If it needs spelling out, for the benefit of slots who will hopefully read this whole exchange before commenting, so be it. There are 9 slots; One is Igor, who has claimed, 2 are mafia, who know who the other is. That leaves 6 slots.
Our other PR knows exactly what the setup is now, with Igors claim.
While it isn't fully conclusive, given the fact there could be an element of WIFOM, sitting here and speculating that we could be in column A, or alternatively, maybe column B, indicates you don't know which column we are in and thus are not that PR. Now the pool is reduced to 5. If MafMen calling me pointing this out as perfectly acceptable induces just
one other
slot to "gave their own opinions on what pr should do in each setup", then suddenly that pool is down to 4, and so on.
It might not be an exact science, but scum can certainly glean some clues, and those are clues they otherwise would not have if we just SHUT OUR DAMN MOUTHS.
I don't think any of the "opinions" or advice, or whatever it is that have been given are anything that even the greenest of newbie couldn't figure out on their own, if they are in the position of deciding what to do with a night action after the lim today. It's not helping them, it's only helping scum.
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:09 am
by Greeting
In post 150, Val89 wrote:If it needs spelling out, for the benefit of slots who will hopefully read this whole exchange before commenting, so be it. There are 9 slots; One is Igor, who has claimed, 2 are mafia, who know who the other is. That leaves 6 slots.
Our other PR knows exactly what the setup is now, with Igors claim.
While it isn't fully conclusive, given the fact there could be an element of WIFOM, sitting here and speculating that we could be in column A, or alternatively, maybe column B, indicates you don't know which column we are in and thus are not that PR. Now the pool is reduced to 5. If MafMen calling me pointing this out as perfectly acceptable induces just
one other
slot to "gave their own opinions on what pr should do in each setup", then suddenly that pool is down to 4, and so on.
It might not be an exact science, but scum can certainly glean some clues, and those are clues they otherwise would not have if we just SHUT OUR DAMN MOUTHS.
I don't think any of the "opinions" or advice, or whatever it is that have been given are anything that even the greenest of newbie couldn't figure out on their own, if they are in the position of deciding what to do with a night action after the lim today. It's not helping them, it's only helping scum.
Like I said before, I never claimed to be a VT. This is your interpretation, or more accurately, misinterpretation of what I said.
Unfortunately, as town, unlike the scums, we do not get a separate thread to talk without the other team in it. So this thread is all we've got. If I can use deduction and logic to help my own team win the game, then I will. Saying that I shouldn't, and I should keep my mouth shut, because otherwise the scums can get hints from my behavior too is... absurd. Literally everything in this game is open for interpretation. This game, especially during Day One, is
all interpretation
. It is only on Day Two that we can possibly get some hard info when the PRs receive their results from Night One... if they choose to share that.
Igorsprite's claim is also open for interpretation. They could be lying, but I (and I suppose the other players too) am choosing to believe them, because no one so far has counterclaimed.
Not to mention that your thesis contradicts your earlier vote on me. If I'm scum then why would I be doing this analysis here and not in the scum thread? If I'm "clumsy town" who gives out clues to the scums then why are you voting for me?
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:10 am
by MafMen
the game will never last long enough for mafia to clean those players
you said it yourself it is not an exact science so in why tf do you get this concerned over it
also no guarantee either me or greeting are 100% vts
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:16 am
by frogsfrogs
I don't know how to comment on this argument, nor should I, but I think I'm reading both Val and Greeting as very town from it.
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:16 am
by frogsfrogs
In post 133, implosion wrote:catboi's comment in 107 is sort of poignant but I can also imagine that post coming from town who feels they have reasons. I would like frogs to respond to that.
For sure! I voted for igor when I did because his explanation in 101 just looked so bad to me, and worse as I reread. I was already unsure about Igor's short posts and willingness to jump on an early wagon, thinking them both to be possibly scum behavior, but I thought this was reasonable. Then, he changed tune to the different statement "I don't want to implicate myself by posting too much". I didn't think it was the same confident townie position he was explaining himself with before and I didn't think it all added up. ...But he had his own justification + much of this must be just a playstyle thing now. :S
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:27 am
by Micc
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:33 am
by Val89
Right; Let me be absolutely crystal clear here.
If you agree with this pair, and that I am misrepresenting this issue, and that it is perfectly fine as town to speculate on what column we might be in, and that I'm doing this 'misrepresentation' because I am scum, you can signal that agreement by VOTING ME.
DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ENGAGE IN ANY ALTERNATIVE SPECULATION YOURSELF UNTIL THIS IS SORTED
You can do so after, once this situation is resolved one way or another if you still agree with these two and think it will help town.
In post 151, Greeting wrote:
Not to mention that your thesis contradicts your earlier vote on me. If I'm scum then why would I be doing this analysis here and not in the scum thread? If I'm "clumsy town" who gives out clues to the scums then why are you voting for me?
