Team Mafia 2020: Normal Game (Endgame)

[RadiantCowbells]

Like it’s insane how impossible it is to get an Ari lynch when his posting has all been terrible and his only push has been on town.

This game has just been something else from the get go with you demanding we worship your win rate. I worship the fun rate.

Your problem is that you think that you deserve to play town leader when you're a bad player.
Win rate wouldn't come into play if you wouldn't try to say that everyone must follow your reads and lynch your scumreads.

[RadiantCowbells]

I worship the fun rate.

Is losing games for no reason fun?

[RadiantCowbells]

Then I have a 80+% chance of catching scum because on ToL I had an 80+% win rate.

See? No relevance. Even if you’re right.

It’s not apples to apples there’s a lot of moving parts.

And why are you so focused on shading my quality instead of the points:
>> You’re spamming the thread making it unbearable
>> Mathematically too many townreads. There cannot be one scum in a normal.
>> Anytime anyone does anything you disagree with you explode making it impossible to coordinate.

I have work and am going to bed.

I mean. I have an 80%+ winrate and it's easy to see why. I don't believe you because you are bad at the game and that's really obvious to everyone here besides you.

[RadiantCowbells]

When/if I flip town, lynch Mathblade then the lurker pile that I listed.

If you actually flip town, I will consider revisiting my Math read

everyone should read this because it's important

[RadiantCowbells]

Well we had ~3 hours of this not being a toxic mess. Was good while it lasted.

[RadiantCowbells]

Shade? I'm pointing out that everyone's been assuming you were a protective with an inno on Mathblade when that's not true and it was the main reason to townread both of you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Assuming you're both town, why would scum have any incentive to post when they can just count on Math making another absurd push on town that makes it impossible to lynch Shos.
Like he's outed wolf. He hasn't done anything. Plum was outed at EoD yesterday. And we still can't wagon them because Math is doing his best to throw the game off a cliff.

~Why~ would scum have literally even the slightest impulse to actually post during this day phase

Your treatment of Math on these last pages is disgusting. A player that has you blacklisted got forced into the game with you. Stop and think about that for a moment. You recieved so many blacklists that the system failed. You are a gigantic asshole.

I don't think that it's a terrible thing to do to be open about the fact that a player is not a good player.
I have said nothing negative about Math as a human being. I have said that he is a shitty mafia player. He is a shitty mafia player. I won't apologize for pointing it out when it's relevant.

[RadiantCowbells]

A player that has you blacklisted got forced into the game with you.

The issue with this reasoning is that the system is flawed and there is literally only 2 games that any player can be placed in and that creates minimal wiggle room.
I know for basically 100% sure that one game has 0 people who blacklisted me and I'm ~80% sure that another does as well.

But sure, I'm a terrible person etc but that doesn't change the fact that Math's reads are bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

And, uh, I have had Mathblade blacklisted since 2016. Mathblade knows this. Mathblade still follows me into games on secret alts. I am holding no punches.
I have gone out of my way to be nice to Skitter30.

Literally the ONLY player this game that's succesfully lynched a town is YOU

Sample size: 1.

[RadiantCowbells]

And Math has only not successfully lynched town because I've gone out of my way to prevent him from lynching Town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Yes, that is in fact what happened. There were two wagons on town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Past performance in mafia is a fairly reliable indicator of future performance in broad terms.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like Mathblade has actually done some awful shit to me that you're not aware of so I would advise you hold your tongue and not act like he's the victim.

[RadiantCowbells]

Ok then make it about me being scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm sorry, but they're not. Not when it's Mathblade.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think there's something seriously wrong with your assertion that me saying that Mathblade is a bad mafia player is a personal attack.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also like, I'm not trying to trigger him. I don't care about Mathblade. This isn't about Mathblade. This is about the game.
This is about the fact that it's, like, essentially impossible to win a game with Mathblade without either policy lynching them or quarantining them and ignoring their reads.
And I'm not saying this to be mean. It's an objective fact. I can provide evidence of this fact and already have when prompted.

I've had no desire to make things personal because I'm minimally invested in this game. I don't like the fact that I feel like the most +wincon thing I can do is make sure everyone understand how important it is to ignore Mathblade and that's why I'd rather simply not be in a game with them. But I am, and it is the most +wincon thing I can do.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like that may sound like something someone says to be an asshole but I have very little malice in saying it outside of it being something town _needs_ to know.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think TW is above average for sure. If my goal was to disrupt town unity with a mislynch as scum though it would have been Skitter 100% of the time.
This doesn't necessarily sound the greatest given our altercation D1, but there you go. And I could just as easily have lynched Ari during the middle of the day.

You made this about him. I'm calling you out as scum. Your only rethoric is pointed at how bad of a player Math supposedly is.
You are turning it specifically away from the game itself.

If you honestly believe that for you to win you have to get rid of Math, you would have done so on D1.

You do recall that I tried to lynch Math D1, right? And everyone got super super mad at me and I just didn't feel like making the game a toxic wasteland?

[RadiantCowbells]

u made this about him. I'm calling you out as scum. Your only rethoric is pointed at how bad of a player Math supposedly is.
You are turning it specifically away from the game itself.

That's because I'm not actually arguing that I'm town because no case has been presented for why I'm scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also my getting lynched today... really wouldn't upset me all that much?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like if you sincerely want to engage with me on whether I'm scum or not and have a case that you want me to address I'll address it but I kinda feel like you've just decided I'm scum regardless of alignment and your vote isn't changing.

[RadiantCowbells]

You were trying to break the townblock by going after Math and me 'why was i even townreading there' 'it's so Obvious omg'
When that failed you turned your attention to an 'obvious scum solve' in ALL of the inactives.

Okay so I'll start with this one first.

1) I was actually the one that dragged Aristophanes at least back to Shos. I also told Skitter30 I wasn't interested in leading on Math but would consider it if she was interested.
You're acting like the order of operations here is something involving me trying to push something then backing off because it became impossible.
This is not true. We have at least 3 people willing to vote Mathblade if I want to do that and most of the thread hasn't responded. I wasn't interested because... it didn't feel like it was a likely scum hit.

Second: Yeah, that's kind of what happens in this situation?
I've gone after every single person in the active pool in some way to try to prod a reaction that might indicate that they're scum. Everyone keeps, like, not being scummy?
So once I go after all the active people and not one of them actually feels like scum, isn't it the natural followup that I'm like ok scum are all lurking?

[RadiantCowbells]

You pushed Ari up until close to L-1 and when the heat really turned on you derailed it yourself, destroying much of the gamestate while at it.

You pushed TW for trying to policy lynch you, supposedly with backup from your team. 'confscum' you called him. Taking complete control over the gamestate and took out one of the most valuable town day-assets we have.

Bluntly, I do not understand what your point is regarding the Ari situation. I wagoned someone, NSG said they were a bad lynch, I switched wagons.

Regarding Duckling, I don't know. Would you townread someone who called you out for not being able to 'spin a narrative in real time' when they'd seen you do it as town a billion times? Would you townread someone who claimed that you 'claimed investigative to have an excuse to not get nightkilled'? Would you townread someone who is aware that threats of policy lynching you are a massive trigger point who started doing them like super early in the game? Would you townread someone who called you scum for not considering other options when your vote had literally just been on someone else and while it was on that other person they were calling you scum for not voting them?

