[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Zorblag]

Hmm, it felt like with active play and that small a player base there were many connections to work with. Had town gotten two lynches after the correct scum lynch Troll thinks that there was almost no chance of the second mafia member making it out (which kind of be what Troll expected which was why Troll ran it how Troll did.) Perhaps the game was off because the players knew each other fairly well, the town played particularly well or the scum played particularly poorly or perhaps Troll just got lucky and got one that felt competitive for some other reason. Perhaps Troll just saw what Troll was expecting to see.

Troll would probably be fine with someone running either the reverse vengeful that mith had in mind or the modified one Troll already ran. Perhaps it could be called Nightless Vindictive if that no be a name for some other setup yet.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Beefster]

Pair Mafia

• 2 Mafia Goons
  
• 2 Treacherous Lovers (SK and Cop/Doc)
  
• 2 Siblings (No powers, both town aligned)
  
• 2 Masons
  
• 4 Single Vanilla Townies

Only the siblings and lovers are affected by suicide. The lovers' win condition is survival. Each pair has night-talk. If a doctor exists, he can't save the same target 2 nights in a row.

I am determined to get one of my own setups approved!

[Hoopla]

Rival Vigilante Mafia

Day Start, 10 players.

MAFIA

(2):

1x 1-Shot-Roleblocker
1x Goon

TOWN

(8):

2x Rival Vigilantes
6x Vanilla Townies

The Rival Vigilantes are just like regular vigs, except if they both try to kill in the same night, both kills will fail. If one vigilante dies, the other cannot shoot. The 1-shot-roleblocker was included to prevent the vigs claiming on D1 and orchestrating a kill together. The threat of one being blocked, one being killed cancels this play. It also possibly gives scum a safe vig claim on D1 if they get in trouble, as the other vigs won't know if it is a vig or scum claim, and claiming theirselves might not be the smartest vig play, as the town getting a vig shot is a real bonus, because it doesn't lower the amount of lynches allowed.

[Beefster]

I like it.

/nominate Rival Vig Mafia

[Pittbunny]

The Rival Vigilantes are just like regular vigs, except if they both try to kill in the same night, both kills will fail. If one vigilante dies, the other cannot shoot. The 1-shot-roleblocker was included to prevent the vigs claiming on D1 and orchestrating a kill together. The threat of one being blocked, one being killed cancels this play. It also possibly gives scum a safe vig claim on D1 if they get in trouble, as the other vigs won't know if it is a vig or scum claim, and claiming theirselves might not be the smartest vig play, as the town getting a vig shot is a real bonus, because it doesn't lower the amount of lynches allowed.

Mmm, I can see a way out of that mess on D1, but it's leaning towards probability rather than anything else. I can still see an early vig-claim, with the agreement that all claimed vigs may target X at night, and leaving it to fate if they pull it off or not. Of course, this tactic is still only any good if vigs have a somewhat strong read of probably scum targets. Additionally, I'm not seeing why a triple-claim on D1 sparked by a scumclaim is necessarily a bad thing, due to the above randomization and the fact that 1 of 2 scum gets outed in the process. Still, it seems like a pretty balanced game, which doesn't focus too much on role interaction (they seem to serve more as bonuses than anything else, unless cooperative play kicks in between vigs).

Is it possible for me to

Second Rival Vigilantes

? I'm not too familiar with Open Setup proceedings.

[yabbaguy]

Mafia have a >=25% chance of depriving an already shaky Town powerrole its ability on the first Night?

Aside from the possibliity of Town hitting Mafia on D1, this looks too Mafia-skewed. Also, if I was an R-Vig, what would I do? Come out and say "I'm a vig, whoever the other one is, shut up and kill tonight"? That limits Town a mere 1-shot vig for power. Scum being able to fake a vig claim rather easily also doesn't sit well. If I inhibit the claim, as does the other, it degenerates to a bizarre guessing game which I couldn't fathom seeing how to solve it.

