Page 65 of 103
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:23 am
by Chara
In post 1573, Chara wrote:and if it's because he's scum, then i think it's a deliberate way to make him difficult to argue with, and possibly an attempt to emulate headstrong town.
it could be personality =/= it's personality.
you're not going to agree with me but don't pretend i can't scumread someone while also continuing to sort them.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:24 am
by Farkran
In post 1573, Chara wrote: In post 1568, Psyche wrote:I suppose my perception is that, despite your protestations, the rationales provided for your farkran scumreads are indistinguishable from criticisms of his play.
The "i haven't seen evidence of Farkran really considering any outside opinions about... basically anything" line is, again, a good example of this. How does that connect to him being scum?
I'd really rather Chara answer over anyone else pushing the wagon.
that's what i'm trying to figure out here. it's why i'm not voting to lynch him right now. i'm
not
confident he's scum.
if it's his personality, he can show me that himself in response. and if it
is
, maybe that could prompt some sort of rethinking on how he approaches the game. i don't know. mafia's a team game and i don't think soloing it is a good idea in the first place.
and if it's because he's scum, then i think it's a deliberate way to make him difficult to argue with, and possibly an attempt to emulate headstrong town.
again, your reasoning for him being town would be nice.
...did you end up reading my wiki page? You asked for a source to read my meta, some 20 pages ago or something. At least i think it was you. My meta is pretty much consistent with this game, town and scum alike. I am active, passionate, stubborn, megalomaniac, at times unpleasant, but often correct after a few trial and error iterations. So far i have never lost a game. I have never been lynched. I only mislynched town (as town) 3 times, and one of them was me trying to compromise on lynching a townread of mine (Egix, day 4 of Normal 2106). I think my scumrange is large enough to make me almost unreadable, that's why i often justify scumreads of me
that make sense
and are not just a permutation of "oh look, a newbie is being angry, must be caught scum". The sample size isn't large, i am fully aware that this will likely change sometimes in the future, but so far that's what i have.
This should answer comprehensively enough about my personality.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:25 am
by Chara
In post 1599, Replica wrote:Really Replica? Can you not
even imagine
a world where we are in fact both scum? Why are you opposing this lynch so much?
somebody please kill me
i sympathize but i don't think this is really productive anymore.
pedit: i did look. what i wanted was to hear it from you and not to read it secondhand. i'm useless with cold meta and don't really trust my own interpretations of it.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:27 am
by Replica
It's true, I'm really just killing time waiting for either of Nacho/Psyche to decide to put their weight behind something. Psyche's in a position to where he can get a Hectic spare if he wants, Nacho's in a position to remove that possibility, and Chemist is a wonderful wildcard that can make someone's dreams a reality but god only knows who.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:28 am
by Replica
Bingle can also get the Hectic spare iirc
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:28 am
by Amrun
In post 1566, Chara wrote:also Replica, i replied to your Bingle towncase and wanted to know if you had anything from this game.
pedit: if Farkran is always like this, it's personality. there's no way to know that without poking at it, which is why i wanted Farkran to reply.
and it's
still
an issue if he's town.
I will say in a normal I played with Farkran, he was so deeply pocketed by scum bob he didn’t seem to consider outside opinions on it. We did end up winning though. Meh.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:33 am
by Chemist1422
In post 1595, Amrun wrote: In post 1504, Chemist1422 wrote:I’d say somewhere around traitor
so basically it’s a scumread but I don’t trust myself to not be confbiasing it, and no one else have real thoughts on it
I don’t understand why this post doesn’t have a vote in it.