Duckling went total war against me didn't care if I was scum or town and just tried to leverage anything he could against me. He got lynched for it.
I literally told him he was welcome to wait until D2 if he couldn't get into the gamestate as you pointed out to him and most of his case was NAI as you also pointed out.

It sucks but even NSG at the end was like ok yeah this has to die.

[RadiantCowbells]

you're like 10 levels deep into trying to bury me with rhetoric.... like no person can retain this much information and just recall it all on the fly while simultaneously painting this spectacular narrative.... like this is either exactly pre written or you were anticipating if you kept shitting on me eventually I'd wipe it off and glare at you...? idc which but it feels transparent

still waiting on the scumgame you were talking abt bc I literally can't remember it -- was it BoP? Ank became kinda obvtown and cashing in on the {urap, rc} friction was our only path to victory. I'm not capitalising on any friction here. I'm creating the friction.... This push is very far outside of my scum m.o. (to paraphrase you, do the bare minimum possible)....how the fuck can you earnestly look at this and reach the conclusion I'm trying to do the same thing?

it's all like, really clearly pushing ~an agenda~ but you're treating me with just enough negligence that you don't need to slow down and check yourself on any point

like fmpov you're getting scummier every time you post

my claimed belief is that i don't give a stuff if you're bussing or not, aorn. my claimed belief is that i don't have a firm read on ari and i do have a firm scumread on you. ergo, am voting you.

Again, from the point of these two posts onwards I really just honestly didn't consider the possibility of them being town because like

It felt so aware that I was town when they said that, essentially, my posts had too coherent and overarching a narrative to be produced in real time as scum so they had to be prewritten when I had absolutely zero warning that they were going after me, and were trying to discredit me for it? And then them saying I "treated them with just enough negligence that you don't need to slow down and check yourself on any point" to me read as them, again, knowing that I was town and everything I said was 100% factual and wanting to discredit me for saying 100% factual things.

I was mind blown by that town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Reading your 4732, RC, how can you accept that Ari was townreading you all that time?

Like I said, I think it's... really obvious that I'm town and the fact that my alignment is in contention doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Aristophanes seeing that really doesn't surprise me or make me think that he's scum. Particularly when he has access to Nancy Drew.

And ffs, during the actual 1v1 with TW you did your very best to downplay his push on you as a PL. Nothing more. Now suddenly you are accepting that he did in fact have reasons?

I mean, I still think everything that he said was complete bollocks but I went through his posting a lot when I realized he was town and tried to unpack his thought process.
I still think that in the end the things he said weren't relevant and the reason he said so much shit that didn't make sense is he wasn't pushing me for them.
He had just decided I was scum for some reason or other and was trying to leverage anything he could against me because I'm ~spooky~ as scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I think it's obvious just in general that I've gone through Duckling's ISO a lot trying to figure out exactly where we went wrong.
My perspective on his push on me is obviously different at this point than it was when I was hyper adrenalined up trying to kill him?

[RadiantCowbells]

Iconeum, my turn: what's your Ari read?

[RadiantCowbells]

Sure.

1) The fact that this is the first game in TM that NSG got involved in. I paraphrased a bunch of her shit in mid D1 regarding TW that includes a decent chunk of information that I was clearly not privy to in the original discussions (ie, NSG's list of games with TW.) If I were scum, I'd have no rush to leverage her. As town thinking that I am an early nightkill, getting her involvement early was paramount. NSG hating scum is also a thing but I don't think that's the only reason to townread this fact.

2) Compare my Duckling push to one of my scum pushes. Generally when I push people as scum I narrow it down to a focused set of bullet points and mostly focus on responding to their counterarguments because it's a lot easier than trying to continually generate reasons to push people as scum. As town I can process a lot of stuff at the same time and come up with just an insane amount of different reasons why someone is scum because in the early game as town I don't stop reading the thread until I know most of the game from memory. When Duckling alluded to the fact that I couldn't produce that kind of rhetoric in real time it would have been true if I were scum but it was absolutely untrue as town which, yeah, is why I scumread him for it.

3) And I can cite the shit out of this. There is 1 major thing that I am truly incapable of doing effectively as scum and that is faking the kind of in-tune reactivity that I have as town. Like the rapid fire wagon switches, my reads rapidly shifting in response to new evidence, I cannot fake it. I can link you to many references to this because it's been my weakness ever since I adapted this playstyle as town. I can also literally go through all of my scum games chronologically and show that I have never managed it as scum. Before I get people threatening banhammer this isn't a trust tell because the point of a trust tell is that you choose not to do something as town. I am well and truly incapable of it, it's just literally impossible to do convincingly and attempting it is usually pointless because it's not something that pops up in ~all~ of my town games so when it doesn't show up I can just say well, I already have my reads sorted out and they don't need further sorting.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like you're pushing me for me being all over the place wagoning everyone in the townblock but

1) I eventually decided they were all town, and I didn't exactly halt on any of them based on viability? You and Bella expressed interest in RCE, Ari and Skitter expressed interest in Mathblade.
Simply put, like, if I was scum I wouldn't be wagon shopping, I would have a very clear idea of who exactly I can and cannot lynch before I vote them and I would be presenting a much more coherent front.

The fact that I have wagoned basically every slot this day phase and decided that they're all probably town is actually a pretty good argument for me being town genuinely sorting, not scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

With regards to the memorization thing further

A vast amount of the time I catch scum not because anyone posted anything new and often not because I was reading at the time. It just

happens

. My reads are weird.
There was a night where I pulled an all nighter doing something unrelated to mafia and then in the morning eating french toast was like yeah ok SS is scum in BP and Jamelia is scum in the newbie.

Both were scum. This is also why I said that you trying to BoP me for a read before the end of the day phase is a bad idea, because I really just try new things until I feel like I've solved it.

I'm pretty bad at mafia, but I'm pretty good at this adjacent game to mafia called stalling and pushing random shit until I end up with a solve.

[RadiantCowbells]

Generally when I push people as scum I narrow it down to a focused set of bullet points and mostly focus on responding to their counterarguments because it's a lot easier than trying to continually generate reasons to push people as scum.

Actually this is a pretty big one that I've never really thought about as a tool to read me: look how frequently as scum I play reactively in pushes on people.
I make the one major case on them that instigates, then following that I encourage other people to vote but I don't continue to like come up with new reasons why they're scum
I just wait for them to try to make a counterargument and then I refute that and just keep doing that until they're down
With TW I was doing a lot more pointing to new realizations and new ways to look at the game and I really couldn't be bothered to respond to a lot of stuff they posted.
This meta is super dead after this game since I've called it out but I think that you can find that this is very reliably true.

[RadiantCowbells]

And honestly if I were scum I'd know that saying all scum are lurking isn't going to go over well. I can come up with way spicier reads that are very believable as scum if I want to.
But sometimes I'm town and, like, I have to call a spade a spade and say that everyone who is posting seems to be town so lynch the people who aren't?

Like I already got AngryDucked for taking this exact stance on D1. I clearly know it's not conducive to making friends. I'm taking it anyway.

[RadiantCowbells]

if he flips town just systematically assassinate his master perfect unstoppable POE of null lurkslots and as he's saying now I'm sure that'll go fine

Like this already happened. I don't make the same mistake twice as scum, or usually even once. These are just the reads I keep coming back to.

[RadiantCowbells]

Skitter is a good voice of reason and losing her would hurt us Townies imo.