It looks like a setup just begging to essentially become a 3-mislynches-minimum Mountainous. Trifle too much of a Mafia-tilt is my thought.

[Hoopla]

Mafia have a >=25% chance of depriving an already shaky Town powerrole its ability on the first Night?

Aside from the possibliity of Town hitting Mafia on D1, this looks too Mafia-skewed.

Also, if I was an R-Vig, what would I do? Come out and say "I'm a vig, whoever the other one is, shut up and kill tonight"?

That limits Town a mere 1-shot vig for power. Scum being able to fake a vig claim rather easily also doesn't sit well. If I inhibit the claim, as does the other, it degenerates to a bizarre guessing game which I couldn't fathom seeing how to solve it.

It looks like a setup just begging to essentially become a 3-mislynches-minimum Mountainous. Trifle too much of a Mafia-tilt is my thought.

Couldn't scum do this too?

If there is a triple vig claim at some point, the town is potentially wasting two mislynches to lynch one scum. It is quite close to mountainous as it is very likely the vigs will get 0 shots or 1 shot. There might be a better way to use this mechanic though, because it is likely only going to create the wifom outguessing game on N1. What if every townie was a Vig, and it required just one person making a shot to succeed? Breaking this down to a plan before night and organising who will shoot is foolish, because scum knowing where the bullet is coming from makes it easy to block.

[Hoopla]

Yeah, I'm not sure where I stand with that idea, so I pitch a new one instead;

Fruit Vendor Mafia

Mafia

(2)

1x 1-Shot Fruit Vendor
1x Goon

Town

(9)

1-3 Fruit Vendors
6-8 Vanilla Townies

The fruit vendor role is borrowed from SpyreX's Pick Your Power game;

Each night you may target a player. You will give them a delicious piece of fruit of your choice. The fruit does nothing.

Essentially, the Fruit Vendors are glorified named townies, with the ability to confirm themselves if they can get a couple of confirmed acts of fruit-giving. It's difficult to know what the best strategy is for the town in regards to fruit claiming, or target claiming or even a massclaim to work out how many fruit vendors there are. But massclaim seems suboptimal, especially Day 1, as scum then don't necessarily have to play the fruit game and can off the Vendors in successive nights without any of them being confirmed. The one-shot fruit giving is meant to give scum a chance at a fruit vendor claim, but only allowing it on one night means they have to pick their target wisely, or possibly claim a fruit give on a scumbuddy or a corpse for continuity.

I'd probably consider giving scum daytalking for this too.

[Max]

Threefold

3 Mafia A
3 Mafia B
3 Mafia C
1 Cop A
1 Cop B
1 Cop C
1 Universal Insane Cop
1 Doc
1 JK
1 Tracker
8 Town

Balanced/Not Balanced?

[Zajnet]

Does each mafia get a kill every night? Does the cops know which one of the 4 they are? What's a JK?

[Max]

Does each mafia get a kill every night? Does the cops know which one of the 4 they are? What's a JK?

Yes. No and Jailkeeper, blocks and protects target.

EDIT: Note that

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 Cop A
1 Cop B
1 Doc
5 Town

is considered acceptable I think with the addition of one protective role and the possibility for insanity improves odds.

Flaws: Mafia can be wiped out in one Day/Night Cycle. Town can lose lynching right each time.

[mith]

Some numbers related to the Rival Vig setup:

In a 2:(2/6) Census game (2 Mafia, 6 townies, 2 identically named townies), and assuming immediate massclaim, the scum are better off both claiming vanilla (31% for the town vs. 45% if one scum claims named townie).

The town can massclaim in the Rival Vig setup and do a bit better - if scum both claim townie, both vigs flip a coin and shoot on heads. Mafia don't know which to block, so there's a 25% chance of a kill happening - and better if the town manages to lynch the blocker D1.

