Mafiascum.net

In post 1497, Menalque wrote:I think datisi is town, though

y

ur posts

no but seriously I have the energy to go through ISOs à la StD like once a day at best

if you want a lot of details I'll go through it when I can, but the cliff notes version is that I believe your TR on me and have seen evidence of you solving/thinking that I think would be not necessarily out of your scumrange but I also just don't see how it would fit into a grander scheme

for instance, I don't think you needed to commit on me being town pre-coalition and I don't think you necessarily would want me as town in with you as scum, and I don't think you'd then feel the need to white knight me for cred? I'm still mulling over but it just seemed v unlikely when I was thinking about it in relation to what you've done

okay class ahh

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:I don't think it's believable that StD's reads are real. I don't think that it makes sense that StD is suddenly okay with my posts and alright with my being on the coalition only to then immediately switch back to me being scummy for fundamentally a reason that has been consistent from the start of the game.

if that reason were genuinely compelling to StD, StD would not have been okay with me going on the coalition. if it were not, and that's why he changed his mind, then his reasons for scum reading me now would be different but all we've had is critiques of Datisi's towncase and a return to the "performative" argument. along with some very non-specific "shallow ISO" comments that haven't been evidenced at all

i read this and at first i thought hmm yes this is a good point

but then i realized that im p sure i had a v similar trajectory on irrel

i scumread off some earlier posts, then near the end of coalition forming i was starting to get convinced he could be town, and then as soon as it failed i was like nope nvm. and when asked for reasons on this i mostly threw my hands up and went "ugh idk BAD VIBES" and then pointed out some of the stuff that i scumread him for originally

so i guess i can see how std as town would have a similar path on you. the most damaging part to this is 1097 where he says he has felt good about the slot, idk, even if i was feeling slightly more optimistic about irrel at end of phase i don't think i ever phrase it in that way. he does have more of a townread on you for more of the phase than i thought, so ig the trajectory is somewhat different.

but considering he said his 4 strongest townreads were (ari, skitter, irrel, datisi) the progression still makes sense to me. it feels like you're looking for normal-mafia-game-vote-progressions, but thats not what we have here. he was open to having the coalition as is, and now that it fails he needs to find who isn't actually town. so from that perspective, engaging primarily with datisi's towncase and saying why he disagrees with it actually makes a lot of sense

i also do not understand the point you're making with the performative quote thing at the end of your post

cliff notes is fine, thank you

i will let you know if i need a more thorough version when i go over what you wrote about std later tonight or tomorrow, depending on busyness and/or anxiety over the game

pedit: @mena

@fire, I need to read you again, but it's the combination of the two things I mentioned

not only is it StD's trajectory on me (where, okay, I guess you sorta raise a good point about going back to original reasons) but it's also the total lack of explanation for the reads he does have beyond waffle or non-reasons

then when it comes to me, he hasn't framed it really in a "well I just really really TR the others and so I guess you're scum by default" way, but he's been saying that he's given reasons why he thinks I'm scum etc that... just aren't really there? so, sure, attacking the town case makes sense if he thinks I'm scum... only I don't actually believe he thinks I'm scum, because he hasn't said why, other than some stuff about a shallow ISO and continuing to argue that I'm performative based on... a still-in-RVS joke? (and like one other thing later that he also claimed was performative)

those are very weak reasons if you have an actual read on someone -- and he's clearly not so SO convinced on ari/skitt/dats being all town because if he were then why make 1222?

I don't think the whole thing adds up right from the parts

(the performative thing was formatted that way for amusement, the point was that he's only basically given two reasons for why I'm scum and one of them hinges incredibly hard on me being performative, and that scum are more performative -- which dats has already rebutted for me, by pointing out I tend to like a performance as either alignment)

oh, the reason I meant to say I needed to re-read you again is that I thought I remembered actual reasons beyond just "vibez" in your reads, even if you also had "bad vibes" as a justification at points

in something that may be entirely unconvincing as a reason to not lim me but which should be considered afterwards -- I think it's +town equity for both dats and skitt to try to stick out their necks for me bc as scum you really want to assure a town lim on D1 and I don't think the towncred for being right on me if I'm flipped would be enough to narrow the pool down for them -- especially when they've both gone fairly(?) hard on it, to the point I think either would struggle to convincingly pivot tomorrow and would have to try to keep me around until elo

NK15 why did you think it was Aristeia at the start of the game day?

In post 1498, Menalque wrote:it's clearing for a me/NK15 team bc how the fuck does that team win in elo if NK15 hammers my coalition when we're both scum?

