Newbie 1867 - Game Over

[ofrhz]

VOTE: Harambey180
Weren't you voting for alciel because you found his posts awkward? 54 You're walking back on that now

[Huntress]

Vote Count 1.6

vulcan logician (2) - Ircher, Nachomamma8
Ventriloquist (2) - Etromin, Draynth
Harambey180 (2) - Alciel, ofrhz
Alciel (1) - Harambey180
Ircher (1) - vulcan logician
Etromin (1) - Ventriloquist

Not voting (0) -


With nine players alive, it takes five votes to lynch.

Deadline for Day One is Wednesday, 16th May, 09.00. BST, (in (expired on 2018-05-16 09:00:00)).

[Harambey180]

VOTE: Harambey180
Weren't you voting for alciel because you found his posts awkward? 54 You're walking back on that now

See post #81. I said only I voted for Alciel because his posts felt awkward back then, and then later in the game, Alciel turned out to be pretty inactive, so that became a reason for me to stick to my vote.

In case you misunderstood me:
I

initially voted

for Alciel because I felt his posts were awkward i.e. they made no sense to me.
I

sticked to my vote

on Alciel later because turned out he is being pretty inactive.

I think you thought I said that I initially voted for Alciel which is why you just posted that. I should have made clear that inactivity was one of the reasons, not the sole reason, that my vote is on Alciel right now, and that I didn't have this reason back when I first made my vote.

[Harambey180]

Although I will probably change that vote later because Alciel has already passed the 24-hour deadline after being prodded. (no posts in 3 hours 8 hours for him rn)
Suggests he isn't really inactive, just not playing at all.
OR he is gonna do a prod-dodge soon. He'll probably be replaced though if he doesn't post in the next 24 hours.

[Harambey180]

Although I will probably change that vote later because Alciel has already passed the 24-hour deadline after being prodded. (no posts in 3 hours 8 hours for him rn)
Suggests he isn't really inactive, just not playing at all.
OR he is gonna do a prod-dodge soon. He'll probably be replaced though if he doesn't post in the next 24 hours.

Which makes me think I should probably:
UNVOTE: Alciel
because in a previous game, I was also voting someone that got replaced, and the replacement straightaway asked me "why are you voting me". (just in general, replacements often say stupid things because they forget they're replacing someone that's no longer in the game)

Just look at this as a 'neutral' vote. If Alciel comes back I'll put my vote on him again. If he gets replaced, I have a feeling I'd probably vote vulcan or maybe Etromin.
vulcan because his posts still don't appear to me like he's playing that well. I want to help him improve his skills by voting him because that's an experience you'll have to learn at some point. Purely game-wise, his posts don't add that much new and he seems to follow the others around a bit. I don't quite like that.
Etromin because I really want Draynth (post 145, null read for no content) and everyone else to get a read on her. A vote on Etromin to get her active and do some useful stuff for us is probably good for now. Etromin also is a null read for me and hell I despise null-reads.

[Ircher]

Isn't like everyone in this game basically a null read right now?

V/LA Tomorrow; Be back Friday afternoon

[Harambey180]

Isn't like everyone in this game basically a null read right now?

V/LA Tomorrow; Be back Friday afternoon

We've already been more than halfway through this day (8 days passed, 6 days left). I really hope you've got some reads now; definitely some town reads, preferably some scum reads, and as few null reads as possible.

See this is why I've been pushing so hard lately to get everyone to share their reads and ask each other questions. The only one that's really done that is Draynth and I appreciate it. But there has been just one post since my last post in 12 hours. With just 6 days remaining, it's not good that players like you say they have null reads (or in your case, expect most to have lots of null reads).

@everyone: Please share your reads

a.s.a.p. Preferably within the next 24 hours. Give us your readslist so that we can ask questions and keep discussion going. As you should be able to visit and post on the MS forum at least once a day, I would like, probably expect all of you to post their readslists within 24 hours from this post. Not doing this basically means you refuse to cooperate with the rest of the Town.

For Ircher:

As you said you'll be V/LA for a day, I'll be fine if you post it slightly later than others.

I don't really like to be in the position of a team leader (because I'm like a perfectionist, I don't want anything to go wrong), but if people say they think there are a lot of null reads, I want everyone to do as much as they can to help the Town. I hope everyone agrees to sharing their readslist and ask a cpl of questions like Draynth did earlier (see post 145).

And yes, yesterday I didn't get to posting a readslist of my own. I'll do that now because I do have time for it now.

[Huntress]

I'm looking for a replacement for Alciel. If he posts before I find someone he can keep the spot.

