Oh I see what you mean. I was never trying to dissuade him from scumreading you. I was just trying to get a better read on Pi. Which I did. I wasn't even thinking about you when asking it which is why I was confused at firstIn post 148, Umlaut wrote:I meant 105, yes (but not so much in itself as because it's continuing to pursue the line of discussion starting with 76). You say Pi is town so you're not claiming his reasons are disingenuous, you're just trying to dissuade him from scumreading me. I don't think I've yet done anything so obvtown as to warrant that kind of defense, so where's it coming from?In post 133, Raya36 wrote:Are you sure you meant 105? I'm a bit confusedIn post 113, Umlaut wrote: Not sure how to feel about Raya's white-knighting me in 105. It seems from the next post that they don't actually think Pi is scum so I'm not sure what else that post could be trying to accomplish. Still leaning scum on Pi notwithstanding Snow's meta point there, also Elmo after that ridiculous push on Snow. Ganster is still my favorite for town.
And to add to that I don't think you're town or scum at the moment. Just null. I'm not trying to push Pi's read in any direction regarding youIn post 152, Raya36 wrote:Oh I see what you mean. I was never trying to dissuade him from scumreading you. I was just trying to get a better read on Pi. Which I did. I wasn't even thinking about you when asking it which is why I was confused at firstIn post 148, Umlaut wrote:I meant 105, yes (but not so much in itself as because it's continuing to pursue the line of discussion starting with 76). You say Pi is town so you're not claiming his reasons are disingenuous, you're just trying to dissuade him from scumreading me. I don't think I've yet done anything so obvtown as to warrant that kind of defense, so where's it coming from?In post 133, Raya36 wrote:Are you sure you meant 105? I'm a bit confusedIn post 113, Umlaut wrote: Not sure how to feel about Raya's white-knighting me in 105. It seems from the next post that they don't actually think Pi is scum so I'm not sure what else that post could be trying to accomplish. Still leaning scum on Pi notwithstanding Snow's meta point there, also Elmo after that ridiculous push on Snow. Ganster is still my favorite for town.
I guess that makes sense. I think it's good town play to keep questioning even players you think are town but I don't necessarily expect to see town actually do it even though they should, so it wasn't clear to me you were doing that.In post 152, Raya36 wrote:Oh I see what you mean. I was never trying to dissuade him from scumreading you. I was just trying to get a better read on Pi. Which I did. I wasn't even thinking about you when asking it which is why I was confused at first
I'm glad you cleared that up for meIn post 154, Umlaut wrote: (In response to your next post, I am most definitely town or scum)
For Snow, I feel like she's taking a more cheery, airy tone with her posts that I find a little off-putting. Don't know what to think about the implication that she took for granted I'm town. I have also consistently misread her in our games, so slight paranoia plays a role as well.In post 126, Ghost Ganster wrote: Could you explain how "one of Snow and Elmo is scum" could be based on tone, please? Also, would you consider at least mentioning/quoting the posts that tonally gave you those reads (and the town ones), or even just the main one for each?
And could you answer the questions "Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?"?
You were referring to Ghost here?In post 134, Raya36 wrote: If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational
That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)
I can feel this, but it's no reason not to at least put down a vote. You've already said you feel one of Snow or Elmo are scum so how does it tip your hand to vote one of them?In post 156, Homura wrote:WRT to the second bit — my play has lessened in proactiveness since the quarantine. I tend to keep my cards close to my chest nowadays, because I lack the energy for thinking up questions that I can analyze critically. Consider this an excuse if you wish.
My vote wasn’t OMGUS, it was because I still don’t see why you find me suspicious.In post 143, Elmo TeH AzN wrote:Oooo An OMGUS vote and a vote from a person who sees me as scum
It looks to me like Raya is misinterpreting so many things that I'm left to wonder how much of that is artificial.In post 144, gibus wrote:Raya, your scumread on GG doesn't sit well with me (bad faith, like Hectic says).
