Okay
Now that I'm at a fricking computer, let the wallposting commence!
First, Andy:
To start, you've got to remember that Andy is in the Gustavo slot, which is super important.
Now, first there's this:
In post 472, dramonic wrote:Omg omg omg omg omg
AAAAAAAANDYYYYYYYYYY ♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡
I dont know how any of you can question the alignment of the Gus slot.
It's a prime example of a specific kind of player that makes really clear slips as scum. Like scum has to convince themselves of their own argument before they can convince the town, and I don't think for a second that Gus thought he could be wrong. That doesn't come from a scum mind.
Which is good cuz it means we can conftown the single most wonderful person ever ♡
Currently not at home, but ill prolly vote flubs once I get back and reread. His most recent posts have been less than stellar.
This is really bad for the Gus slot. Gus was literally sitting there calling anyone who challenged them a liar, and more or less trashing on people in general.
So, what did Gus exactly think he could be wrong about? What arguments was he convincing himself about? What sort of scum has to "convince themselves of an argument?"
This is a really weak read, and by no means does it conftown anybody. Which by itself would be bad, but then there's the fact that dram was scum...
Then, when I pint out what was imo the worst part about Gus, his logical inconsistency, the response is:
This makes no sense. There's no discussion of my point here at all. It's basically saying "it doesn't matter because this person is town." Except dram has given a incredibly weak case on why Andy would be town. And he never comes back to the read. IT's just a naked "Andrius is town."
But here's the kicker: Andruis returns the favor. The entirety of D1 they naked ly have townreads on each other. Andrius NEVER explains his read on dram. Dram never goes back and soloidifies anything on Andy. and when confronted with this, ther response is immeadiately "oh, the other is town."
Which would be great. Except 1) Dram is scum, and 2) there is ZERO interaction between the two slots.
They never interact with each other. They never talk about reads or talk about each other's reads. They never follow up on the reads on the other slot. The silence is deafening.
Why would two players who are mutually townreading weach other NEVER have any interaction on reads?
And now we come to D2.
Andrius' play entering into the phase is the weakest so far. It's literally a naked push on Chick becasue she's prod dodging. There's nothing behind it. It's picking on lurkers.
Andy has no read on Chick other than she's lurking. And remember Flubber?
Lurking alone is NOT a good enough case at this point. Lurking could apply to half the game at this point.
Plus, Andy's play reads like someone fighting to et into a town position, to push the town in a certain direction. Over a lynch that is shaky at best.
And the one person who was calling him conftown was actually scum.
And the one person he was naked townreading was actually scum.
Need I go on?
Now, to MoI. Gonna break down the two worst posts:
In post 1294, MagnaofIllusion wrote: In post 1230, Inferno390 wrote:And I have been on the brunt end of this before lol.
So yeah.
@MoI: And if HitAlt is Town...?
Your statement can be applied to any claimed PR lynch on D1, ever.
And besides, there’s about 0 chance the lynch is happening now anyways. So what’s with the shade?
This post gets special attention because I want to specifically show the point where my early Townread on your slot was revoked and I want everyone to not lose this post in the spamming we have had lately. I think this post shows a significant amount of scum not Town perspective. I’ve been giving Inferno some leeway on what I thought might be innocent misreading (the one that most looms to mind is the “You are reading worst solely on being Nightkilled”) but that ship has sailed.
Let’s analyze each element of this post which I find filled with scum red-flags.
First let’s address the “And if HitAlt is Town” straw-man element. This is a pure discrediting tactic and one that doesn’t bear any resemblance to things I have actually said. I have not pushed HitAlt as scum. Nor have I suggested that claims should not be examined. Yet the whole thrust of this post is to suggest I’m willing to wagon HitAlt regardless of claim.
Now let’s deal with the logical follow-up element – “Your statement can be applied to any claim”. This is another soft discredit element. Of course my statement can. Never said or inferred it could not. However Inferno ignores the important element of analyzing claims – that powerful roles have a much higher downside if a mislynch occurs than non-powerful ones. Jailkeeper, even one with an oddball Night restriction, is a potent Town role. In a quasi role-madness game a scum JK is much more likely to get caught fake-claiming actions. Thus even if Dramonic is scum he’s very constrained to being able to justify any actions he gets to take (and frankly given the likelyhood of verification methods available to Town he is likely to be caught before N2 if he is scum) with reads. So if he even makes it to Night 2 he will have to provide reads that support his claimed action that have to stand up to scrutiny and cross confirmation. Yet Inferno paid zero consideration to this in his push to say “You have to lynch him he’s scummy and scum can have PRs”. The upsides to lynch Dram as scum when he’s a dead man walking if he is are far outweighed by the downsides of mislynching his claim as Town. And make no mistake – if he is Town that’s a real claim while if he is scum fake-claiming he’s absolutely doomed. If Dram had claimed something like 1-Shot Vouyer or whatnot he hangs as the mislynch downside is minimal. But he didn’t and Town has to consider the possibility they are wrong and weigh the risks / rewards ratios. In a Large game it makes little sense to lynch Dram based on his claim D1 no matter how strong your read is.