[Harambey180]

My readslist:

ofrhz:

Town lean

. I haven't really had a feeling with any of his posts that they were really pro-Town, but after RVS, he started asking good questions that help the discussion. I don't really have much else to say. I would like a readslist from him though. Because that is the question I'm asking everyone, I don't have an additional question for ofrhz

Etromin:

Null read

. I already said this before. I think most of us have a null read on her right now. She hasn't added that much new, just spent a lot of time talking about things like vulcan's page 1 obvtown post. Like, it's ok to mention it, but most of her posts were either about this or Draynth never-explained vote.

@Etromin

Your RVS vote is still your current vote: it is on crepppy, who got replaced by Ventriloquist. Now that Ventriloquist has made some posts, are you still happy with your vote as of where it is?

Ventriloquist:

Town lean

. His post 111 was very good. Or maybe that is because I just like readslists. His reads and his other posts as well don't come across as very solid, but he's a Newbie player so I guess it's because of that. His reads just don't feel like they're right.

@Ventriloquist

Can you explain why you voted for Etromin? The reason I'm asking this is firstly, because there were other reads on your list that would be vote-worthy, and secondly, because I'm wondering if you voted her because she was voting you.

vulcan:

Scum lean

? It seems like he is improving over the course of the game, but his posts don't really help that much. He's hardly asking any questions and when he's answering those of others, it looks to me like you can interpret it in multiple ways. Besides, in post 140, he is talking about the reasons why people can vote, even though I can clearly remember me and others to have said that as well. Maybe, trying to come across as busy with scumcatching and stuff, but not really.

@vulcan

What did you want to achieve by posting post 140? What I mean by this is: what was your reason to make that post?

Alciel:

Empty read

. He still hasn't posted and I've already said numerous times how I read him. 4 days, no posts, so he's probably gonna be replaced in no time.

Draynth:

Town read

. Out of all the players, Draynth assumably is my strongest town read. He already posted a readslist and asks a lot of good questions to all the players. I think, right now, it's unnecessary to question Draynth's alignment any longer. He's 99% not going to be today's lynch so why would we?

@Draynth

No question here. Just keep doing what you've been doing.

Ircher:

Scum lean

. It could be because of being V/LA sometimes, but some of his posts look like Ircher isn't fully up-to-date and that is a letdown. Take post #89 as an example. Ircher states vulcan had been being very active whereas Draynth hasn't. This could be because Draynth posted a lot while Ircher was V/LA (iirc), and he hasn't caught up that well, but from an SE, this seems even less likely. To keep the rest short, plenty of his posts are very short and Ircher seems to change their mind occasionally.

@Ircher

Based on post #143: You said you didn't really have anything better. Do you know how to fix that? If you do, then do that, because I would like you to do that. If you're puzzled, I want to explain that the best way to get better reads and such is by asking others questions. Take action yourself and soon, you'll no longer have 'nothing better'.
Therefore, I'm scumleaning you because you're saying you don't have what you want to have yet, but you're not taking any actions to fix that, which to me, feels like you would be a suitable scumplayer that asks their scumpartner for missing information instead of asking it in this thread.

Nachomamma:

Town lean

. You mentioned that you're very rarely active to post and play the game, but hell, when you have time for it, you make good use of it. It feels like I've kind of left you in the middle for the most part of this game, just remembering you as 'the player that is very active when he's active'.

@Nachomamma

Yesterday, you said you'd get a full post out today, but that day has passed now. Please say what you wanted to say yesterday in addition to (preferably) giving a reads list.

I said I'd wait until I know if Alciel is being replaced or not, so I'm going to keep that promise. Even if he stays I think I'd probably vote either Etromin (for information purposes) or Ircher (because I scumread him and I really want to get clarified if some things he posted were thanks to being V/LA or not).

[Harambey180]

I'm looking for a replacement for Alciel. If he posts before I find someone he can keep the spot.

Alright so I should get to know within a cpl of hours whether Alciel stays or goes.

[Etromin]

Oh jeez. Somewhere along the line my email notifications must have cut out. At any rate, I'll go over the posts and compile the best readlist I can (as a noob) sometime this weekend, probably.

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry for flaking out yesterday; got some crappy news that threw me for a hell of a loop. I'll make some nice juicy posts once I'm done with errands today.

[Ventriloquist]

Ventriloquist:

Town lean

. His post 111 was very good. Or maybe that is because I just like readslists. His reads and his other posts as well don't come across as very solid, but he's a Newbie player so I guess it's because of that. His reads just don't feel like they're right.

@Ventriloquist

Can you explain why you voted for Etromin? The reason I'm asking this is firstly, because there were other reads on your list that would be vote-worthy, and secondly, because I'm wondering if you voted her because she was voting you.