If I didn't get this wrong, the reason is that they have quite a few scumreads, which is likelier to come from scum to keep their options open, or to look busy without making any committed reads?
I'm curious to see how GG will respond to this, but doesn't this apply better to someone who has quite a few nullreads?
First, the list came from a question about alignment-indicative things, which is not at all the same as scumreads. Second, unhelpful doesn't equal scum, and you had to specify it yourself so you know this as well, so your initial concern of me having too many scumreads should already be moot, and your list should go from 5 to 3 players (Elmo, Raya and piisirrational). Finally, like you mentioned as well, there were town points for 2 of those 3 as well in my list (Elmo and Raya) and this is in fact reflected in my later list of preferred lynches.In post 134, Raya36 wrote:If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:In post 117, Homura wrote:Where are you seeing "scumread nearly everyone" from? Post seems like general thoughtposting with both town and scum reads.In post 103, Raya36 wrote:It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational
That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)
This seems like it contradicts itself in a way. You say scum!piisirrational would have more likely agreed with your and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you, instead of writing what they did, which would make that post a candidate for "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", which is then (essentially) the reason you're voting for me. Also how do you still post this,In post 139, Raya36 wrote:This is a very town response. If Pi was scum I would expect them to either agree with me and scumread ghost or disagree with me and scumread me for pushing ghost or something. Instead Pi says that while something may appear scummy it doesn't mean the player is scum. This is a very towny outlook and with no scum agenda being pushed.In post 121, piisirrational wrote:I don't get why this is concerning. Can you explain? To me, it looks like Ghost is just commenting on anything he finds to be AI. Just because someone does something scummy does not mean they're scum, because just everyone, regardless of their alignment, does scummy things. If there's things Ghost finds to be especially towny he's noting that as well. That post looks like Ghost is finding things other people are doing that are scummy/towny, but it doesn't look like he's actively forcing those explanations to scumread people, and I don't think he's actually scumreading over half of the playerlist.In post 103, Raya36 wrote:It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlistIn post 85, Ghost Ganster wrote:I'd rather not say what site, sorry. It's not for mafia-related reasons, though.In post 53, Hectic wrote:Thank you! How about I only promise to troll on even posts? Odd posts will be completely, utterly, deadly serious.
What site do you come from, and do you think anything alignment-indicative has happened so far?
As for alignment-indicative things (and I'll list some things that are very borderline, here, just to further discussion, get more opinions and reactions):
-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).
-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).
-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.
-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.
-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally wouldforcemyself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD
-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.
-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.
-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.
-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagonwasstill random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?
-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.
-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).
-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.
I answer this a little above, but to add something perhaps more precise, I'd say that hinting and muddying the waters is a surprisingly effective scum strategy, in my experience (it works in real life too!In post 74, Raya36 wrote:Would you consider any of the joking to be AI in this game so far?In post 52, Ghost Ganster wrote:I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XDIn post 27, Umlaut wrote:I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?).
I already explained a bit a few posts up but essentially I'm worried that ghost is either trying to look busy without taking a solid stance on anyone or they're starting to set-up mislynches and keeping their options open.
after liking piisirrational post, which comments on how my list was of AI-things and not scumreads and that scummy things can be found in town players as well?In post 146, Raya36 wrote:You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.
Okay, but did you consider that other players can analyze the answers to your questions anyway? You don't even necessarily have to be the one doing the analyzing (though that's always good). This is a team game. If you're town, you should be playing to help yourselfIn post 156, Homura wrote:For Snow, I feel like she's taking a more cheery, airy tone with her posts that I find a little off-putting. Don't know what to think about the implication that she took for granted I'm town. I have also consistently misread her in our games, so slight paranoia plays a role as well.In post 126, Ghost Ganster wrote: Could you explain how "one of Snow and Elmo is scum" could be based on tone, please? Also, would you consider at least mentioning/quoting the posts that tonally gave you those reads (and the town ones), or even just the main one for each?
