Mafiascum.net

In post 1573, Reasonably Rational wrote:I also don't think Titus asked you for a case. I did...

-Cerb

I asked for focusing not a case.

In post 1458, Reasonably Rational wrote:We are pulling our hair out trying to work with OTM.

They haven't done things that make me, for example, suspect them, but they're definitely not playing in a fashion that makes it likely they'll wield any influence anytime soon.

Titus wants thoughts sans associatives, I want a succinct case on Skybird so I can try to understand what OTM sees.

-Cerb

@Cerb here you said she wanted thoughts on Skybird sans associatives?

In post 1572, Bronya Zaychik wrote:

In post 1569, Venmar wrote:

In post 1556, Bronya Zaychik wrote:Your lack of a townread on me is annoying but I don't think you're scum. There's other people who I want to focus on first as if you are town I have faith I'll get that aha moment and we'll work together well.

~Titus

why is it annoying? neither head has really done anything too townie. if you're town i'll sort you as such later.

any comment on your #1315 and #1318, where it definitely feels like you're actually leaning on a scumread on me?

More keeping an eye on. Putting your reads as the consensus is what you and I did in Civ and we were mostly right. I think it was just too early for that yet. Townblocks happen a bit more organically but they can still be observed. Think more gun to my head town but don't do anything crazy is my read.

~Titus

Yeah no.

I veto the shit out of this.

We are not discussing Civ ever and you ignored every townread I had and they flipped town.

So yeah my scumreads sucked but damn. Like no.

Mentioning Civ brings back deep memories and makes me think you will never work with me regardless of alignment.

I humbly request you never bring up Civ ever again.

In post 1576, OnTheMark wrote:

In post 1458, Reasonably Rational wrote:We are pulling our hair out trying to work with OTM.

They haven't done things that make me, for example, suspect them, but they're definitely not playing in a fashion that makes it likely they'll wield any influence anytime soon.

Titus wants thoughts sans associatives, I want a succinct case on Skybird so I can try to understand what OTM sees.

-Cerb

@Cerb here you said she wanted thoughts on Skybird sans associatives?

Oh, I can see how you'd misunderstand that. She wanted overall thoughts, not thoughts on one specific slot, sans associatives. At least, that was my understanding, and is in line with what she was saying last night....

-Cerb

In post 1574, Bronya Zaychik wrote:

In post 1570, Reasonably Rational wrote:

In post 1568, OnTheMark wrote:

In post 1564, Bronya Zaychik wrote:@Mark, Who are you even talking to? I am asking about a readwall from you. You keep telling me later and then doing other engagements in the thread that feel like making busiwork. I'm not talking case everyone. Just like

Adam. Town, His enagement with Brian on page X was really town.

Oh now you moved the goal posts to everyone? Wow

And the Adam’s engagement with Brian on page X is an associative.

So like I still don’t know what you want?

I think the goal post was always at everyone. Maybe Titus just said she wanted thoughts without associatives, and didn't specify on everyone. *shrug* and I also think she's talking more about stuff like x+y are scum together, not this interaction x had with y makes me think they're town because it appears to be genuine scumhunting.

-Cerb

I've said readwall multiple times. Otherwise, yes. I even gave an example earlier this morning of what I want.

Mark has left several theories dangling, T and L, Inconeum, Random scum team call, me being scum under an unnamed theory. I want him to stop, sit back and think.

I am sitting back and thinking.

I am not just bound to one theory. There’s 17 players

Bound to one theory leads to tunnel Mark

@OnTheMark, The burden is on me if I care to persuade you. At the moment, I don't. I like two wagons for my VCA for later. I am looking to establish your thought process in a clear, concise manner. I'm not even controlling our vote today. This is more about communication.

The first step in communicating with anyone is to find out their desires and resistances.

As for 1572, I was talking to Venmar not you there.


~Titus

In post 1579, OnTheMark wrote:

In post 1574, Bronya Zaychik wrote:

In post 1570, Reasonably Rational wrote:

In post 1568, OnTheMark wrote:

In post 1564, Bronya Zaychik wrote:@Mark, Who are you even talking to? I am asking about a readwall from you. You keep telling me later and then doing other engagements in the thread that feel like making busiwork. I'm not talking case everyone. Just like

Adam. Town, His enagement with Brian on page X was really town.