Smh casing Flopz without including this

[RadiantCowbells]

Btw like I can individually towncase every player outside of my lynchpool and scumcase all of the ones inside besides Xtoxm if that would make my reads more palatable.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I'm not averse to it

But I'm also not going to unvote someone that I'm on with Skitter for it. If you get Skitter you get me as well.

[RadiantCowbells]

Saudade before Shos was at L-2 while there existed counterwagons that weren't me and after Skitter became clearly unobtainable: let's not lynch in RC/Ari/Math

Saudade, the slot me and Skitter have hypothesized as SvS with Plum since early D1, now that it's them or me: you all don't have cojones lynch RC scum motivated wagon.

[RadiantCowbells]

I've changed my mind

Actually this isn't even the case: your slot has been remarkably consistent since literally the first page of the game.

but there's a little party hat

On literally the first page of the game, your predecessor gave Plum an out regarding the party hat situation.

i still don't get the plum scum pings.

Trim talk about Plum town or scum and why?

eh, not much of a read yet. the skitter read might come from town.

Following up, Tris continues to discredit people scumreading / going after Plum, but she is remarkably soft about it. Despite defending her she claims not much of a read, maybe town.

plum i haven't been finding reason to townread, so i might be voting for her if that continues.

Next we hear from her, she's not really finding reason to townread Plum and so maybe she's gonna vote her? Except....

I think i want to put my vote here VOTE: flopz. still looking at a few more isos.

i'll look at plum next since that's the wagon that's growing right now

Nope. At the point where Plum is getting wagoned, she vanity wagons Flopz and expressed interest in looking at Plum, which maybe bore some fruit?

teacher - I am going to tentatively give some points to for his explanation for stating a preference to Xtoxm over Flopz wagon his morning (that statement made shortly before Flopz's new posts)

What? why would he get points for that. this seems like a weird reason to take someone off the list of possible lynches.

VOTE: the worst

Nope. Calls her out for some random post that really doesn't mean a whole lot, then decides to, once again, hop on a wagon that isn't Plum.

Then you come in, and what do you do?

Ari are you going to scumhunt because so far everyones been posting walls and stuff and you were just amusing yourself looking througn my posts

I dont like ari so far

This is an entirely reasonable thing to position as going in the direction of pushing Ari rather than Plum. Saying otherwise and being that reactive to it is...

yeah that's not an unreasonable thing to say at that point

Oh look, more pushing counterwagons to Plum/Shos.

You still haven't expressed a thought on Plum/Shos, but you have expressed a thought on Me/Ari/Math

Lets pick a lynch thats not in Math/RC/Skitter

But again, when I am suddenly the only viable counterwagon to Plum/Shos?

VOTE: RC

Shos wagon is a scum motivated wagon

Whoops. Suddenly it's time to vote me, and Shos is a "scum motivated wagon" despite being led by Skitter who you're townreading.

[RadiantCowbells]

[RadiantCowbells]

I wish Ico would flip his vote back to your fat cow face

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm wishing on a star
And trying to believe
That even though L-1 is far
I'll find it monday eve
I guess that Ico's busy
'cause his votes never come around

That's all I want when Ico comes to town

[RadiantCowbells]

The best time of the year
When team mafia is on
With all these oldies here
RC is surely gone

Wagoning the fat cow fuck with townies who come around
It's so much fun when TM comes to town

[RadiantCowbells]

This page is the most important page in the last 10 pages.

[RadiantCowbells]

This page is the most important page in the last 10 pages.

[RadiantCowbells]

Every time you're still a live
After every vote I drive
Every votecount that I get
But I haven't lynched you yet

Every single spam filled page
Every time we start to rage
All the votecounts that I get
But I still can't lynch you yet

Only when I start to think about it

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not going to deny that I'm probably the third most blacklisted player in TM but I believe I am only third, not first.

/shrug

[RadiantCowbells]

Also why do you keep calling me fat, I have plenty of real character flaws without having to invent one.

[RadiantCowbells]

I demand an opinion on my song parodies Ari

[RadiantCowbells]

I really don't take offense to anything Sau is saying because I think this is mostly in jest and I wouldn't ask you to step in on my behalf for it.
I also don't take offense to Xtoxm being mad at my presence because I believe his claim that he blacklisted me and I respect that being forced to play with someone you don't want to play with sucks.

I just can't do anything about it?

[RadiantCowbells]

I see why you would tonally scumread that post @Ari but my personal opinion is that post is one that scum would actually be reluctant to make.

[RadiantCowbells]

Can you track your read transitions on Ari and Plum throughout the game?

[RadiantCowbells]

To me actually the worst part of both Plum and Tris is that both of them had a trajectory to vote someone besides Duckling at EoD (Plum -> Aristophanes, Tris -> Plum) and both of them ended up voting Duckling instead.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean, you said that regarding Plum, I am also adding Tris to the list of people-who-made-weird-votes-at-end-of-day.

[RadiantCowbells]

can you paraphrase all the reads your team has given you? also can you explain how you didn't make this game at all a priority until you were at L-2

[RadiantCowbells]

can you paraphrase all the reads your team has given you? also can you explain how you didn't make this game at all a priority until you were at L-2

I can and I literaly just said that I won't If I get under intent to hammer I will

How does this make sense at all? Why would you not give us your teams reads if you're not caught up and you're being asked for them?

[RadiantCowbells]

RC is being weird and pinging me with interactions with Shos. He’s being too nice where as all his other scumreads he’s yelling.

I am incredibly worn down by this point in the game and my ability to RadiantCowbells effectively is shot. See: TW's "I am a friendly duckie by nature but exhausted".

[RadiantCowbells]

Nvm I didn't even read your post. That's the kind of physical state I'm in at this point.

[RadiantCowbells]

Second question still applies: why did you wait until you got brought to L-2/L-1 to start caring about this game? Don't you take TM a little more seriously than that if you're town?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like it's hard not to see that as a deliberate lurking strategy.

[RadiantCowbells]

They seem more engaged elsewhere on the site than here.

[RadiantCowbells]

i'm literally only bringing it up in the context of your general site activity. you posted here once that did nothing and then posted a bunch elsewhere. this repeated multiple times.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why do you keep pushing me as scum with everyone I push? Do you think I just literally do not stop bussing?

[RadiantCowbells]

UNVOTE: since even if they're scum I want to see Hito's reads and a full catchup for spew.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am referring to Mathblade.

[RadiantCowbells]

Go to bed. Consider your self intented for the purpose of giving your teams reads but otherwise we're not going to lynch you tonight. Just sleep and come back tmrw.

[RadiantCowbells]

Been pushing your slot all day pretty much.

This is an incredible misrepresentation of my ISO: You previously called me scum for having pushed too many people. Why am I suddenly only pushing one person?

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay that's fine. But I at the risk of getting called out again for trying to pocket Skitter would like to talk to her again before the day phase ends.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's literally one of the most famous tells used by Ellibereth who had an over 80% town winrate and was voted paragon two years ago. It's not a nothing tell. You're just bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's

LITERALLY NOT CHEATING TO REFERENCE THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE POSTING ELSEWHERE AND LURKING HERE

.

[RadiantCowbells]

WDT 1: Restate your opponent's ideas using bizarre absolutes and then refute them...