Tbh I don't think there is much to read up to now. I'm guessing Draynth gets bad vibes from me for sucking up to players (in the sense of saying I agree with them & Vulcan for the joke thing) but equally I called Draynth out for not being transparent with their votes and they didn't reply at all - whilst also then voting for me without transparency. Helpful

The Etromin one was a prod, seemed like an appropriate amount of activity for a scum to have - just enough to avoid suspicion, but not to take the limelight. I didn't even realise she was voting for me at the time, I'm not that petty although I can see why you'd think a noob might do that.

[Ircher]

For Ircher: As you said you'll be V/LA for a day, I'll be fine if you post it slightly later than others.

Okay, I'm gonna be honest and state that since like the first 2 or 3 days of this game, I've had very little interest in this thread. But, anyway, I'll try to do what you requested tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

Ircher:

A good majority of Ircher's content thus far has been centered around Vulcan's joke and his interpretation of it (which he's since backed off from). As a whole, I don't have a strong opinion on it in general; I disagree that being in a scum mindset means that you're less likely to have a sense of humor and I'm not sure that there's a significant difference (or a difference I can detect, at least) in how he'd approach it as scum vs town (it makes the most sense to me that he made the incorrect interpretation regardless of alignment - there's no reason to intentionally reach so hard early in the game when you have nothing meaningful that you're getting from it).

One of the elements of Ircher's play that I think is more likely to come from town than scum is his tendency to antagonize. For example, take here where he attacked my early readslist because he expected better for an IC at this stage, or his attack on Harambey for not doing anything significant here. Neither attack really resulted in anything - they were just observations that, from a scum perspective, risked rubbing either Harambey or I the wrong way even while he had no intention of mislynching us at that point (or so it seemed).

Also, while general detachment is generally a null tell, I think the way that Ircher has been transparent about voting for people for stuff like his reasons in #89, where the only reason he says he decided to vote for Draynth over Vulcan was because of something Harambey said, and assuming that Draynth posted a lot less content than Vulcan. This is obviously a significant reach because I don't know him that well, but Ircher strikes me as the type of person who would be a bit more concerned about his image as scum and, as a result, would work towards presenting a more classically pro-town front than the one presented here.

[Nachomamma8]

Harambey:

At this point, Harambery is far and above my strongest townread based on how he approached my initial vote on him and how he's prodded the game forward since then.

First of all, I bought his transition of "I'm trying not to talk as much in order to not give scum ammo to mislynch me" to "fuck strategy" to be something that seemed very genuine and something that scum would be unlikely to post. As a general rule, I think that town are more likely to change their thought processes early and are much more likely to be scattershot than scum are; scum are working towards a specific goal and already have all of the answers, so every moment of paranoia or self-doubt has to be completely faked and is considerably more difficult to pull of convincingly than you might imagine. In this specific situation, I think that trying to talk less so people couldn't mislynch him is possibly an idea that surfaced before this game, but him posting more and more because he was getting sucked in by certain elements was something that unfolded naturally, and, in my opinion, would be a really strange and conniving thing for scum to fake.

I liked his reaction to Ircher votes here; I know that I'm slowly turning into a broken record here, but I think it's a good example of a genuine-looking flash of paranoia. It seemed pro-town of him to make a concerted effort to slow down a wagon that he thought had the potential to lead to an early mislynch, even if he overplayed the possibility a bit.

I also like his general "prodding along the game" posts here and here. While it's not something that's particularly difficult to fake as scum, the gamestate that we're looking at here is one that should make townies everywhere uncomfortable and squirmy while scum should feel relatively comfortable - posts like this shows that Harambey is uncomfortable and trying to make something happen.

[Nachomamma8]

Draynth:

At the end of the day, Draynth is probably a leaning town read, but I have more questions for him than I actually have analysis.

I like that he has a wide variety of things that he's willing to push (Etromin reaction test --> Ircher for not getting the joke --> Harambey for not voting people on the Ircher wagon --> Venriloquist for safe reads), but I don't feel particularly strongly about any of those individual pushes. I don't think that that the reaction test was particularly likely to result in anything productive, and I don't think that he let it ride long enough for it to result in anything productive. I think that pressing Harambery to vote people on the Ircher wagon is misguided; guessing that scum would jump on a wagon is not particularly useful (1/4 isn't much better than random chance of catching scum and there's no way to know if scum is on the wagon so ????).