And could you answer the questions "Why aren't you voting for one of them? Why aren't you doing something to see if you can clarify your either/or opinion of them with questions, pressure and such?"?
Elmo's ISO in general feels like a collection of bad-faith pushes on players — don't enjoy her misconstruing Snow's post as overly defensive.
WRT to the second bit — my play has lessened in proactiveness since the quarantine. I tend to keep my cards close to my chest nowadays, because I lack the energy for thinking up questions that I can analyze critically. Consider this an excuse if you wish.
The fact you were scum in your game together wasn't in Homura's post. If it's true, then your point is very valid, the omission is scummy in itself, and her explanation for listing you as possible scum loses whatever little basis it already had (I'm not a huge fan of meta).In post 160, Snowblaze wrote:Surely if my tone is different to previous games when I was scum it should imply that I’mnotscum.
Could you quote/link the thoughts you agree with?In post 162, Snowblaze wrote:I want to townread Hectic on the grounds that I agree with a lot of his thoughts so far, but for some reason he seems to be attracting all of my paranoia this game.
Yes and, at the time, because I preferred lynching Homura.In post 162, Snowblaze wrote: @Ghost Ganster: do you think my lack of reads makes me more likely than average to be scum? And if so, why aren’t you voting for me?
And I also agree with his assessment of the me/Elmo interaction (despite, or perhaps because of, my bias on that matter).In post 129, Hectic wrote:
turtle's 75: Scummy tone but the reasoning is fair.
81: I get what turtle is saying here. He's saying the wagon was made using reasons from RVS, rather than the wagon being made with reasons that came after RVS - which would normally have more substance and require more justification for a vote.
To clarify: I'm scumreading you because of your SR, not because you have a lot of nullreads.In post 146, Raya36 wrote:You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.
YesIn post 157, Homura wrote:You were referring to Ghost here?In post 134, Raya36 wrote: If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational
That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)
It's pretty bad to push a policy lynch on a lurker 5 pages into a game. The game has barely even started. I honestly think Ghost's list of scumreads was setting up mislynches and if any gained traction he would push that one.In post 158, Homura wrote:Raya, thoughts on Ghost's push on me?
1. I use the word scumread since they're all reasons towards a scumread. I don't mean to imply that you scumread them. They're reasons to scumread.In post 163, Ghost Ganster wrote: First, the list came from a question about alignment-indicative things, which is not at all the same as scumreads. Second, unhelpful doesn't equal scum, and you had to specify it yourself so you know this as well, so your initial concern of me having too many scumreads should already be moot, and your list should go from 5 to 3 players (Elmo, Raya and piisirrational). Finally, like you mentioned as well, there were town points for 2 of those 3 as well in my list (Elmo and Raya) and this is in fact reflected in my later list of preferred lynches.
What do you mean with "that Homura has to get a read on"? How was she relevant in this?
I think you misinterpreted. I took a solid stance. Pi is town. I was just explaining why they arent scum when I said what scum!Pi wouldn't do.In post 163, Ghost Ganster wrote: This seems like it contradicts itself in a way. You say scum!piisirrational would have more likely agreed with your and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you, instead of writing what they did, which would make that post a candidate for "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", which is then (essentially) the reason you're voting for me. Also how do you still post this,
This is irrelevant. What Pi said was very town-indicative because no scum agenda was pushed and that was very clear. Your list of reads does not read the same.In post 163, Ghost Ganster wrote: after liking piisirrational post, which comments on how my list was of AI-things and not scumreads and that scummy things can be found in town players as well?
I can do that later when I have my laptop if you wantIn post 163, Ghost Ganster wrote: Most importantly though, Raya, instead of "being wary" (which is conveniently vague) of that list of mine, why don't you go over its points and tell us what you think about them specifically? Even if it's just "this doesn't make sense to me", "this is scummy" or "this I could agree with", wouldn't that be so much more useful for everyone than just stopping at suspecting the whole thing?