[RadiantCowbells]

Also NSG promised she'd come help me before this day is done.

~~~

[RadiantCowbells]

I agree.

This can wait, I just don't want to see Shos hammered anytime soon since I'd like to do a bit more with the day and obviously get NSG's thoughts.

Feel better Skitter <3

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean I still think it's important that we talk about reads beyond Shos but it doesn't have to be now if you're having a bad day.

rc do you think shos' ico vote is partner indicative ?

tyty

I would honestly rather postpone this question until you're feeling better because I have a lot to dump on you, lol

[RadiantCowbells]

Sleep well

[RadiantCowbells]

rc do you think shos' ico vote is partner indicative ?

tyty

I'll actually answer this.

I think that in an objective sense that if I didn't have other reads that Iconeum would be marginally more likely to be scum than average based solely on that vote.
On the other hand, bayesian probability combined with the fact that I just don't think that Iconeum is scum leaves me wanting to say its NAI.

[RadiantCowbells]

I actually want to stall the game to talk to Skitter and give NSG time to be around so you're welcome to wait for things to happen.

[RadiantCowbells]

Or counteroffer

I could spam the thread in all caps rage

[RadiantCowbells]

That was actually thoroughly pleasing spam.

What about my song parodies

[RadiantCowbells]

WAIT A SECOND HOLY FUCKING SHIT

[RadiantCowbells]

Is it possible TW+Ari is TvT? I don’t think it is just sanity check please.

i don't think so

Thanks. Now let’s wait and hope Ari can be lynched and this day ends.

Pedit: Or we can give a replacement if one is needed overnight to read and not be dropped into pressure.

Or we could throw the replacement into the fire!

Then Shos replaces in...

This cannot be coincidence.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am unable to lynch Mathblade so I am assuming he is town.
RCE is a locktownread of Skitter30 and I am assuming she is right

None of my core townreads are wrong; if Shos is town the game was lost off of the back of the other townies' reads not mine.

[RadiantCowbells]

If I was a vig I would vig Mathblade but I have been told in no uncertain terms that I cannot lynch them so I've given up on trying to play solo carry and am just voting with the de facto town leader.

[RadiantCowbells]

Ok

[RadiantCowbells]

RadiantCowbells (3): MathBlade, Saudade, RCEnigma

I sincerely doubt there is less than 2 scum here.

[RadiantCowbells]

I never once asked to be BoPed on Plums flip.

[RadiantCowbells]

In fact I've literally done the opposite

You can call me scum for shifting the responsibility to Skitter but I was open about the fact that I have no intentions of voting anyone besides who Skitter is voting

[RadiantCowbells]

Ok

VOTE: Mathblade

BoP me on this

[RadiantCowbells]

At this point I literally don't care about anything besides not having to be in a mafia game with you and I think you're scum anyway.

[RadiantCowbells]

You've literally made repeated posts that are the exact opposite of in thread material. You switch your reads in response to thread temperature; you were derptunneling Skitter as scum at the beginning then you decided you were "investigating her" and tried to call people scummy for doing disrupting your sorting wagon. You've called me scum for a myriad of contradictory reasons, nothing that you say makes any sense, I can't see a universe where you are town and I'm tired of being political and trying to help Skitter.

[RadiantCowbells]

The only gamestate that makes any sense to me is the one where Sau and Math are both scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

All I see is fuck you furry /shrug

[RadiantCowbells]

Have fun getting swept by Mathblade's terrible LaMIST scum game guys

[RadiantCowbells]

Would also vote Sau

[RadiantCowbells]

i don't really want to vote shos because he called me town.

[RadiantCowbells]

i mean

i honestly haven't tried to closeread shos tonight

i had an exhausting day

i just want to either yell at people or vote math to relieve my frustrations and i chose to vote math instead of yelling at people

[RadiantCowbells]

(I wanted the pagetop. Plus his post on ico’s discussion of Math finally convinced me to give up the paranoia)

which post is this jw

[RadiantCowbells]

i should change this, i don't think mathblade is a furry

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't, but I'm not going to go against you on it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Have you left?

[RadiantCowbells]

Hey Ari.

What do you think of the fact shos had a massive wagon and the tris slot didn't?

Can I take this to mean that you think that Tris/Sau has scum equity?

[RadiantCowbells]

Hey Ari.

What do you think of the fact shos had a massive wagon and the tris slot didn't?

Can I take this to mean that you think that Tris/Sau has scum equity?

[RadiantCowbells]

I voted you instead of Shos when you kept trying to set me up as the tomorrow lynch if Shos flipped town, yes.

[RadiantCowbells]

Less because of that fact and more because you're just using lies and reciting some hyper dated "list of tells" as a reason to scumread me.

[RadiantCowbells]

I didn't realize I was supposed to let you just pour garbage into thread uncontested.

[RadiantCowbells]

i'm still not scum by the way.

[RadiantCowbells]

i don't see why not scum with shos saudade doesn't start setting up a mislynch on me for tomorrow exactly

[RadiantCowbells]

yes it would but my point is that saudade's actions make sense as scum either with or without shos. if shos is town sau can still reasonably expect 1/2 of me or shos to be the lynch today.
and now he's laying the groundwork for the push on me and etc.

i feel like in my current position i don't have enough towncred or ~respect~ to lead a wagon and so i'm essentially just required to trust you to lead on scum because if you don't you get nightkilled, i just get lynched tomorrow and town just flat out loses.

i just want you to take the possibility of wagoning sau and/or mathblade over shos seriously. noting that again i've barely tried to read shos's team stuff and this is more a big picture thing

[RadiantCowbells]

i kinda just give up tbh.

[RadiantCowbells]

you're correct i'm not you because i don't like the questions you're asking. not scumreading me is not cogdis. you're just too much tbh

[RadiantCowbells]

i think everyone has this weird attitude that as long as i'm not flipped, pushing on RC solely for the purpose of mislynching him cannot be used as a scumtell because he ~could be scum~

[RadiantCowbells]

from my point of view, like, with the sheer density of my townreads on the wagons that aren't RC there literally have to be scum on that wagon
also from a gamestate sense if you take for granted that i'm town doesn't it seem pretty damn likely that at least one scum wants to be voting there

like i can believe that there's at least one scum on the other side who is hard towning me to stay on my good side but like there's also probably scum driving the opposition

and on a personal level if that group is entirely town i just truly don't care if it's a loss, whereas i think that the scum pulling that shit needs to be punished

[RadiantCowbells]

What do you make of RC outing a protective theory?

And then now going back on it?

I find that odd town!RC would ever out such a theory?

You find it odd that Town!RC would disprove a theory that several people were incorrectly using to clear a person that I think is playing like scum? That's what you're saying?

I only outed the "protective theory" when it was disproven, thanks.

[RadiantCowbells]

it's hard for me to not think of skitter as the same skitter who hard derailed alchemist21 and implo wagons and wouldn't vote laserguy for most of the game in sneks mafia.

What motivation would townRC have for outing who?

for outing the fact that a person clearly

did not

protect you and therefore has no outed claim, I am somehow more scummy than I was before. That is what you're implying?

[RadiantCowbells]

yes, that was at you, but regarding the wagon on me.

[RadiantCowbells]

like I can't see that entire group being town. I just can't. Not if Shos is scum (counterwagon), and not if Shos is town (avoiding responsibility for a townflip, setting up another lynch)

[RadiantCowbells]

anyway, I'm not telling you to who to vote and unless NSG both shows up and has a clear scumread I'm just going to end up voting whoever you do for ~town unity~

i'm so confused by this conversation

Mathblade is calling me scum because I pointed out that the thing multiple people assumed was a doc crumb wasn't actually.

RC outed earlier that I suspect Ico as the one who saved me last night.

I don’t see the town motivation in that.

I don't think that anyone saved you, and I think that the idea that there's no town motivation in correcting two slots being falsely assumed inno is staggeringly outlandish.

[RadiantCowbells]

When/if I flip town, lynch Mathblade then the lurker pile that I listed.

If you actually flip town, I will consider revisiting my Math read