The plan of having one of the vigs claim D1 so that the other can (probably) shoot gives better odds on a kill happening, but risks a fake claim by the scum. Perhaps some sort of mixed strategy is optimal: decide on a method for one vig claiming (perhaps let D1 go for a bit and then run down the list of most suspicious players until one claims vig), but then flip a coin (probably weighted, but since I'm too lazy to figure out the EVs for the various strategies I'm certainly not going to figure out what weighting to use) and have some chance of jumping into massclaim straight away.

Anyway, I expect the EV is around 35%... and probably to get that much out of the rival vig ability, the town needs to adopt a strategy which makes the ability boring.

(Pretty meh on the Fruit Vendor one...)

[yabbaguy]

Does a fruit recipient get:

You received [2] fruits last Night.

or

You received a fruit from [yabbaguy] and [Hoopla] last Night.

?

[RazorStar]

this seems like a good place to ask, so I was wondering about hammering out the kinks to this kind of set up, I'm running on a football forum. It's themed, but I'd like to know if it's balanced, too role heavy, what I can do to make sure I have a fair balance between defense and offense (Scum and protown)

Here is the roles list:

Offense:
Quarterback: Immune to kills/lynches as long as offensive line is alive. If he dies, the defense wins.
Offensive Line (More than 1): Vanilla town of the game. Only thing they have as roles is the ability to protect the QB as long as they live.
Deep Threat: Allowed to scan one player during the night phase, (Potential diva wide receiver, always gets scans wrong)
Tight End: One Shot, can forsake his vote to protect the Quarterback. One Shot, can scan a player during the night phase. One Shot, can save a player during the night phase.
Possesion Receiver: Allowed to protect one player during the night phase (Potential Bad Hands type, will kill the player he tries to protect unless it's QB with at least 1 offensive line)
Runningback: Vigilante type, can kill one player during the night phase, aiming for the defense
Offensive Coordinator: Tracker type, Can determine who one player targets during their night phase, but not their action.

Defense:
Shutdown Corner: Can choose to kidnap one player during a night phase, preventing them from voting during the next day phase
Hard Hitting Safety: As long as he is alive the defense can kill two players during the night phase
Cleanup Linebacker: He can hide the body of any player killed so his or her alignment is unknown for one day phase.
Defensive End: If he beats all offensive lineman to the vote, and keeps it, it counts as a double vote. (Day Role only, is noted by the mod but not seen by the offense that he has a double vote)
Nose Guard: Acts like a Pro-Defense Roleblocker, can stop one of the offensive players from using his role.
Defensive Coordinator: Acts like a Godfather, when cops scan him he is shown as a member of the offense, but defense lose their roles when he is killed, except for the ability to kill one player during the night phase.

The Defense acts as the informed minority, and there will only be one of each role at maximum. The Offense will fill the rest of the positions, mostly at offensive line, but 2 deep threats, or 2 possession receivers are possibilities.

Win conditions:
The Defense wins when the quarterback is dead, or the offense can not possibly win.
The Offense wins when all members of the defense are dead.

In any case, the Offense will always outnumber the defense, and I was thinking a 20-33% defense count, and if there aren't enough players to meet that I wouldn't have all the defensive roles be filled.

[Beefster]

-You're gonna need around 40 players to make it work right. There's a lot of acting mafia.
-Drop the Hard Hitting Safety. It's a bit OP.
-The QB is OP. You should probably only have 2-3 QB protectors. The rest of the Offensive Line should be 100% vanilla.

[Beefster]

I kinda like the Fruit Vendor Mafia.

Insane Inventor Mafia

• 3 Mafia Goons
  
• 1 Insane Inventor (pro-town)
  
• 9 Vanilla Townies
  
• Inventor Headstart

The Insane Inventor makes a random invention every night, and must give it to someone without an invention, not knowing what it does. It arrives on the recipient's doorstep the following twilight given only an invention name with flavor text. The recipient can use it for the rest of the game. Each invention's function remains consistent throughout the entire game.
An invention can do any of the following, determined by equal weights:
-Kill
-Roleblock
-Protect
-Investigate
-Track
-Watch

[farside22]

Fruit vendor I agree is meh and the role of fruit vendor isn't something I would have in a normal game.
As for the Rival Vig Mafia. I'm concerned about the chances for mafia in the game. I don't feel it's well balanced.
I really like Max's second idea

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 Cop A
1 Cop B
1 Doc
5 Town

It's simple but still fun in my view

[RazorStar]

should I one shot the safety role then? and not all of the mafia roles will be used every game (as I don't think I can get 40 per, prolly closer to 20 per), those are just what's there if I want to make the game fun for everyone with a number of options for everyone. Now I need to think of a way to limit the QB role.