Oh now you moved the goal posts to everyone? Wow

And the Adam’s engagement with Brian on page X is an associative.

So like I still don’t know what you want?

I think the goal post was always at everyone. Maybe Titus just said she wanted thoughts without associatives, and didn't specify on everyone. *shrug* and I also think she's talking more about stuff like x+y are scum together, not this interaction x had with y makes me think they're town because it appears to be genuine scumhunting.

-Cerb

I've said readwall multiple times. Otherwise, yes. I even gave an example earlier this morning of what I want.

Mark has left several theories dangling, T and L, Inconeum, Random scum team call, me being scum under an unnamed theory. I want him to stop, sit back and think.

I am sitting back and thinking.

I am not just bound to one theory. There’s 17 players

Bound to one theory leads to tunnel Mark

Then you can write out the conflict. Ping pong is hard as fuck to follow.

In post 1580, Bronya Zaychik wrote:@OnTheMark, The burden is on me if I care to persuade you. At the moment, I don't. I like two wagons for my VCA for later. I am looking to establish your thought process in a clear, concise manner. I'm not even controlling our vote today. This is more about communication.

The first step in communicating with anyone is to find out their desires and resistances.

As for 1572, I was talking to Venmar not you there.


~Titus

Then if you can neighborize me. I'm not spamming the fucking thread doing a monkey dance trying to guess what you want repeatedly when you just dismiss all the work I do saying you don't even care to interact with it. I'm asking the thread to scumread Skybird becuase I wholly believe they are scum and you're saying that you townread them yet don't have to interact with the case because you're not trying to persuade me. I'm not asking you to persuade me. I'm asking you to persuade the thread. Otherwise if someone doesn't interact with my case, and then townreads Skybird I'm going to give them the same response.

I'm directing arguments towards the thread for the game benefit. I am not and will not get into an argument with you that will last pages. I'm going to work on what Cerb asked since it's a direct straightforward post, it's something I can do, and it's something I can cooperate on.

When you show the willingness to work together and with what I have that already matched your previous parameters let me know. I am NOT going to do what will easily be a half a day to a literal days worth of work to display every theory I am running under just for you to discount it like you did the Sky case which took a few hours to get just how YOU like it.

Ok, well I'm not neighborizing someone (assuming I had the power) who won't follow basic requests and is clearly dodging all attempts at being helped to communicate better.

Good luck spamming the thread and being ignored because no one can understand you. I'm beginning to think you want it that way and are hiding behind drama. When town inevitably gets sick of you, they'll lynch you and you'll wonder why.

So for this we have four potential premises (include 3rd party in with "town" for now)
Option A: Skybird is scum and Venmar is scum.
Option B: Skybird is scum and Venmar is town.
Option C: Skybird is town and Venmar is scum.
Option D: Skybird is town and Venmar is town.

There is an option E of having some sort of crazy as fuck multiball thing, but the main goal of this is to work off what is most likely. Scum ask what if.
The goal of this is to get to the most likely response, so Option E is discarded if/until such a time said option exists. Afterwards, the same will be done for Iconeum and I believe that the most likely option is Skybird scum, Venmar town, Iconeum town. So that's the stated goal. If someone attacks these given points and finds a flaw, then either that flaw must be addressed or the conclusion discarded.

Now take a look at the case on 1466 in which I present that Skybird is scum. Without any counter evidence to the point, the more likely option is that Skybird is scum, and as such will delve into those points first.

In addition, we add the general premise (Premise B), that scum are in a much better position when they know what town can do. A point granted by Cerb in this thread.
I also wish to add an additional premise (Premise C), that should be straightforward, that scum generally want to empower/make their buddies look favorable without town catching on.

In 381 Skybird is supposed to be bugged by Venmar's posting and asks why Venmar thinks he has to have an ability to be useful. This directly goes against Premise C. Furthermore in 513 Skybird drops a quick one liner against Venmar and it looks like a classic chainsaw. This further violates Premise C when Skybird has not even talked about a majority of the game. Furthermore, Venmar's evil laugh gif (obviously a joke) reminds me of an MU user and I don't anticipate if someone was legit scum with a partner they would call attention to Skybird's case and brush it off at the same time with a meme.