[RadiantCowbells]

See that's the kind of thing that you don't bring up in relation to this because it doesn't affect the day game at all

[RadiantCowbells]

Ok but it's no longer relevant because Ico has clearly expressed that he doesn't have an inno on you

and you're not considering Saud at all?

[RadiantCowbells]

ok actually i would rather be stabbing myself than posting in this game right now so if you're also not into it i'm just going to bail

[RadiantCowbells]

Bro I'm not the one "dissolving town unity" when Mathblade has attempted to lead lynches on myself skit and Ari and at the height of the Shos wagon was hard defending him and trying to set me up as the lynch instead.

I also haven't personally attacked Mathblade. He is trash at mafia, that's not personal that's merely a statement of fact.

[RadiantCowbells]

Math is the one repeatedly vanity wagoning townies for reasons that don't make an ounce of sense. I am trying to play the game but I simply can't just sit there while Math makes every post about how obvscum me and Skitter /whoever else I'm townreading are?

It's not how my brain is wired.

If you think flipping me will make things easier go ahead but scum won't make another nightkill on Mathblade and his reads won't get any better and then it will be up to y'all to shut him down and not me, so have fun with that.

[RadiantCowbells]

You say that I'm the one disrupting town unity

But if Math wasn't here shitpushing town after town then I wouldn't have to be attempting to play around them.

The only difference between me and you guys is that you aren't willing to tell him to fuck off and stop pushing town.

[RadiantCowbells]

And, uh, I took Ico saying they would revisit their math read as not an inno. Which I think anyone else would as well. And I played around that, so.

[RadiantCowbells]

Or... you're just fundamentally wrong on everything and Ari isn't?

[RadiantCowbells]

I just thought all possibilities should be considered!

I knew you wouldn't think of that on your own.

VOTE: Saudade

[RadiantCowbells]

EC's scumreads in this game contain at most 1 scum and his most confident scumread is a town power role. I am significantly less afraid of EC than I am of other members on that team.
And none of the top 3 players in TM that worry me when I'm scum are on that team.

[RadiantCowbells]

If I'm scum it's still more likely that I no killed in the hope that I'd be protected than me actually shooting Mathblade, which is something that would never happen, btw.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm also sort of confused what everyone's idea is of what my gameplan here is as scum, even ignoring the whole "shooting mathblade" aspect when he was the only townblock townreading me
I apparently know that Mathblade was protected, I also caught the crumb, and I decide to push them anyway and antagonize the town instead of not doing that, particularly when I know that the sole heuristic that Mathblade generates reads off of is who is kissing up to them = town and who is not sheeping their scumreads = scum? Like, I'd know I can't lynch Math, correct?
I as scum with Shos/Plum decide to back off the wagon twice over two days because of people (skitter/Math) trying to call me scum if they flip town?
I as scum with Shos/Plum town decide to push half of the town in the early days and earn a lot of emnity towards my slot instead of letting the TvT Ari/Plum wagons fight?

I'm tired and stressed from having had no real break from being pushed on in this game over two game days as town PR. I really don't care anymore about the outcome of the game. If you think that I am somehow still scum in spite of all of the evidence that I'm not then go ahead and lynch me but quit acting like it's because I'm scummy as opposed to you not caring about my alignment.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'll selfhammer if I get to L-1, I'll vote whoever Skitter votes otherwise, I'm done playing otherwise unless NSG pops up.

[RadiantCowbells]

My ultimate trigger point as town is when people push on me dishonestly and then end up being town in spite of it. There's no chance that either Mathblade or The Worst believed most of the reasons that they gave for me being scum. For example, Mathblade's last post indicates that I'm scum because I have no reads and am trying to duck responsibility when on D1 I played in a way to gain maximum responsibility and I've made no secret of both my rather large block of townreads and my scumreads who are largely in the lurkers. It's also just terrible reasoning because I am perfectly capable of having reads as scum. The alternative is that Mathblade is a player who doesn't care about what's actually happening and just says whatever he thinks will resonate well to get his way, which given Mathblade's history having fakeclaimed a guilty on me when we were both town, yeah. I am capable of a lot better than this, but if I had to define the kind of lobby that I would most dislike and do most poorly in, this is pretty much exactly what it looks like.

I just want to move on from this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Are you so sure that I'm scum that you're willing to agree protective goes on Skitter and you sheep my townblock for the duration of the game because if you agree to those conditions I'll selfvote.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't see the point of arguing with you because you don't actually engage with me, you just look for ways to twist everything I say to make me look bad

I did not fake claim a guilty.

I had proof you were not as you claimed.

That is a guilty.

This is 100% not true. A guilty is mechanical confirmation that someone is scum. The only person on your side at the end of the game was Virtuoso who hates me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also, uh, I am still fairly sure the only stuff I have said outside of calling you a furry (which I can't explain at this time but has nothing to do with you really) and that I hate you is that you're bad at mafia.
I am not an asshole for saying your reads need to be silenced. Your play is bad and your reads need to be silenced. Everyone agrees that your reads are bad. I'm just the only one saying it to your face.

Accusing me of being unhinged is an attack on my mental health.

im struggling to find ec's reads, is it #2358?

I'm going off of TW's final post where he said 1 scum in RC, 1 or 2 scum in Plum/Flopz, and my reasonable level of conviction that Plum/Flopz are not SvS.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like you have now come to an agreement on Ari and I believe on Skitter (if I'm town). So let's just put this from my point of view where I know I'm town and I believe the other two are town.
What should I be doing if not telling anyone hey guys please don't listen to mathblade because their reads are bad when I don't have the towncred or general clout in this lobby to counter your wagons any other way

What exactly do I do here? I can't negotiate with you, you ignore all my arguments because they come from me and call me bad. I can't use general clout/townread to circumvent your reads because I have none, and I have none because in a significant part you have chosen to spend most of the day discrediting me and my reads. What I can do is explain in a rational objective sense why your reads aren't good.

The alternative is to just let you drive the game off of a cliff which based on the fact that you agree with my townreads if I'm town you should agree you're doing fmpov, so...

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm only in the loosest sense trying to prevent my lynch regardless, I'm more interested in saying what I have to say for postgame because everyone's going to blame me for this game when I really don't think it's my fault.

[RadiantCowbells]

lol

people try to engage me before I leave and i respond

[RadiantCowbells]

i'm actually voting for a scum win atp.

[RadiantCowbells]

well, rooting for.

[RadiantCowbells]

@Math you faked a guilty on town in 8 way and claimed the 3 remaining nonconfirmed town as scum and missed all 3 actual scum. Saying that you fucked up doesn't do this justice.

[RadiantCowbells]

bye

[RadiantCowbells]

nah. i don't really want to give people reasons to blame me. selfhammering when it's inevitable is an entirely different beast.

[RadiantCowbells]

Is it bad that I'm looking forward to not playing for a while after this game concludes?

Hey do you remember how you said hey I missed this game
And I was like nah bro you way way off

[RadiantCowbells]

And none of the top 3 players in TM that worry me when I'm scum are on that team.

out of curiosity, who would these be ?

Pick either 1, 2, or 3.

[RadiantCowbells]

Your attitude of Math has a 21% win rate and not to listen carte Blanche is pretty bad and toxic.

I'm playing to win and preventing mislynches is part of playing to win. It's not toxic to believe that some players are better or worse than others and to think that it's relevant information.

[RadiantCowbells]

Maybe you could reevaluate your scumread on me?