I don't really understand his thought progression on Ircher. His initial reaction here, while it's not something that I agree with, is one that I think tracks logically. Draynth, what exactly were you misinterpreting here? You also express the possibility that Ircher is scum who backed off the vote on you because of the pushback he was getting for the vote and I don't understand what pushback you're referring to - Harambey pointed out that both you and Vulcan (the two people Ircher was considering at the time) posted a similar amount of content, and ofrhz asked why he voted you over Vulcan. Is that really enough pressure to skeeve scum out and make them back away from something? I like that you're doubting and thinking about your Ircher read, but what would help me the most is bringing more of your thought process to the surface wrt that read.

[Nachomamma8]

Vulcan:

Vulcan is a leaning scum read for me. I still don't like the way he approached Ircher for the reasons that I said before, but the foundation of the case is "he didn't vote him quickly enough" which obviously isn't revolutionary.

I recognize that his general angst in response to the push means that he probably thinks that the push against him is stupid, but that's an opinion he can hold regardless of alignment, and I don't have any particular opinions with how that unfolded.

The part of his play that I feel the most concerned about is mostly what Harambey's already pointed out; Vulcan has taken no initiative to get anything started at all. His push on Ircher happened after Draynth made the push on Ircher, his observation on Harambey is the same observation on Harambey I pointed out earlier, and... that's it.

If he's town, passiveness of this level is probably stemming from his beliefs that Day 1s are always useless (which isn't correct at all), but even then I'd expect more of an effort to get something going, especially since he doesn't seem uncomfortable at all with posting in general.

[Nachomamma8]

I need to get ready for work after I eat, so my next reads will be abbreviated, but I'll make sure that I get them out.

[Harambey180]

Ventriloquist:

Town lean

. His post 111 was very good. Or maybe that is because I just like readslists. His reads and his other posts as well don't come across as very solid, but he's a Newbie player so I guess it's because of that. His reads just don't feel like they're right.

@Ventriloquist

Can you explain why you voted for Etromin? The reason I'm asking this is firstly, because there were other reads on your list that would be vote-worthy, and secondly, because I'm wondering if you voted her because she was voting you.

Tbh I don't think there is much to read up to now. I'm guessing Draynth gets bad vibes from me for sucking up to players (in the sense of saying I agree with them & Vulcan for the joke thing) but equally I called Draynth out for not being transparent with their votes and they didn't reply at all - whilst also then voting for me without transparency. Helpful

The Etromin one was a prod, seemed like an appropriate amount of activity for a scum to have - just enough to avoid suspicion, but not to take the limelight. I didn't even realise she was voting for me at the time, I'm not that petty although I can see why you'd think a noob might do that.

Your first line just strikes me so hard. Not as alignment-indicative necessary, but just as 'how tf do you still think like that when we're already this far'...

We've already had 2/3 of the time for this day, and I think I even mentioned it yesterday as well because someone else also said 'don't most of us have null reads rn'. I think there is a chance that I don't fully understand what you say, so I'm just going to say how I see it: "Tbh I don't think there is much that we can base reads on until now".
You should have reads right now. You really should. Otherwise, be worried, because you're not getting anywhere further yourself. At this point, if you have no reads at all or find it very difficult to form reads, you're not getting anything started and there is no way you would help Town. Without town reads or scum reads, you won't be able to help form a town-block with those you trust, and help people / convince others to vote who you think is scum.

But on the other hand, I think this explains some of your earlier posts (i.e. your first posts as a replacement) in which you basically follow the crowd around. Because that's what you'd do if you're a bit puzzled atm. These two 'things' about you make sense when they're put together and I think it's genuine actually. So I'm probably gonna read you as 'noobish-Town' for now, I hope you're gonna up your game a bit.

You mentioned Draynth. Look at Draynth. Besides that vote-thingy, he made some solid posts which asked everyone to get active and that is what should happen. In most games, there is always a point in the day where I start thinking 'we should switch from the 'getting everyone active for more information'- strategy to 'start agreeing on someone to vote'- strategy', but:
If we've already had 2/3 of the day and there are still players like you that seem to struggle with forming reads, I don't think we'd be agreeing on voting someone anytime soon either.

tl;dr: Your first line I see as 'noobish-Town' if I understood it correctly. That is, because it's noobish to say out loud that you struggle with forming reads when we're already past the halfway-mark of this day. And Town, because it seems genuine.
Ventriloquist, I still miss a readslist. I really want one. Don't say you're struggling with forming reads, because I think that could also be because you're too lazy to try and form them. And if you really can't form a read on some players then ask us to help you and say why you can't form a read on him/her yourself. In the end, we need to have town reads AND scum reads, and we need to lynch the scum reads.