Therefore, I posit that IF Skybird is scum, the most likely conclusion is that Venmar is town.

Now we take a look at the "if Skybird is town" options, assume my earlier case is flawed, and see if we can determine Venmar's likely alignment that way.

How did you get to Iconeum town? In 3 sentences or less please.

In post 1583, Bronya Zaychik wrote:Ok, well I'm not neighborizing someone (assuming I had the power) who won't follow basic requests and is clearly dodging all attempts at being helped to communicate better.

Good luck spamming the thread and being ignored because no one can understand you. I'm beginning to think you want it that way and are hiding behind drama. When town inevitably gets sick of you, they'll lynch you and you'll wonder why.

I humbly request you answer Chara's question. I am not doing any sort of drama or derp tunnelling or any of the labels you have given. You're making a claim I am doing things. I humbly ask that you present the court of public opinion evidence. Otherwise, your points can and should be discarded like the shaming that you are doing. I have no idea why you are attacking me rather than the points I am presenting. Most people are clearly able to follow my posts. They are just choosing to either A) agree or B) not interact with it at all. And the people who don't interact with it, I don't take stock in when they present something later. It's pretty simple. You can keep calling me a bad communicator (without evidence), but that doesn't change the fact I still don't have a clue what you want and will not bicker with you publicly. That's already been demonstrated to be harmful in prior games. So if you have a request, make it clear, then interact with what I try to do towards it, even if it's not 100% what you wanted. Because that's how we work together. One of us requests something of the other, that person attempts to do it. Then back and forth back and forth until we meet in the middle and get what we want. Not through slander and insults. So if you want to work together, stop calling me bad, and actually work together. Otherwise your posts go into the I'm ignoring you pile and only responding to Kiana, after she responds to the Skybird case more than "unimpressed".

In post 701, Iconeum wrote:Venmar, who do you read as scum in this game?
Other then voting yourself 'for mana gain', you are voting Tibor because the slot went against purposefully lynching townie D1 as a general strategy... Of all things Tibor hydra posted, that's like the one thing I really liked about him.

Because of how Iconeum questions Venmar. It's notably different than how Sky is doing it, and doesn't seem to be out of a "I want you to explain your mana situation" versus a "Hey your reads kinda seem shitty to me, talk about them with me" way.

@Mark,

Kiana townreads your frustration. I think it's self aggrandizing frustration so you don't have to put in the work to clarify your thoughts so either a) you can blame others for not listening or b) you can hide behind your obtuseness as scum. You do this repeatedly on MS game after game and wonder why no one listens. You don't take the time to listen to each person's goal in the thread and think more words solves the problem.

I would have given up on you ages ago but Kiana really thinks you're town. (I think this is the Chara question you want answered.)

I still have not seen you attempt a readwall like I requested.

You want me to engage your Skybird thoughts but all your theories are gibberish because they are not concise. My request is my ability to try and engage you.

In post 1588, OnTheMark wrote:

In post 701, Iconeum wrote:Venmar, who do you read as scum in this game?
Other then voting yourself 'for mana gain', you are voting Tibor because the slot went against purposefully lynching townie D1 as a general strategy... Of all things Tibor hydra posted, that's like the one thing I really liked about him.

Because of how Iconeum questions Venmar. It's notably different than how Sky is doing it, and doesn't seem to be out of a "I want you to explain your mana situation" versus a "Hey your reads kinda seem shitty to me, talk about them with me" way.

This is betterish. It shows that you scumread more mechanically minded posting over mental suggestions.

In post 1151, Chara wrote:i don't think you're tunneling, Mark. obviously, as i'm voting with you. this isn't even close to a derptunnel. what's Mark said that isn't legitimate, Kiana?

@Titus/Kiana actually this one.

And what exactly is not concise about my Skybird case? I make a premise Skybird has no opinions. Then cite posts that support that opinion. Cerb can see that. Yet to you it is not concise.I legit don't understand how to make something more concise than one fucking point.

Furthermore, by definition, a read wall is NOT concise.

