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[Andresvmb]

I think telling me that I'm scummy for having my yesterday's vote end up being on Town at the End of Day is hugely ignoring the circumstances of how that wagon went down and I think you're better than that.

That’s clearly not what I’ve done but okay.

You told me a few posts ago that I'm scummy because both my EoD votes were on Town?

The feeling I have that you’re not Scum is not just because of that. You’re reducing to that because that’s easy to do.

[Andresvmb]

Ugh I need to work.

I’ll try and be back tomorrow. We need more wagons and a lot more debate.

[Nathann]

And sure, I like to leave PR claims alone as long as possible. And they were being Townie, so /shrug.

A claimed VT died with three players softing or claiming Roles, and then a player reveals they lied about their Role, but you largely ignore all of that and vote DGB despite agreeing that their ISO is messy and some of the activity could be coming from Town. Why should I TR you?

The Backup Watcher is useless without a Watcher death (might be useless period if there's no Watcher or if Scum has two Ninjas), GrandpaMo does things like that as Town (if the meta they said is to be trusted, which I assume people don't blatantly lie about even when Scum) and they're yeetbait if Town, and Kazyan opened the day effortposting which didn't seem like Scum to me. So yes, the three PR softs/claims all had reasons for either not being dead or seeming Town, and I voted DGB who kept promising content, not delivering it, placing awkwardly around claims, and not announcing its votes which did what it did. What about this is supposed to be problematic? The "some of their ISO could be Town" is laughable, show me a Scum for which that isn't the case.

[Nathann]

Yes, upon your prod, I'm changing my mind on Kazyan and wondering why they aren't dead, but I still stand behind thinking that they're Townie on play.

[Nathann]

I'm thinking there's scum in DGB/GrandpaMo, I was even wondering if it's possible that's our team. Because two people who didn't even bother to check how many votes Titus is on, when it was probably very obvious she was around Y-1 range? My gut is going against both of those, though.

VOTE: Ythan?

Pedit: nice timing. We got any elaboration behind that theory?

And why are you voting Ythan here? Like this makes no sense.

Because I have been suspicious of Ythan for, I don't know... the majority of this goddamn game?

I think telling me that I'm scummy for having my yesterday's vote end up being on Town at the End of Day is hugely ignoring the circumstances of how that wagon went down and I think you're better than that.

That’s clearly not what I’ve done but okay.

You told me a few posts ago that I'm scummy because both my EoD votes were on Town?

The feeling I have that you’re not Scum is not just because of that. You’re reducing to that because that’s easy to do.

You're joking, right? I didn't reduce your Scumread to that, 1494 was me responding point by point.

[Andresvmb]

You’re defending yourself too hard and attacking the wrong player. Go find Scum and stop getting all offended that I’m skeptical when you’ve landed consistently on Town and started the day pushing what I think is Town and placing them at E-2.

[Andresvmb]

Without much of an explanation, only to turn around and agree with some of my reasoning. Like go away.

[Nathann]

I'm defending myself because your push is bad and it feels like you keep misrepping me (even now with the landing on Town comment). I'm not attacking you, I think you're Town. And yeah, I was able to recognize that you have a point and changed my mind accordingly, fuck that I guess.

[Andresvmb]

@Ythan if you’re actually going to help, now is the time. I feel like I’m stumbling in the dark and I’m not sure I’m pushing correctly.

@DGB can you opine on the folks that pushed you early in the day?

@Enchant I’m probably giving you too much credit for being so curt. What do you think?

[Andresvmb]

How have I misrepresented you? Have your end of day votes not been on Town? Is that not an accurate summation of where your votes have landed?

[Andresvmb]

I also think DGB and Enchant are Town, and you voted one earlier today and pushed the other one towards the end of D1. Is that not where you have voted? Or what you’ve argued for?

[Andresvmb]

Now if you truly believe DGB is Scum, why would you vote Kazyan? They are certainly not aligned as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

And being Townie on play is far more important than their Role soft. There’s something that just stinks about your play and I can’t fully put my finger on it. Like your vote should be on Ythan if anything.

[Nathann]

How have I misrepresented you? Have your end of day votes not been on Town? Is that not an accurate summation of where your votes have landed?