I don't know but if he hadn't you two might have just lost in the coalition phase, that's why it's damning. Why am I explaining this to you, you either genuinely didn't realize it as town or are playing dumb, it's not like I'll convince you why your play makes you scum

bleh I think menalque's entrance does feel towny actually but his actual *actions* (to try to lim outside the coalition) are pretty scummy with obvious scum motivation (e.g. the towny townies in the coalition are too towny to win against in a 1v1, both scum might be in the coalition, etc)

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:like look at the first para -- it's not addressing the substantive points of what dats is saying but instead trying to simplify it down to "empty ISO"

i did that earlier in 1210 you literally show that next

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:look at the second -- the only points actually relevant to me being scum are "1) he could easily back out of it if needed" and "4) there's a slight chance that ari/skitter are a partner that they're trying to downplay and distance from" -- 2, 3, and 5 are all just negative points trying to critique Datisi's reasons for me being town instead of saying why I'm scum

that's not correct. you're treating something that's NAI as not NAI and that's part of my problem with you. i don't see these as points critiquing datisi these are actual points against you so i'm not sure what you're trying to say

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:look at these on their own. is any single one really a believable reason for a read? like, they're all about trying to argue for why Datisi's reasons are bad but they're not advancing why I'm actually scum

it's supposed to be that it's a critique of datisi's read on you. this feels disingenuous. especially because i say things like "i think it's more likely to come from scum trying to pocket." you're choosing to ignore actual reads i have to make me look worse

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:so again, there's a shitload of qualification as he makes the vote "maybe" his iso is shallow "feels fake to me at times". it's "the vibes" that are off. so far the only actual reason that StD has given is that I've been performative at one point

the entirety of his game and "read" on me have been based around that since post 146

patently false, i said you could be scum pocketing ari/skitter. I said your post 674 looks performative too. i said your ISO is empty, which is a point you kinda made against me so I don't see how that's something you can just handwave away.

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:so what about StD's other reads? what are the reasons behind them?

ari "there's something about her posts that I just *believe*"
datisi "maybe my gut was on to something there" "remember really liking a lot of his posts"
irrelephant "just don't think is scum"
skitter closer to actual reasons but still incredibly weak and unconvincing "skitter has more energy and thread presence". "I don't have a good reason to sr skitter" "I've really liked her posts"

mena "suspects me for weird or NAI reasons" "performative entrance"

you quote one post where i summarize my reads but ignore every other post i've made where i've substantiated some of those reads.

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:because, as I've said before, if you can't give the reasons why your gut feels a certain way, then you don't have a reason for it and you're just guessing. unless you're right A LOT, in which case it should be easy to provide lots of evidence if you don't happen to already be a player known to be insanely accurate (e.g. Thor, Cabd etc)

hey, if you're town and i'm wrong on you...you don't know me, but my reads are right a lot. stop sleeping on me just because you don't know me. i'm not saying i'm the greatest mafia player ever, but quit this hero worship bullshit and open your mind to the possibility that someone you don't know could be actually good at this game.

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:the sorts of things above are exactly the type of thing scum do and say -- pick who your target is,

if you're actually town you seem to think you're supposed to be tr when you've done scummy things. once you admit that maybe you can see why i picked you
if you're scum i caught you get over it

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:don't re-evaluate

hey here's me re-evaluating

In post 1222, Save The Dragons wrote:maybe it's irrelephant or skitter or ari and i'm just lost UNVOTE: gonna think about it a sec

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:lack of actual reasons for suspicion, lack of beyond surface level thinking about that, focus on attacking reasons against why they're town instead of making your case for why they're scum

all of these are uncharitable and untrue

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:I don't think it's believable that StD's reads are real. I don't think that it makes sense that StD is suddenly okay with my posts and alright with my being on the coalition only to then immediately switch back to me being scummy for fundamentally a reason that has been consistent from the start of the game.

it's called re-evaluation

In post 1484, Menalque wrote:I don't think it's believable that StD's reads are real. I don't think that it makes sense that StD is suddenly okay with my posts and alright with my being on the coalition only to then immediately switch back to me being scummy for fundamentally a reason that has been consistent from the start of the game.

okay let's take a look at what actually happened

149 152 i suspect you.

292 i change my mind on you. i specifically say i'm okay with you on a coalition.

508 i explain the scumtell that caused me to scumread you, i no longer believe it applies because i want you in my coalition

913 is important to note you are claiming to scumread me with no reasons given, i also say "but all 3 can't be scum" hinting i am starting to suspect the people who are scumreading me without giving me reasons which was mala, fire, and you.

976 i take you out of my coalition

1097 clearly states i'm uncomfortable with you but i'm just willing to trust people

1152 coalition with you on it fails

1193 i go back to my previous suspicions of you and change my mind here. because: your read on irellephant and me shouldn't be so disparate if you're town. you call my iso shallow but provide no reasons why you're scumreading me, it reads as fake. you're reading my playstyle and judging me for it. your tone reads as fake.

you're bananas if you seriously think there's no progression, no re-evaluation, no reasons

i've given reasons for voting you throughout the game, you given reasons for voting me once just now. i've had a progression on you that makes sense where i've changed my mind over and over. it's nuanced with different factors like you scumreading me for no reason, you not being around, me worrying about not being able to read you

your case against me is full of twisting the narrative to make it look like how you want it. you're bluffing. you're just scum here.

everyone whose name is not menalque, please ignore this post for now

Subject: Micro 952 - The Coalition: ItGBSMoD [game over!]