Lastly we end with “Why the shade” which is a double whammy.
First it is exactly the kind of buzzwording people like Taly have been decrying. The suspicions I posted
1225 are direct suspicions based on scum motivations. Yet Inferno seeks to handwave and minimize those suspicions by suggesting I’m not scum-hunting but “shading” him.
Secondly look again at 1225 and then look at that sentence and notice the huge disconnect. In 1225 my suspicion of Inferno (and worst / brass also) is based on a hypothetical – Dram being Town and being flipped in the future. Inferno is dead-set that Dram is scum. Town Inferno who believes as strongly as he does in Dram-scum shouldn’t really have such a reaction to 1225. After all I’m only positing he’s scummy in a scenario Town-Inferno doesn’t think actually exists. So why attempt to discredit my gut-reaction to that push when he thinks Dram will never flip Town? However … scum who feels they got caught making a scummy push on what they know to be a mislynch have every reason to defend themselves in a scenario that should not factor into the actual game-state if he was Town and actually reading Dram as scum.
TL-DR Summary – 1230 is full to the brim of scum-oriented posting and Inferno is now out of my Town reads.
1) I want to point out that this is a classic Chainsaw Defense. I am being attacked and my posts are being "torn apart." I. The strongest pusher on the dram wagon.
2) The "Straw Man" Element: This is not at all what I meant by HitAlt being town. My point was that if Dram is a town PR, we lynch here and here and here, and if we lynch Hit, the softed PR, we lynch... where? This is really just pitching a fit about the people on the wagon. Because we started the wagon on Dram, we should get lynched.
Also, "at least two would be scum" is pretty bs.
3)The second part of this, when summed up into a single sentence, reads as, "Let's not lynch Dram, because his role will make all clear in time." This reads suspiciously like "Keep scumPR alive as long as possible." And the accusation that I payed zero consideration to my push is nonsense. MoI is ignoring everything else about Dram because he's claimed JK. Claim analysis does not make everything else fly out the window. And pinning "Scum can have PRs" on me is nonsense-- I wasn't the one who started that, I was just continuing a good point other people had made.
4) First, shade is not a buzzword. Frick off with that. You are shading me by saying I am likely scum because I'm pushing dram, without a real case why. Second, there is another reason for me to call out your "shading." Because I'm calling you out for an attack because I'm pushing dram. I push dram, MoI responds "We should lynch in this pool because lynching PR claims is bad."
In post 1559, MagnaofIllusion wrote:And for the record - things getting down to the wire in the game with no obvious scum suspects left around?
Someone who hard pushed Dram AFTER the claim is scum. Because there was no way the lynch was going through after that claim due to all the reasons stated yesterday. So easily within reason that scum took that window to hardpress for Town cred by pushing for Dram to be lynched when it was completely safe to do so.
If I recall correctly that was basically Worst / Inferno / Brass.
So if the game somehow gets to like Day 6 or 7 with maybe 1 Mafia left don't forget this post people.
1) There are scumspects around. you and Andy. Please read above.
2) So you're saying that:
A wagon forms around Dram.
The leaders of the wagon are actually hardbussing their Scum PR.
Scum PR claims.
The wagon leaders continue to hardbus their partner.
Doesn't it make more sense at that point for the partners to back off and go after an easier lynch? Especially since they had no way of knowing that dram was going to flip? How were they going to get towncred without the flip? Were they going to shoot their ScumPR?
Then there's the aspect of, in what world does it make sense for scum to bus his partner the way I did, to the point of him claiming, AND THEN CONTINUE TO BUS HIM?
And didn't both Duck and Brass back off of the wagon not long after the claim?
And then, MoI says that if Dram flips town, there's scum in these three slots... and now he says that becasue Dram flips town, there's scum in these slots anyways?
Really?