It's correct in the most literal sense but again is missing the context. I don't see fault in my Alice vote but I see we're not gonna agree there, but saying what you're saying about my Titus vote is absolutely missing important context. She was quickhammered while I was away. Yes, my vote helped build that wagon, but it was never intended as an "I want to kill Titus" vote, it was meant as a pressure vote to kick her into higher gear. It was not supposed to kill her, and if it were up to me, it wouldn't have had as I was going to unvote when I realized there was basically no resistance.

I wasn't given a chance to change my mind before she died. There's an important difference in having opportunity to change your mind or not - hell, you were on that wagon yourself, but putting it on you would be questionable at best. Do you seriously consider my vote on her wagon to hold the same "weight" as would a vote on a Townie wagon that happened properly? The difference is kind of blaring.

[Nathann]

I also think DGB and Enchant are Town, and you voted one earlier today and pushed the other one towards the end of D1. Is that not where you have voted? Or what you’ve argued for?

Sure, I find both of them Scummy. If you have the "whoever is Scumreading someone that I find Town is automatically suspicious" mindset, then I don't know what to say.

Now if you truly believe DGB is Scum, why would you vote Kazyan? They are certainly not aligned as Scum.

I know my reads aren't perfect, and I never said I was 100% on DGB being scum. I can recognize when I may be wrong, and when it's better for the overall game to push against my own reads - I'm still reading Kazyan as Town on play, but I now believe getting their claim has value, because I'm not reading them as Town by Night events now.

And being Townie on play is far more important than their Role soft. There’s something that just stinks about your play and I can’t fully put my finger on it. Like your vote should be on Ythan if anything.

Sure, is not getting killed despite softing also more important than their Townie play? Or do you just believe that I should find it more important?

[Andresvmb]

It’s not that I’m fully convinced I have the game right btw. But the game does need to be shaken up. We’re getting too complacent, and something is not adding up.

[Andresvmb]

3 quick votes on a player that cast a pivotal vote resulting in the execution of a Town player the day prior, with limited resistance, seems strange. Maybe you guys are all Town, correct about DGB, and I’m just way off. But I also want to have some conviction that some of you are actually Town.

[Dwlee99]

Scum only having two means resistance is less likely to happen

[Dwlee99]

Game kinda unreadable rn with people not talking so maybe we should wait for people to make more content?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: GrandpaMo

I’ll park my vote here for now.

Btw if anybody gets hammered before we really have a meaningful debate here, then I’m going to force an execution there tomorrow.

[Kazyan]

Urgh, fine.

I'm a Vanilla Townie. The purpose of my "softing" on Day 1 was to get myself nightkilled instead of Jolyne--I'm not great at playing Town and I figured that the game was better off with me as a nighttime sacrifice. At first, I had no plans for what I'd actually claim if push came to shove; the whole plan was to die on Night 1. I suddenly got more confident towards the end of Day 1 once I figured out a fakeclaim: Supersaint. All I'd have to do was spin some stuff about how 92 was actually letting the mod know I understood how the role worked after a bunch of PM'd "are you sure this is Normal?" kind of questions, and then if someone hammered me, that would make them nearly conftown in an 11:2 game. Scum would have a massive incentive to avoid the hammer, but a townie could easily afford it.

But then scum didn't fall for it, and GMo made a fakeclaim. I tried to emphasize it a little more, in case scum had me as a second priority, but then scum didn't fall for it and GMo fakeclaimed again. At this point, I believe that the scumteam is informed about the near-mountainous nature of the game--and even if they weren't, they'd have learned to call bullshit. Claiming Supersaint at E-1 would thus invite scum to hammer and then bathe in the town's appreciation, so yeah.

[Kazyan]

By the way, I do buy that DGB's "pls kill me" routine at the end of Day 1 is a little townie, but it was also just...not actually a viable wagon at the time, being so close to deadline. I think it makes more sense as scum play to earn a shield from any future criticism.

[Kazyan]

The two people I want to hear from right now are gera and Enchant. geraintm has repeadly expressed sentiments about waiting until there's more to analyze, Enchant is the only person who consistently scumread Andre on Day 1. I'd like their takes on whether this argument is headed somewhere helpful or down the drain. I'll talk about it if it helps, but I just really want DGB gone.

[Kazyan]

Enchant is the only person who consistently scumread Andre on Day 1

*Besides DGB, but DGB doesn't count because it's scum

[Andresvmb]

My argument has already landed somewhere useful - I exposed the fact that your soft was garbage. So my skepticism was clearly warranted.