Maybe you could agree that when I flip town and you've been pushing town relentlessly all game you should be shut up and not at the centre of some dumb ico/math townblock?

[RadiantCowbells]

I can't put the toxicity behind us if you define toxic as telling people that Mathblade is bad and you shouldn't listen to them as long as I'm required to be telling people that because their reads are bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

If just telling people that the IC is a bad mafia player is toxic you're gonna have to vote me to stop the toxicity.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's hilarious how ego driven everyone is that no one is reactive to calling people an asshole or commentary on mental illness or whatever but you fall someone a BAD MAFIA PLAYER when they objectively are and ZOMG

Everyone loses their minds joker gif

[RadiantCowbells]

It doesn't even matter if you have bad reads in mafia as long as you have some perspective on it and don't try to assert your individual will over everyone. There's plenty of like meme players who do ok by relying on teamwork and townblocking as opposed to trying to bludgeon everyone into agreeing with their scumreads.

The problem with Math is that no one really agrees that I'm scum or that Skitter was scum or that Ari was scum but he attempted to bludgeon people into supporting those wagons. He voted me at start of day because I "wasn't worth keeping alive" because I wouldn't vote Ari with him.

If Math had just died town would be in a much better place tbh

[RadiantCowbells]

As soon as Math isn't pushing on town I can stop calling them a bad player but until that happens, well, yeah.

[RadiantCowbells]

No math you pretend that you're a cooperative player but you're just as much or a dictator as I am, the difference is my perception of myself isn't at odds with reality and I have the general competence to be worth sheeping. Coalition builders don't vote people because they won't sheep them.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't pretend to be something I'm not.

You do.

[RadiantCowbells]

Cohesion happens the moment you stop trying to lynch a town investigative. Is that something you'll do in the interest of making the game non toxic?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like you complain that I'm uncohesive but I literally spent the majority of this day phase glued to a universal townreads vote. The only thing making the game not cohesive is people pushing on me.

[RadiantCowbells]

And calling me out for survivalism as a power role is just ???

[RadiantCowbells]

Why is Skitter scum because I'm scum??

It makes WAY more sense for me if I'm scum to have that interaction pattern with a townie I'm trying to pocket, not scum.

In addition besides Ico who evidently can't read her no one besides Math thinks there's a chance of her being scum. That includes RCE which is one of Maths top townreads.

This is actually the complete town killer in this game because if the side of town that scumreads me townread Skitter there would be at least some room for us to work together

Ari I'm super town on Bella too
Like RCE is super townread by Math and Skitter
Ico / Math are their own thing
Skitter30 is a thing

That's at least 5 people that are out of the lynchpool and I think we can probably clear Flopz for that "scum wouldn't kill Math" (you can lynch me to prove this is a legit read. It is) thing that was super genuine and I also think Bella is pretty towny in her own weird Bella way

Even if you don't clear me or Teacher who are contentious in the townblock that is at most 5 left. If you do that's 3 left. 2/3 of whom have the two worst mutual associatives in the game.

This... shouldn't be a hard game. And it wouldn't be a hard game if Math squad wasn't hard disrupting our end of the townblock and calling it our lack of cooperation

[RadiantCowbells]

Like,tell someone to fuck off, that's gine. Telling someone they're a fucking idiot, it's a stretch but I get it especially in some situations. Repeating that someone is bad, throwing a stat in their face repeatedly, quoting a post 20 times in your post and then repeating a vote on them 50 times in the next post, something something mental illness, etc

none of that is acceptable and all of it is toxic.

I am all for less toxicity in mafia. Heck I am all for NO TOXICITY in mafia.
I know some will always occur and that's manageable. The levels here get out of control really fast though and I've almost reported a few posts, deciding not to because I mean, what good does that do really.

Like I get hat we can't just all live in a happy fun time world but I will fight against this shit whenever I can.

+1 this.

What are scum teams you’re thinking without RC and with?

With RC is tough tbh because I really don't see that as a likely possibility and as noted will have to rethink fuckloads of this game if he does flip scum at some point.

I suppose it would have to be skitter and uh....Iunno on a third. Teacher comes to mind for some reason but it could easily just be a lurker at that point.

Without RC and assuming claims are legit, it has to be within {shos, Xtoxm, Bella, Flopz}
and I think Bella is most likely town there.

I have working townreads on almost every other player not within that pool and I will only be looking at lynching within it so long as my RC townread stands.

Of those I think Bella and Flopz have the highest probability of being scum.

Shos when I had a hood with him when I was SK hated reading, the fact he is behind makes me lean more town. If he was scum I think he would take some advice from scum buddies to do something.

XtomX I think is town because of his entrance regardless of RC’s alignment. If RC is scum that’s a hot accurate read. If RC is town then why would scum risk poking RC going “look over here at how inactive I am” “No really please look!” It doesn’t seem scummy.

Bella on the other hand has a similar problem to yours at the start. She agrees with me too much and I don’t see depth in her posts. I keep trying to get her to talk more to dissuade that read but it’s hard.

Flopz kinda is really only scum if you are due to their entrance. They “forgot” to vote you. Like that’s really awkward. But awkward isn’t always scum. It needs context.

Do you see where I am coming from?

You say cooperation I gave my reads I would clear both your strong scumreads no problem.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like there's literally no room for cooperation when you're townreading every last one of my scumreads for bad reasons. There's only room for saying no math is bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

And that's why I think it's a reasonable strong play to just say no math is bad until I get lynched and hopefully Skitter Ari and the rest of the townblock with good reads get to play town leader after my flip.

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh actually I misread what you said

Failure to communicate actually on me but I'm guessing your strong scumreads are RC Skitter and Teacher

[RadiantCowbells]

I have 7 townreads and 5 people who I will lynch if Skitter says so and I count myself in that 5.

[RadiantCowbells]

scum beard.

I have literally had 1 game with below average reads in the last year and every other game ranges from pretty good to legitimately breaking the game on day 1

[RadiantCowbells]

And again

I offer cooperation

You say that I'm bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

Townreads

RcE
Skitter
Math
Ico
Flopz
Bella
Ari

Middle
RC
Teacher

Should all die soon and preferably in this order
Saudade
Shos
Xtoxm

[RadiantCowbells]

Obviously I know I'm town but I think it's more damaging for someone in the former category to go down than me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually drop Flopz.

Actually yes it does. I'm consistent. I have super notable weaknesses but when those weaknesses don't come into play I'm a big problem for scum. Unfortunately, you have created a gamestate where I am never going to reach my full potential.

[RadiantCowbells]

Nothing changed because this wasn't scumreads. All those slots were lurksauce D1 and I have been slowly accumulating townreads. Now I'm at the point where I just have a PoE pool with mutual associatives and I want them dead.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like literally

I didn't really scumread Tris or Plum because they were too boring and unreadable. I just thought they were low null. Now I'm sure everyone else is town.

[RadiantCowbells]

If my townblock is wrong

It's wrong bc my Flopz read was lazy
Or because Skitter is scum

If it's the former, shrug, I'm over it.
If the latter, again, I'm over it.

[RadiantCowbells]

If it was up to me we would lynch Tris/Saudade.

But I don't think it's up to me so I'm just trying to win against all the scumteams I can reasonably win against all of which include PlumShos as well.

If I was gonna carry this town D1 had to be different.

[RadiantCowbells]

Are you just gonna call my reasons bad?

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean you called my reasons to townread Skitter bad then you ended up agreeing, and you just called me a town beard, so you've done a disproportional amount of calling my reads bad but sure I'll roll the dice one more time.