Scum already which column we are in. The problem I have with you both, and it only increases the more you try and drive us down this rabbit hole and try and confuse what is a very clear cut issue, is that by openly discussing what you think should happen if it happens to be a JK, or if it happens to be a Doc, or a FN, is you run the risk of inducing other slots to ALSO do so. You can sit there and try and an wave it away with WIFOM, and say "Well, actually maybe I am the other PR, and maybe theoretically I went to the trouble of posting all these walls and imploring all the other slots not to claim today and explaining why that was bad knowing that nobody would because I'm that PR, and I drew all this attention to myself in order to paradoxically hide myself", but if your ARE town, scum still can now go and pick over your posts tonight and have a discussion about how likley that is or not, when they
would simply not have had any clues at all
had you not said anything in the first place. Again, I am concerned about other slots being induced to comment, other slots that scum can perhaps draw inferences as to how likley they are to be actually WIFOMing based on experiance or whatever.
It's quite simple. People listen to you, and start running thier mouths, scum get info they wouldn't otherwise have and get to make a judgment call on who is WIFOMing and who isn't. They listen to me, they don't. If people think I'm running some sort of scam here, they can vote me, as long as they don't buy your argument that this is OK to speculate about, because it isn't.
But here is thing, I think at least one of you already knows that, and you are scum, and you were hoping that by speculating, you might get pseudo, or Thyn, or whomever to do the same and glean some info you might not already have.
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:36 am
by Val89
In post 153, frogsfrogs wrote:I don't know how to comment on this argument, nor should I
No, you shouldn't.
Let's hope everyone else follows your lead here and doesn't buy into the idea I'm misrepresenting the issue and it's OK to comment; whether that idea is being advanced here by scum or simply silly town. We can establish which it is as we go.
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:40 am
by Val89
In post 151, Greeting wrote:Igorsprite's claim is also open for interpretation. They could be lying, but I (and I suppose the other players too) am choosing to believe them, because no one so far has counterclaimed.
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:47 am
by Val89
For the advoidance of doubt; that speculation also extends to whether or not you beleive Igors claim, or if and when a CC might come.
DO NOT follow his lead here and make comments like this.
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:48 am
by Greeting
In post 156, Val89 wrote:Right; Let me be absolutely crystal clear here.
If you agree with this pair, and that I am misrepresenting this issue, and that it is perfectly fine as town to speculate on what column we might be in, and that I'm doing this 'misrepresentation' because I am scum, you can signal that agreement by VOTING ME.
DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ENGAGE IN ANY ALTERNATIVE SPECULATION YOURSELF UNTIL THIS IS SORTED
You can do so after, once this situation is resolved one way or another if you still agree with these two and think it will help town.
In post 151, Greeting wrote:
Not to mention that your thesis contradicts your earlier vote on me. If I'm scum then why would I be doing this analysis here and not in the scum thread? If I'm "clumsy town" who gives out clues to the scums then why are you voting for me?
Scum already which column we are in.
The problem I have with you both, and it only increases the more you try and drive us down this rabbit hole and try and confuse what is a very clear cut issue, is that by openly discussing what you think should happen if it happens to be a JK, or if it happens to be a Doc, or a FN, is you run the risk of inducing other slots to ALSO do so. You can sit there and try and an wave it away with WIFOM, and say "Well, actually maybe I am the other PR, and maybe theoretically I went to the trouble of posting all these walls and imploring all the other slots not to claim today and explaining why that was bad knowing that nobody would because I'm that PR, and I drew all this attention to myself in order to paradoxically hide myself", but if your ARE town, scum still can now go and pick over your posts tonight and have a discussion about how likley that is or not, when they
would simply not have had any clues at all
had you not said anything in the first place. Again, I am concerned about other slots being induced to comment, other slots that scum can perhaps draw inferences as to how likley they are to be actually WIFOMing based on experiance or whatever.
It's quite simple. People listen to you, and start running thier mouths, scum get info they wouldn't otherwise have and get to make a judgment call on who is WIFOMing and who isn't. They listen to me, they don't. If people think I'm running some sort of scam here, they can vote me, as long as they don't buy your argument that this is OK to speculate about, because it isn't.
But here is thing, I think at least one of you already knows that, and you are scum, and you were hoping that by speculating, you might get pseudo, or Thyn, or whomever to do the same and glean some info you might not already have.
Just... what?
This is the weirdest thing to ever happen in any mafia game I've ever been part of. And I've done around 30. Prompting people to post is common, but attempting to force people... not to post?
At this point I cannot tell if this is real or some elaborate mafia stunt which is meant to confuse town.
And also, replying to the bolded sentence, as implosion already pointed out correctly in 130, the scums do not necessarily have to know what game setup we have, if their PR is Rolecop.
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:51 am
by Val89
The bolded sentence reads "Scum already which column we are in". Not "scum already know what game setup we have".
What was that you were saying about strawmen?
This has to be deliberate at this point, right?
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:55 am
by MafMen
In post 156, Val89 wrote:Right; Let me be absolutely crystal clear here.
If you agree with this pair, and that I am misrepresenting this issue, and that it is perfectly fine as town to speculate on what column we might be in, and that I'm doing this 'misrepresentation' because I am scum, you can signal that agreement by VOTING ME.
DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ENGAGE IN ANY ALTERNATIVE SPECULATION YOURSELF UNTIL THIS IS SORTED
You can do so after, once this situation is resolved one way or another if you still agree with these two and think it will help town.
In post 151, Greeting wrote:
Not to mention that your thesis contradicts your earlier vote on me. If I'm scum then why would I be doing this analysis here and not in the scum thread? If I'm "clumsy town" who gives out clues to the scums then why are you voting for me?
Scum already which column we are in. The problem I have with you both, and it only increases the more you try and drive us down this rabbit hole and try and confuse what is a very clear cut issue, is that by openly discussing what you think should happen if it happens to be a JK, or if it happens to be a Doc, or a FN, is you run the risk of inducing other slots to ALSO do so. You can sit there and try and an wave it away with WIFOM, and say "Well, actually maybe I am the other PR, and maybe theoretically I went to the trouble of posting all these walls and imploring all the other slots not to claim today and explaining why that was bad knowing that nobody would because I'm that PR, and I drew all this attention to myself in order to paradoxically hide myself", but if your ARE town, scum still can now go and pick over your posts tonight and have a discussion about how likley that is or not, when they
would simply not have had any clues at all
had you not said anything in the first place. Again, I am concerned about other slots being induced to comment, other slots that scum can perhaps draw inferences as to how likley they are to be actually WIFOMing based on experiance or whatever.
It's quite simple. People listen to you, and start running thier mouths, scum get info they wouldn't otherwise have and get to make a judgment call on who is WIFOMing and who isn't. They listen to me, they don't. If people think I'm running some sort of scam here, they can vote me, as long as they don't buy your argument that this is OK to speculate about, because it isn't.
But here is thing, I think at least one of you already knows that, and you are scum, and you were hoping that by speculating, you might get pseudo, or Thyn, or whomever to do the same and glean some info you might not already have.
youre right it is very clear cut
there is absolutely no speculation of which setup we are in and you are still trying to drive this through
i couldnt give less of a shit about whether or not people weigh in on this, my goal in this argument was to ascertain why you believed greeting is antitown/scum over this because i believe you are wrong for it and also how you came to the conclusion that any of what they said was setup speculation
you
are the one complicating this, no one else
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:56 am
by MafMen
greeting has very clearly left it intentionally ambiguous and i havent the faintest idea how you think otherwise
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:00 am
by Greeting
In post 161, Val89 wrote:The bolded sentence reads "Scum already which column we are in". Not "scum already know what game setup we have".
They already knew this at the very start of the game though?
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:01 am
by Val89
Consider this
intent to hammer
if MafMen ever reaches E-1 at any point today.
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:02 am
by Val89
In post 164, Greeting wrote:They already knew this at the very start of the game though?
Correct. Is this a new strawman now?
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:20 am
by igorsprite
i agree with val89, i think that greeting is only complicating the situation, like when he said that my claim is open for interpretation. btw that affirmation contradicts what he said here 119
VOTE: Greeting
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:32 am
by MafMen
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:44 am
by Greeting
In post 167, igorsprite wrote:i agree with val89, i think that greeting is only complicating the situation, like when he said that my claim is open for interpretation. btw that affirmation contradicts what he said here 119
VOTE: Greeting
No, it doesn’t.
—————
I think I’ve made up my mind. Having looked back at Val’s posting history I’m choosing to believe this is a stunt which is meant to confuse town. VOTE: Val89
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:46 am
by Val89
Which bit of that history convinced you?
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:53 am
by Greeting
In post 170, Val89 wrote:Which bit of that history convinced you?
Pretty much all I've seen. I wanted to check if you do this type of stuff in other games and I didn't find anything to match. I obviously didn't read all your posts, but those I have otherwise sound pretty normal, whereas here you're acting really weird with those wild conclusions from the beginning.
And since I cannot find a logical train of thought, but a string of conclusions that come from a bizarre assumption, perhaps the only answer is that there isn't any logical train of thought, and your actual goal is to confuse and disorganise town.
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:58 am
by Val89
As I expected.
That's the second time in seven pages a read has amounted to "well, it's obvious, isn't it? Just..all of it" without anything concrete.
That's the second time in seven pages a read has amounted to "well, it's obvious, isn't it? Just..all of it" without anything concrete.
All of your posts are pushing a bizarre theory about how using logic to figure out the gameset is giving out ideas to the scums. There’s not many of them, but you’ve already managed to successfully derail the game and capture everyone’s attention.
Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:13 am
by Val89
True, you "using logic" to "figure out the gamestate" (alongside the comments regaridng igors claim), and more importantly,
opening the door for others to do so
is a big part of it, but don't think for a second I'm going to allow you to reframe my case as being that exclusively.
In post 143, Val89 wrote:I also disliked the reason given for the initial igor vote, which was...well, nothing. "I’m suspicious of igorsprite. They really don’t sound like a townie." and "ehhh. Check their posts and see for yourself." isn't a justification, and I have checked, and I don't see anything obvious that would have induced me to have voted there at that point.
I'm also trying to figure out what prompted 97, as well. It doesn't appear like anyone was actually concerned about a chaotic thought process, and it comes off as a little pre-emptive.