DonCorleone wrote:

In post 1260, DkKoba wrote:all that happens if it fails if we put you on it is that we end up voting you out after we vote out wug.

Err, no, because if the coalition fails we are not [guillotining] outside of it until we hit scum

mena, can you comment on this post pls

and where you not just picked a target, not re-evaluated reads, made surface level logical leaps, and everything you're accusing me of doing? Show some receipts.

generally agree with std's response to the case more than i agree with the case

and for everyone regardless of your name:

i gotta take my tue/wed v/la this week because uni is hell and i need to sleep - will try to properly read and digest the mena/std thing tomorrow during my commute

In post 1514, Datisi wrote:everyone whose name is not menalque, please ignore this post for now

Subject: Micro 952 - The Coalition: ItGBSMoD [game over!]

DonCorleone wrote:

In post 1260, DkKoba wrote:all that happens if it fails if we put you on it is that we end up voting you out after we vote out wug.

Err, no, because if the coalition fails we are not [guillotining] outside of it until we hit scum

mena, can you comment on this post pls

Listen, you’re not gonna love this:

I changed my mind

In post 1511, Irrelephant11 wrote:

In post 1498, Menalque wrote:it's clearing for a me/NK15 team bc how the fuck does that team win in elo if NK15 hammers my coalition when we're both scum?

I don't know but if he hadn't you two might have just lost in the coalition phase, that's why it's damning. Why am I explaining this to you, you either genuinely didn't realize it as town or are playing dumb, it's not like I'll convince you why your play makes you scum

I think I was p likely going in anyway, but admittedly I wasn’t up-to-date at deadline

In post 1512, Irrelephant11 wrote:bleh I think menalque's entrance does feel towny actually but his actual *actions* (to try to lim outside the coalition) are pretty scummy with obvious scum motivation (e.g. the towny townies in the coalition are too towny to win against in a 1v1, both scum might be in the coalition, etc)

I don’t think there’s anything inherently scummy about wanting to lim outside the coalition? It’s risk/reward — bigger risk, bigger reward

Second point is mostly fair, there’s nobody here I’d *want* to 1v1 as scum, but I am, if nothing else, a practical scum player

Do you think I consider myself to have a better chance of winning a 1v1 or limming outside of the coalition?

In post 1513, Save The Dragons wrote:because: your read on irellephant and me shouldn't be so disparate if you're town. you call my iso shallow but provide no reasons why you're scumreading me, it reads as fake. you're reading my playstyle and judging me for it. your tone reads as fake.

you're bananas if you seriously think there's no progression, no re-evaluation, no reasons

i've given reasons for voting you throughout the game, you given reasons for voting me once just now. i've had a progression on you that makes sense where i've changed my mind over and over. it's nuanced with different factors like you scumreading me for no reason, you not being around, me worrying about not being able to read you

Okay I’m ignoring the rest for now because it’s long and I’m tired and I’m on my phone

This is good tho, you’re actually providing reasons now!

So essentially, I’m scum because:
(1) my read on you and relly should be similar
(2) I called your iso shallow but didn’t say why
(3) I’m reading you based on play style
(4) fake tone — blah, unless you want to expand

Am I being ungenerous or inaccurate in summarising any of those points/are there any more you’d like to add before I get back to you?

In post 1510, Irrelephant11 wrote:NK15 why did you think it was Aristeia at the start of the game day?

I already said why. The reasons from Day 1.

In post 1520, Menalque wrote: This is good tho, you’re actually providing reasons now!

In post 1520, Menalque wrote:(1) my read on you and relly should be similar

In post 1216, Save The Dragons wrote:i mean maybe i'm biased by knowing i'm town here but i still don't believe you could come to a townread on irrelephant and a scumread on me when we've had similar thoughts in the game similar stances on people and i think a similar progression of thought

In post 1520, Menalque wrote: (2) I called your iso shallow but didn’t say why

In post 1122, Save The Dragons wrote:i dunno what to do with shallow or "i think you're scum"

In post 1520, Menalque wrote: (3) I’m reading you based on play style

In post 1193, Save The Dragons wrote:looking back i'm not sure why irrelephant got pushed up and i got pushed down despite having similar takes on the game that sounds like a playstyle thing not a scum thing that bothers me a bit

In post 1520, Menalque wrote: (4) fake tone — blah, unless you want to expand

In post 1193, Save The Dragons wrote:i dunno if you want a reason for the vote maybe his iso is shallow. no but seriously i think the tone is off it feels fake to me at times

you'll notice none of those posts i quoted are 1513 so it's extremely uncharitable to be like "oh you're providing reasons NOW"

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Irrelephant 11
No one except me so far has said that this game isn't just out of skitter's or ari's scumrange but also not outside of Irrelephant's scumrange. And with the recent trajectory I wonder if Mena is right and the team is STD/Irrelephant

why the hell would irrel and i tr each other so early and mindmeld and put each other in the coalition if we were partners