit if we're wrong somewhere tbh
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:04 pm
by Drixx
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:20 pm
by Aj The Epic
I ain't continuing the quote wall.
Re:Me explaining for loopdan, That was entirely part of the 'explain the process' sort of deal. I think tonally you can tell from that post that there was no motive beyond explaining what Loopdan meant. There was no attempt at manipulation and no advance of a case against Lighthaze. You can call it anti-town all you want but R2R games HAVE these pieces that need explaining.
Re:Not sure how 'follow the IC applies here', it's more me not letting that exist in the first place. Am I normally this passive? No. This is definitely a playstyle difference that I do have when I play R2R games. Granted if I were scum I might still be similar because I have a policy of not misleading newbies if I can absolutely avoid it.
Re:Falco vote, mehhhh I kinda wanted to go after Woodboy but not only is there no support there (aka vanity wagon), the reason I want to pursue is also a bit cold. Is my read on him based on yours calling us partners? No. I didn't even really notice him earlier on.
Re:Acequeen and her actions, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. She DID vote for your slot, but... it doesn't really have much to do with Falco, who went after Ace for a conversation she was having with Loopdan.
btw take scumreading people for defensiveness with a grain of salt, town has just as much reason to not want to be lynched as scum
there's obviously the issue where someone is thinking in a me-first mindset and doesn't seem interested in interactions/finding scum/progressing the game, which is when i'd be concerned
if you tend to react to pushes defensively (such as being prone to suspecting anyone pushing you), try to make sure you're focusing on why the push is bad/misreppy rather than making yourself look town.
To add to this, it's normally defensiveness without any attack/read/progression outside of being defensive that is what we want to focus on.
Reasonings:
gigabyte: Not much to say here.
Lighthaze: I did say earlier that Light was being pretty scummy but I realized that it was pretty impulsive I said this in 122 I think(?) - either way I did doublepost and say that the wagon was pretty bad. Dummy not scummy IMHO
Accountant: Slight TR.
Loopdan: I can see the thought process behind the Light wagon but I don't think it's right. I'd like to hear more from him, but at the very least he has been poking around. I could see him in the tier below this, though.
AceQueen: I initially harped on her quite a bit for not being completely open to sharing her opinion, but then I realized that it was more or less just uncertainty rather than wanting to conceal one's opinion.
Woodboys: Yeah I think what he's said has made a lot of sense considering his background, but I want to know his current opinion on Tes.
Aj: Educating and playing aren't mutually exclusive things, but you're treating it as if they were. I don't see why you have to dedicate so much time to coaching and directing people when you could just be formulating your own opinions. I haven't seen much out of you, and, call it what you want, I don't see much if any justification for your vote on me.
Tes: He got to L-1 and then...just went back into the shadows. You'd think that a newb townie would step up to the plate whenever they're one vote from getting hammered, but as far as I can see, that's not happening with Tes.
mo
I did this super quickly; if I had all the time in the world I'd certainly make this more detailed. I'm going to try and elaborate more on the Aj and Tes, possibly Loopdan issues tomorrow, and I'd be happy to elaborate on anything vague.
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:49 pm
by Aj The Epic
And your vote is...?
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:13 pm
by Woodboys2339
In post 172, Falco XV wrote:nsidering his background, but I want to know his current opinion on Tes.