[RadiantCowbells]

Simply put there's a complete lack of reasons to townread him moreso than reasons to scumread him + I don't think a townie ever makes 5329 even Saudade, it's pure exaggeration. His entire shtick has felt weirdly exaggerated in a self aware way as well but I'm not sure how.to.explain it. He's also taken a lot.of LAMISt stances that are not very Saudade + both himself and his.predecessor hard defended.the unholy crud out of Plumshos

[RadiantCowbells]

If you’re town look at how fast the wagon collapsed after you unvoted. Don’t you find that odd? There were player(s) with intent and all of it aborted. What do you make of that?

I think that Teacher's entire segment around this wagon was extremely uncomfortable and could indicate him being scum with Shos.
I don't have a lot else to say about it besides that there were only 3 unvotes, I'm not allowed to question RCE bc Skitter townreads him, I know the explanation for my vote, and Teacher's unvote was in fact weird.

[RadiantCowbells]

Thing is you're going to disagree with all of this and I don't think that I got through to you at all on saudade and I doubt this is going to make it through to you either?
There's a reason that I see the only path to victory being the intersection of {Skitter is town && Skitter has correct reads} because I can support her and make her scumreads get lynched but I can't push my own individually or convince town on anything

[RadiantCowbells]

Which again is why I'm really confused why people see me/Skitter as SvS, it makes a ton more sense for us to be SvT no matter how you slice it.
If I'm scum I'm setting her up to take the fall for a mislynch, if she's scum she's setting me up as tomorrow's mislynch while she pushes a mislynch
If we're both scum what exactly is the purpose in associating ourselves in people's minds and tying her to my already dead slot? if my job was to clear duck for her her job should then be to take the towncred for my lynch

Titus also thinks you’re scum and has meta to that effect.

If Titus's comparison standard is Gameshow, she should also remember I said repeatedly both during and after the game that it was completely and entirely NAI and I'd have done it as town.
This is me doing it as town.

[RadiantCowbells]

And, uh, remind her that she wasted coalitions for town and led enough of the lynches that I never got burden of proficiencied. And during the game, what did I do? I sat back and let her do it.
Like I literally sum up my meta for this year as "WAAAH OMG U GUYS ARE PUSHING MISLYNCHES IM SO MAD. I AM SO MAD!! I AM SO MAD THAT I AM JUST GONNA LET YOU PUSH THIS MISLYNCH BECAUSE OMG IM JUST SO MAD"

Regardless of who my scumteam is unless it's literally RC/Ari/Skitter I had some option to let you push a mislynch and take the fall for it. I put a very immediate stop to it, every time.
If I'm scum, I need you pushing mislynches so that I'm not pushing mislynches and getting them held against me. I am not letting you push mislynches.
I know exactly how you operate and I would have no difficulty being locktown from you if I were scum.

I might nope out of the thread for the night. Hope you two can kiss and make up at some point.

Looking forward to others chiming in, as previously noted.

GL HF

This is literally the least toxic back and forth we've had this entire game, so...

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I only went after Titus in that game right at the end of the game when she had outlived her usefulness. I acted like I was mad but let her make all the mistakes that I couldn't afford to.

Mainly if you think Skitter is TvS or SvT in any world why aren’t you voting Skitter? And instead sheeping her? Why is she in your townreads? Because you’re acting as if it’s TvT which is not possible to you.

Oh, I think we can easily be TvT. My point is specifically that SvS doesn't make sense. And that's a more important case to prove because everyone's going to default to scumreading me in the pair of us if we're agreed to be non-SvS and that lets us have a town leader who isn't pushing a bunch of reads that I don't agree with.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also there's a huge difference between Gameshow me waving my dick around and not really doing much with it on most day phases because I didn't actually want to be responsible for leading lynches
and town me who brings up competency only when I think it's relevant as opposed to as an attempt to townspew by coming across as obnoxious but town a la saudade.

[RadiantCowbells]

And before Titus brags about being the only person to scumread me in Gameshow: yes it is true at some point she ended up scumreading me. After I wasted our clear on her and our venge on Maria.
When I already had to kill her I stopped playing around her and just started shutting her up because I knew she was going to get paranoid of me at that stage in the game and all I had to do was point back to her play in that game, especially the second coalition which she completely wasted (most of my scum thought process was trying to come up with a good way around it until she proposed literally throwing it in the toilet).

There's literally no comparison between that and me going after someone whom I don't know as town is cleared but whom I would know as scum is cleared.
The only player in that game who I was ever worried about was MariaR and I said that in scum chat. Besides for the whole confirmed townies giving reads in endgame thing, but I couldn't predict that.
I also couldn't predict the mod totally fucking the scumteam by not letting us use the person we groomed and giving town another shot at it??

[RadiantCowbells]

And for context since a lot of people are worshipping Cancel Food and acting like I'd be scared of them as scum and *have* to remove them
I kept both Ankamius and Eddie Cane around in Gameshow (MASSIVELY townsided setup) as midgame mislynches. I was never frightened of either in the context of a game as scum Neither of them have the tools to deal with me. I have lynched Ankamius in lylo as scum 3 times now to the point it's sort of a thing that I just do holding her around to lynch in LyLo for meme value and I wouldn't have abandoned that in this game.

To actually concern me you need to be able to have a strong record of correctly townreading me as town so that your scumread on me actually makes people care about it.
No one cared about Duck's read on me after he died because no one on that team actually has a good record reading me.

MariaR scared me in gameshow because she townreads me like a very solid amount of the time that I'm town and her read on me is therefore going to matter to people and mislynching her as town if she really doesn't want to get mislynched is an actual exercise in impossibility. NSG scared me in Access Point because she can correctly read me as town, can gather enough velocity to lead a lynch on me as scum, and also for the unique reason that I can't play my normal scumgame around her because she'll know instantly if I'm scum if I don't engage with her in the right way, which also forces me to cede control to her as town leader because she would know I'm scum instantly if I was trying to hard drive a scum lynch that she was super anti unless I faked a rage push and I just don't have the energy to pretend to be mad all the time.

Responding to your posts now

[RadiantCowbells]

The latter is very much how you come across to me. Especially on the shos wagon. If you take control and restrict others movement in a mafia game you have to be that level of sure. To the point you’d be willing to die for it. Because no other reads get generated. You very much come off as avoiding responsibility this game whatever your intent is.

Are you sure enough on Saudade that you’d be willing to risk that? Because right now no one agrees with you and multiple people agree you’re scum. None of whom except Saude you scumread.

If you are that sure you should say you’re willing to be BoP’d on it. If not then you need to poke around Saude and ask Saude questions so that way you can have your read get stronger or he is forced to spew either town or scum.

The thing is I'm explicitly not taking control or restricting other's movements. The way I see it, Skitter is the only person who has really been pushing people I scumread and she's not going to get the lynch off without team support and I'm trying to help her on that. I have done the opposite of taking control or restricting people's movements outside of saying to not vote me who is confirmed town power role fmpov.

Here's what I think happens if I declare BoP on Saudade.
The townblock gets split between Saudade/Shos votes, Skitter stays on Shos, a bunch of people split
No sort of consensus wagon forms and we get stuck between the two throughout the day
While this back and forth goes on the wagon on me gets traction because there's no coherent wagon opposed to it and eventually everyone gets tired of the fight and decides to lynch me instead.