(p.s. sry for dis long post)

[Harambey180]

@Nachomamma

Omg, how much I like those few posts. I had a worrying feeling myself that I would struggle to read the IC again (just like last game), but these posts seem so well to me.
Your reads are long but just not long enough and you give very good reasons to explain why you think a certain way. The one thing I kinda miss is questions. You are giving reads and your reads are great and well-explained, but you're not doing anything else. Everyone can answer a question if they think hard enough about how to answer it, but not everyone can ask questions themselves that will get us in a better position. In short, the 'what do I want to do with my reads'. I am sure you want to do things (who doesn't), but it looks to me like you're not doing that.
Example: In my previous post, I not only responded to Ventriloquist, I also said to him what I would like him to do next in order to help him forming reads and helping Town in this game.

Nonetheless, I'm still happy with the way you posted your reads.

[Harambey180]

Also, the way this game has gone... if we keep playing at this pace then it's only gonna be a more and more troubling situation for those that are still here.
Besides already-prodded Alciel, vulcan has now also not posted in 2 days time, and also Draynth and ofrhz are coming close to that with both having not posted in more than 1 1/2 days...

For some comparison: in my previous game (which is finished so I am quite sure I can mention it), we had over 1000 posts on Day 1. We've had more than half of Day 1 already and there are 172 posts now. You can see how inactive this game is right now compared to that game.
It seems like all my effort to try and change this haven't really worked that much (although it worked a bit).
I think I can make the precarious claim that at least one of those four people that are near the prod deadline (or passed it already) is scum. Do with this what you want. This isn't really something that I want to push further because I'm not too confident of this claim and it's a bit prejudiced. On the other hand, if I pushed these things, that can probably get the inactive active again. #MakeNewbie1867ActiveAgain

[Draynth]

Reading now, fyi we have less than 5 days left. There's too many people lurking this game. Gotta get in here and post!

[Draynth]

vulcan logician (Scum lean)

After rereading I realised that idk what I was thinking when I voted Ircher. I think I must've read the thread at like 6am or something. It wasn't as big a deal as my first impression.

@Vulcan

Who do you currently scumread?

How does this add up to a scumlean on vulcan?

Because vulcan seemed to latch onto me pushing Ircher when in retrospect it was a bad push.

Ventriloquist:

Town lean

. His post 111 was very good. Or maybe that is because I just like readslists. His reads and his other posts as well don't come across as very solid, but he's a Newbie player so I guess it's because of that. His reads just don't feel like they're right.

@Ventriloquist

Can you explain why you voted for Etromin? The reason I'm asking this is firstly, because there were other reads on your list that would be vote-worthy, and secondly, because I'm wondering if you voted her because she was voting you.

Tbh I don't think there is much to read up to now. I'm guessing Draynth gets bad vibes from me for sucking up to players (in the sense of saying I agree with them & Vulcan for the joke thing) but equally

I called Draynth out for not being transparent with their votes and they didn't reply at all

- whilst also then voting for me without transparency. Helpful

You mean like how I answered it in 71?

Also I don't think you're "sucking up to people", I think you're trying to buddy townies and appease the masses.
You're trying to passively throw shade on me.
My vote is staying on you.

[Harambey180]

Reading now, fyi we have less than 5 days left. There's too many people lurking this game. Gotta get in here and post!

You're one of those people that's lurking too much.

Examples: Post #71 - Post #120: 2 days 4 hours
Post #120 - Post #127: 1 days 12 hours (yup, just 6 posts by others in 1 1/2 days. You're not the only lurker)
And now:
Post #145 - Post #172: 1 days 21 hours

I really see it as scummy when someone blames people for doing something that they were also doing themselves. I've heard people say 'scumslip!' in similar occasions but I don't know...
Nonetheless, putting others in the spotlights by blaming them for lurking, while Draynth himself has already lurked more than 1 1/2 days on three occasions so far, is very suspicious to me.
I take back what I said earlier about Draynth being a good townread of me. I do not take back that I said I liked his contributions, but the amount of contributions just weren't that many and he seems to lurk a lot. And now he blames others for that exact thing.

@Draynth

Can you explain why you lurked for basically 4 days between Post #71 and Post #127? The post #120 was a prodge really...
Also, why have you been so inactive? And I know of answers that are legit (like the one I gave earlier this game 'less posts = less chance for scum to shade', but also 'irl things' or 'I couldn't really think of anything to post')

P-edit: That's a perfect example of why I see him as noob-Town. Definitely the noob part and his overall posting makes me lean town on him more. I think if he were scum, his scumpartner would prevent him from saying such things, i.e. by keeping him up-to-date and such. (unless scum!Ventriloquist's scumpartner is also a lurker like Alciel). It's dumb and it's not really thought about that much, but I think it's Town.