A read wall by definition, is a list of all your thoughts on all players.
It requires mountains of data. None of which is "concise". If you want all of my reasons why I townread or scumread someone that's necessarily a shit ton of work and citing of posts and of PBPA's that most people in thread said they ignore. So are you asking for a read wall or a reads list? And if you want a reads list, that is fundamentally not what you want either as you've said you want to know all of my theories. Which means that in certain situations a player is scum or they are town. Show me an example of what you want.

In post 1590, Bronya Zaychik wrote:

In post 1588, OnTheMark wrote:

In post 701, Iconeum wrote:Venmar, who do you read as scum in this game?
Other then voting yourself 'for mana gain', you are voting Tibor because the slot went against purposefully lynching townie D1 as a general strategy... Of all things Tibor hydra posted, that's like the one thing I really liked about him.

Because of how Iconeum questions Venmar. It's notably different than how Sky is doing it, and doesn't seem to be out of a "I want you to explain your mana situation" versus a "Hey your reads kinda seem shitty to me, talk about them with me" way.

This is betterish. It shows that you scumread more mechanically minded posting over mental suggestions.

Except this is patently not true. I scumread some kinds of mechanically minded posts. Sometimes players are mechanically minded like Cerb. What matters to borrow Drixx's words is the town motivation. Of which I see none from Skybird.

In post 1592, OnTheMark wrote:Furthermore, by definition, a read wall is NOT concise.

A read wall by definition, is a list of all your thoughts on all players.
It requires mountains of data. None of which is "concise". If you want all of my reasons why I townread or scumread someone that's necessarily a shit ton of work and citing of posts and of PBPA's that most people in thread said they ignore. So are you asking for a read wall or a reads list? And if you want a reads list, that is fundamentally not what you want either as you've said you want to know all of my theories. Which means that in certain situations a player is scum or they are town. Show me an example of what you want.

I don't want PBPAs. I don't want every piece of data that says why you feel like you do. You are deliberately being obtuse.

I want you to give an initial conclusion with 2-3 sentences that details why you feel that way. An impression.

For instance,

RR is likely town due to the sheer effort he spends mediating his townreads but he was op as scum in SU2 so I have reservations.

^^^ That's what I want for each slot. You'll hit on all impirtant theories that way without a PbPA. I had given you this example before.

As for the Chara question, I feel your Iconeum thoughts do not hold up.

Except that’s not what you’re asking

You’re asking me to cover around 5 different theories in such a manner. There is almost no player I can do that to yet except Skybird. Because mafia is all relational. The reason I could find the scum in the MU game is because they made a ridiculously incriminating kill in Fuchs. Between that and divagreen being obvious.

Right now I would need a picture more than words and sentences and I am trying to figure out how to draw what is the concept of a current in a picture. It isn’t something that can be a sound byte. I push people sometimes to see the current and sometimes because I am sure they are scum. In Skybird’s case I am about 90% confident the slot is independently scum.

In post 1594, Bronya Zaychik wrote:

In post 1592, OnTheMark wrote:Furthermore, by definition, a read wall is NOT concise.

A read wall by definition, is a list of all your thoughts on all players.
It requires mountains of data. None of which is "concise". If you want all of my reasons why I townread or scumread someone that's necessarily a shit ton of work and citing of posts and of PBPA's that most people in thread said they ignore. So are you asking for a read wall or a reads list? And if you want a reads list, that is fundamentally not what you want either as you've said you want to know all of my theories. Which means that in certain situations a player is scum or they are town. Show me an example of what you want.

I don't want PBPAs. I don't want every piece of data that says why you feel like you do. You are deliberately being obtuse.

I want you to give an initial conclusion with 2-3 sentences that details why you feel that way. An impression.

For instance,

RR is likely town due to the sheer effort he spends mediating his townreads but he was op as scum in SU2 so I have reservations.

^^^ That's what I want for each slot. You'll hit on all impirtant theories that way without a PbPA. I had given you this example before.

As for the Chara question, I feel your Iconeum thoughts do not hold up.

As for the Chara question, my Iconeum answer came after and doesn’t address the core of the point. How am I doing the derptunneling you’re accusing me of?

Titus called for SoS. Mark you are doing an extraordinary thing by making Titus frustrated, this is really unusual I think you need to take a step back for a moment.