Edit: Added the benchwarmer role to act like Vanilla Town.

A sample 20 player game might be

1 QB (unlynchable, night kill immune until OL is dead)
3 Offensive Line (Protects QB as long as they live)
1 Deep Threat (Cop)
1 Possession Wide Receiver (Doctor)
1 Tight End (1 shot cop, 1 shot doctor, 1 shot OL)
1 Offensive Coordinator (Tracker)
1 Halfback (Vigilante)
6 Bench Warmers (Vanilla Town)

1 Defensive End (Can double vote if they beat all offensive line to voting lynch)
1 Hard Hitting Safety (One shot, lets the mafia double kill)
1 Defensive Coordinator (Enables all special mafia roles, Deep threats scan him as offense)
1 Nose Guard (Mafia Roleblocker)
1 Shut Down Corner (Kidnapper)

[Beefster]

I'd probably drop the defensive end for a 20 player game. You could probably put him in with 22+ players. Online mafia tends to favor the mafia because there are no faces and gut feelings don't work for the most part.

[RazorStar]

and add a bench warmer instead? Yeah that would work. thanks beef.

[Mr. Flay]

Fruit vendor I agree is meh and the role of fruit vendor isn't something I would have in a normal game.
As for the Rival Vig Mafia. I'm concerned about the chances for mafia in the game. I don't feel it's well balanced.
I really like Max's second idea

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 Cop A
1 Cop B
1 Doc
5 Town

It's simple but still fun in my view

Isn't that essentially Twofold Mafia, from Open 44?

[Max]

Yep. I wasn't saying it was a new set-up. I was citing it as a part of my "Three-Fold" suggestion.

[The Fonz]

Cop Enabler claims cop to start? or vig enabler does so. busses his teammate the cop enabler. actually seems pretty interesting for fake claims. almost incentivizes them.

We've discussed this a few pages back... seems like the best player for the scum to claim cop with is the doc enabler. Then, if the cop counterclaims, doc enabler is lynched, cop is shot, and you're left with 2-8, with vig and what is effectively an Earl. Or use the doc enabler to cc if the actual cop claims .(In fact, best town tactic if doc enabler claims cop is probably to claim the role and the investigation FIRST THING ON DAY TWO. I don't really see a downside to this for town, unless the delay in counterclaim makes the cop not believed- then again, i suppose if this was the accepted practice, scum could hold off and cc a cop on day two as well).

Flay: Swingy? I would have thought the opposite. The fact that if town has a fair bit of power is balanced by the notion that if it lynches correctly, it loses its power roles, which makes it auto-correct against the side winning. If the cop hits either the cop or doc enabler, it has no prospect of getting any more investigations in afterward.

[SteveT]

Fruit vendor I agree is meh and the role of fruit vendor isn't something I would have in a normal game.
As for the Rival Vig Mafia. I'm concerned about the chances for mafia in the game. I don't feel it's well balanced.
I really like Max's second idea

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 Cop A
1 Cop B
1 Doc
5 Town

It's simple but still fun in my view

Isn't that essentially Twofold Mafia, from Open 44?

No, that game had one group of mafia and one group of werewolves. This one has two mafia groups instead...

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry, I meant swingy in that if you play it several times, the way the roles interact/survive is going to vastly change the balance each time. Which is the case for C9/F11/any number of other setups too, just it's not necessarily obvious in this one. I would think that it's actually swingier from the Mafia's side - if they hit the Cop N1, they're in extremely good position.