Ah, now I get the misunderstanding. Homura was the only player missing from the list exactly because she had my vote, which basically implies she was at the top of it, otherwise I wouldn't have voted for her.In post 167, Snowblaze wrote:@Ghost: ...so you preferred lynching Homura to me, and yet Homura was absent from your list of preferred lynches which you made in the same post as voting for Homura?
So you're saying that it was a typo and the sentence should have read "That's 5/8 players that Ghost has to get a read on", right? I still don't understand it. And what you later say to explain it, so this,In post 168, Raya36 wrote:YesIn post 157, Homura wrote:You were referring to Ghost here?In post 134, Raya36 wrote: If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational
That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)
doesn't make sense, either, unless I'm being stupid (which could be, sorry).I'm just starting that there are 8 players total for you to get a read on so its ?/8 people you scumread.
First, it's lynch-voting, which I explained in the post in which I did it, is also a great way to pressure the lurker in question to stop lurking and being more active. But even ignoring the fact we disagree on the premise, how do you explain that I didn't push another, then? Elmo's, for example?In post 169, Raya36 wrote:It's pretty bad to push a policy lynch on a lurker 5 pages into a game. The game has barely even started. I honestly think Ghost's list of scumreads was setting up mislynches and if any gained traction he would push that one.In post 158, Homura wrote:Raya, thoughts on Ghost's push on me?
Ok. So with point 1 you're saying that having "3 reasons towards a scumread" was too many at that point in time?In post 170, Raya36 wrote:1. I use the word scumread since they're all reasons towards a scumread. I don't mean to imply that you scumread them. They're reasons to scumread.In post 163, Ghost Ganster wrote: First, the list came from a question about alignment-indicative things, which is not at all the same as scumreads. Second, unhelpful doesn't equal scum, and you had to specify it yourself so you know this as well, so your initial concern of me having too many scumreads should already be moot, and your list should go from 5 to 3 players (Elmo, Raya and piisirrational). Finally, like you mentioned as well, there were town points for 2 of those 3 as well in my list (Elmo and Raya) and this is in fact reflected in my later list of preferred lynches.
What do you mean with "that Homura has to get a read on"? How was she relevant in this?
2. I included unhelpful because to my understanding you're using that as a reason to lynch players as well.
3. I explained why I'm still concerned about that. It's an easy way for scum to look busy without taking a stance.
Ah, sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I'm saying that piisirrational's post that you liked was more of a case of "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", exactly for the reasons that you stated you would have expected scum to say, as in "agreed with you and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you".In post 170, Raya36 wrote:I think you misinterpreted. I took a solid stance. Pi is town. I was just explaining why they arent scum when I said what scum!Pi wouldn't do.In post 163, Ghost Ganster wrote: This seems like it contradicts itself in a way. You say scum!piisirrational would have more likely agreed with your and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you, instead of writing what they did, which would make that post a candidate for "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", which is then (essentially) the reason you're voting for me. Also how do you still post this,
Are you saying that you think that scum-hunting and lynching are a scum-agenda?In post 170, Raya36 wrote:This is irrelevant. What Pi said was very town-indicative because no scum agenda was pushed and that was very clear. Your list of reads does not read the same.In post 163, Ghost Ganster wrote: after liking piisirrational post, which comments on how my list was of AI-things and not scumreads and that scummy things can be found in town players as well?
I would appreciate it, thanks.In post 170, Raya36 wrote:I can do that later when I have my laptop if you wantIn post 163, Ghost Ganster wrote: Most importantly though, Raya, instead of "being wary" (which is conveniently vague) of that list of mine, why don't you go over its points and tell us what you think about them specifically? Even if it's just "this doesn't make sense to me", "this is scummy" or "this I could agree with", wouldn't that be so much more useful for everyone than just stopping at suspecting the whole thing?
In post 172, keyenpeydee wrote:It's been over 36 hours since piisirrational posted. They have been prodded.