I understand that you are trying your best to work with her but it just comes across to me that you just aren't understanding what is needed of you.

Titus is absolutely correct the PbPA against Skybird making for an extremely unconvincing case, you simply paint every action of Skybird's ISO as scummy even though most, if not all, of the evidence presented is NAI. Take a look at Alisae's case for tips on what is expected of you.

I see the exact same patterns in what you're doing as what RC would do to ruin games and become scum MVP. Fortunately you don't even have half the toxicity that he has, but the aspect of stubbornness is still there and I need to nip this in the bud early before it becomes a big problem for town. One major problem is the rush to find associatives which I believe is really dumb on Day 1 because it results in absurd conclusions that effectively amount of "______ who defends Skybird is scum." where the name of the person in the blank keeps changing which is obviously wrong. You have begun to call RR and me scum for defending Skybird or not agreeing with your push which is frankly absurd and ridiculous, please take a moment to breathe and realize how far you are derp in the tunnel.

Titus wants you to take a step back and listen. You are almost going to the point of rambling and it is not something that the so-called court of public opinion will likely hold in your favour, they will be turned off. Again as Titus warned you do not want this to happen.

~Kiana

In post 1584, OnTheMark wrote:So for this we have four potential premises (include 3rd party in with "town" for now)
Option A: Skybird is scum and Venmar is scum.
Option B: Skybird is scum and Venmar is town.
Option C: Skybird is town and Venmar is scum.
Option D: Skybird is town and Venmar is town.

There is an option E of having some sort of crazy as fuck multiball thing, but the main goal of this is to work off what is most likely. Scum ask what if.
The goal of this is to get to the most likely response, so Option E is discarded if/until such a time said option exists. Afterwards, the same will be done for Iconeum and I believe that the most likely option is Skybird scum, Venmar town, Iconeum town. So that's the stated goal. If someone attacks these given points and finds a flaw, then either that flaw must be addressed or the conclusion discarded.

This is useless. Obviously these 5 possible cases apply to every single player on this list. You are too distracted on Skybird by making it such a main focus of your push that you don't even realize that the things you criticize them for are absolutely normal and not out of the ordinary. It is obvious that you are barking up the wrong tree right now and I want you to put down your pride and abandon this push. You can revisit it in later days if you must, but right now it is clear you are an at impasse and the conclusions or arguments you are going to put forth might not even be right in the first place, much less the second step of convincing anyone.

There are more scum than Skybird. Can you try finding others?

~Kiana

In post 1585, OnTheMark wrote:Now take a look at the case on 1466 in which I present that Skybird is scum. Without any counter evidence to the point, the more likely option is that Skybird is scum, and as such will delve into those points first.

In addition, we add the general premise (Premise B), that scum are in a much better position when they know what town can do. A point granted by Cerb in this thread.
I also wish to add an additional premise (Premise C), that should be straightforward, that scum generally want to empower/make their buddies look favorable without town catching on.

In 381 Skybird is supposed to be bugged by Venmar's posting and asks why Venmar thinks he has to have an ability to be useful. This directly goes against Premise C. Furthermore in 513 Skybird drops a quick one liner against Venmar and it looks like a classic chainsaw. This further violates Premise C when Skybird has not even talked about a majority of the game. Furthermore, Venmar's evil laugh gif (obviously a joke) reminds me of an MU user and I don't anticipate if someone was legit scum with a partner they would call attention to Skybird's case and brush it off at the same time with a meme.

Therefore, I posit that IF Skybird is scum, the most likely conclusion is that Venmar is town.

Now we take a look at the "if Skybird is town" options, assume my earlier case is flawed, and see if we can determine Venmar's likely alignment that way.

1466 isn't a case it's just a PbPA. It's just stating facts or translations not analysis. You aren't making any cases at the courtroom, you're just the detective finding evidence and then giving it to the lawyer. The lawyer in you has not yet arrived.

Because of this, 1585's premise is gone. The lack of a valid premise for 1585 makes it an unsound argument. Because your premises fall, everything you build around that so-called case falls. There is no case in the first place only a discovery of evidence. You aren't using that evidence to make anything meaningful, much less convincing.

Again take a look at Alisae's case to see what is expected of you.

~Kiana