I -cannot- just lynch Saudade by saying BoP me on Saudade or else I would have done it a very long time ago.

Specifically this one here.

Skitter says they scumread me more after the protective claim but is acting like they want Shos more. This is very odd. She didn’t go into why and shaded her own thoughts just a bit later.

It’s reaaaaally bad.

Are you missing the posts where she talked about how she just didn't have the mental energy to deal with a potentially toxic thing?

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't vote someone just because I scumread them. I think that Skitter is the same way. Sometimes the correct play is to not just go after your biggest scumread.
I think it's very reasonable that she was in a similar boat to me when I was scumreading you in that she wanted to go after you but she knew it would completely destroy town unity and if she was wrong pretty much lose the game instantly. I think that from her point of view it would also be extremely stressful because she's conflict avoidant (I am also incredibly conflict avoidant IRL but I turn it off during mafia.) Furthermore there's no guarantee that we actually get you lynched even if we go after you and if Skitter thinks that you're scum primarily because you're hard counterwagoning Shos, then the Shos wagon is just as good, no?

[RadiantCowbells]

Further follow up on the Gameshow argument: Dannflor/ND hydra was the one and only slot in the game that was townread above me and that's why I said earlier that I am more worried about Dannflor as scum than the other 3. I actually don't know how worried I would be about Duckling because I don't recall ever playing scum vs him since Friemds mafia but I feel more general internal angst about it than I do facing EC or Ank.

[RadiantCowbells]

Math you're simultaneously calling me out for controlling the game too much and ceding control of the game too much and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to respond to that.

[RadiantCowbells]

I do not want your example because I think you are conflating two different things.

I do not think that she is accusing you of being toxic. I think she is saying that it would be toxic to the gamestate. I think that she is saying that everyone in the game would hate it because it would be loud and vocal and it would be impossible to sort the lurker slots which was basically everyone's priority at that point in the game. I also think she has basically no motivation to buddy me if she is scum when the game thinks that I'm scum and all she really needs to do is take the free mislynch.

I also literally told her I wasn't gonna try to lynch you unless she did so I don't think that works as a reason either.

[RadiantCowbells]

It’s about when and how you do.
(Assuming you’re town...)
For example with TW it was really scummy how you controlled the gamestate if you’re town.

No one was able to talk about anything and begged for day to end vs asking questions.

Thing is: it's something that I would do there as either alignment in reaction to that push on me by Duckling so at worst it should be seen as null.

And now here you’re just kinda playing dead (except until this last convo) trying time ignore any sort of input.

There is a middle ground. It’s just contributing. It’s listening with the intent to understand versus the intent to reply.

I am not playing dead: I have had plenty to say about reads I have just mostly been focused on talking to Ari and Skitter who are my townblock-that-generally-agrees-on-reads.
I do not think that me trying to play town leader directly in this gamestate would be productive so focusing on influencing the person deciding the direction is the alternative strategy.

I don’t see the gamestate that way.

I think you’re substituting your own goals for everyone.

I think that’s part of the problem.

And I think that you oversimplify everyone's reads into what's pro-town in the simplest terms and what isn't and you fail to see nuance and shade of grey and alternative reasons for people's actions.

[RadiantCowbells]

I also think you have a tendency to either see the gamestate as you want to see it or present it as such as opposed to how it is but that's an entirely different topic.

[RadiantCowbells]

Hell, you might even perform better on a website where there's an implicit rule that everyone acts pro-town in the obvious sense and that anyone who deviates from that gets lynched so everyone's motivations are watered down and simplified and you don't have to worry about getting false positives based on people who act unpredictably or based on motivations that you don't understand. But this is still MS and I think that I understand Skitter30's motivations better than you.

[RadiantCowbells]

That game was three years ago when she was a fresh player and back when she had the wallpostier meta. Her meta changed significantly in 3 years. She, unfortunately, has chosen to be a lot less explain reads-y and a lot more of what you see here. I miss her wallpostier days. I can actually see why you scumread the shift because I found her incredibly easy to read when she was more open with her thoughts and have struggled relatively in recent times. I think that you should read a recent game from her to compare to instead of using three year old meta because if that was my only meta context I would scumread her too.

[RadiantCowbells]

From where I'm standing there isn't literally a 0% chance that Skitter30 is scum. I think that it is quite unlikely relatively but not literally 0.
But, uh, if she's town we have a fairly good shot at winning this and if she's scum we really just don't have any shot at winning this.

It's an incredibly low equity play to go after her and I would rather play to my outs and assume that scum is in the scummy people as opposed to the villagery people who might be playing a god tier game.

[RadiantCowbells]

That might actually elucidate why I'm interacting with Skitter the way I am. Basically I consider it the equivalent of a hearthstone game where your opponent might have consecrate. If you play around it, you have about a 20% chance of winning and they have about a 25% chance of having it. If you don't play around it, you have about a 60% chance of winning if they don't have it and a 2% chance of winning if they don't.

Even if not playing around consecrate gives you that 2% chance of winning if you're unlucky and Skitter is scum, not playing around consecrate is still 45.5% win equity versus 20% win equity.
There's just no reason for me to reevaluate that read if I want to play to win.

From where I am standing I would rather take out you or Skitter. Because I am better at finding deep wolves than traditional. I am better at finding town in scummy players but once I have a possible pool narrowing from there is my weakness I think. Like I don’t see Skitter town and I gotta go to bed.

I will try to find a newer game of hers though.

Be very careful that your definition of being better at finding deep wolves than others isn't the same thing as saying I always scumread people who are good at deepwolfing and sometimes I'm right.
Because almost everyone whom I have ever played with who said something to that effect ends up calling me scum in all of our games regardless of my alignment and hoping to be right.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like (and Titus might find that read relevant) it's the same reason I never reconsidered LLD scum in Magical Girls. I absolutely considered that she could be scum. I scumread the fuck out of her posting.
But I'm not going to play around a townie fakeclaiming masons with scum because the vast majority of time townies claim masons they are not fakeclaiming.

[RadiantCowbells]

I really do think that everyone should play to have the highest win equity in the bigger picture as opposed to getting stuck on the weeds about having potential autoloss scenarios in individual games.

[RadiantCowbells]

also i am *incredibly* suspicious of how fast that wagon built
i think that there's more than one scum on that wagon

Actually there is 1 thing that I want to talk about. Ico/Math are now conftown. That leaves Saudade/Xtoxm. Shouldn't you be considering Saudade on that basis?

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that judging me based on anything that you've said so far in this thread as a way to judge people's alignments is just flat out not gonna work.
If you want to determine if I'm scum you can either go off of really easy stuff like postcount, investment, BoP "IN GAMESTATES WHERE PEOPLE LET ME DO MY SHIT"
or you need to go off of way more complex vectors.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like what makes me a good deepwolf vector is I'm capable of having relatively confident townreads on really good scumplayers, so when those townreads are missing it's cause for alarm.
Not for my ability to call them scum the majority of the time, which literally anyone can do and most good scum players have the ability to deal with anyway.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also if Skitter is scum, it's with Sau but not Plum, if that gives you any more motivation than you previously had to consider Saudade.