I don’t understand why you don’t get the implications of “I don’t feel good enough about it to commit”
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:35 am
by Farkran
In post 1596, Chara wrote:there's more to reply to, but i'm not talking about reconsidering a read or reacting to the gamestate, i'm talking about things like taking criticism, or having your opinion changed through the opinion of a different player. team town play. when you said i was being confusing i made a concentrated effort to be less confusing and have hopefully been less so since.
not everyone plays like that. i gave Wisdom as an example of someone who often doesn't (i think he still has his title for that), but there are plenty.
i want you to respond to my assertion that the players townreading you don't seem to listen to you. there was Bingle, but he was sheeping and said he hadn't looked at the case. do you think they should listen? do you wonder why they don't? is my actual assertion wrong and you are being listened to? am i wrong to say the players TRing you don't like your play? that's what i want to know. it's information i could mine from the thread but that just isn't feasible for me right now and i'd like your opinion anyway.
also, your case on me and Hectic remains something scum could have done but a situation that also has a town explanation, as Hectic already pointed out.
as for dodging game-changing events; i gave my opinion on that when it happened. that's not dodging, it's disagreeing.
and given how much i've gone back and forth on you, i find it rather inaccurate to say i haven't been reconsidering anything either.
i'm not going to vote you because i'm not confident you'll flip scum. i want to spare. if i can't spare Hectic then i have other options for that. if you flip red you flip red. if you flip green you flip green.
Eh, you are asking to me if i would like to be listened more? Yeah, i do. At least about the strategy to pursue in this game. I am not claiming i have the bestest reads in the world, but i definitely will not if we are not getting flips. The main reason i pushed so strong on a Hectic lynch instead of you, given that i scumread both with pretty much the same amount of confidence, is because Hectic has been much more in the spotlight than you were. Hectic was the top spare wagon in d1, i was the top fight wagon, and the wagons almost overlapped entirely. Don't you find that at least a tiny bit
odd
?
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:38 am
by Replica
Respectfully, I think the most concise point I can actually make on why Farkran is actually scum is that he has a horrible tendency to decide what he wants to push, then work backwards, rather than having any of it come about organically.
#1488 is a pretty prime example where he identifies Amrun is a crucial swingvoter, decides to sheep her, but then...makes a convoluted explanation to immediately back it rather than showing any sort of organic progression on Bingle over time. All of
#1587 openly admits to looking to Amrun when in doubt, making me suspect the backwards motive even more.
#1319 I explain why his timing on me was deeply questionable, and in
#802 I go more indepth specifically on why the case he made at that time was working in reverse.
#1416 I looked and found that overly convoluted, loaded explanations and sudden readturns were essentially Farkran's bread and butter his first scumgame.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:41 am
by Replica
I really need more from Nacho here, I'm just kind of treading water and should just take a break until he comes back.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:43 am
by Farkran
In post 1598, Replica wrote:I'm still floored that I am actually being asked to justify why I think it would be a bad idea to follow my strongest scumread in a lynch on my strongest townread
In post 1599, Replica wrote:Really Replica? Can you not
even imagine
a world where we are in fact both scum? Why are you opposing this lynch so much?
somebody please kill me
Have you ever heard of a concept called "bussing"? Do i recall wrong, or was it you who claimed that this game could be a direct extension of Newbie 1958? Could you inform the class as of why i won that game specifically?
Again, the problem is not you townreading Bingle, or you scumreading me. It's not even about not voting Bingle - i would be far more concerned if you did, actually. Voting with a scumread of yours against a townread of yours, when you have been so strong against lynching, would be immensely concerning.
The problem is your level of confidence in
both town!Bingle AND scum!Farkran
that you displayed when going out of your way and backpedaling on Hectic while at the same time placing your first hurt vote on me,
just to prevent a bingle flip
.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:45 am
by Farkran
In post 1605, Amrun wrote: In post 1566, Chara wrote:also Replica, i replied to your Bingle towncase and wanted to know if you had anything from this game.
pedit: if Farkran is always like this, it's personality. there's no way to know that without poking at it, which is why i wanted Farkran to reply.
and it's
still
an issue if he's town.
I will say in a normal I played with Farkran, he was so deeply pocketed by scum bob he didn’t seem to consider outside opinions on it. We did end up winning though. Meh.
This is unfortunately true. It's not really nice of you to avoid mentioning that i dodged the first mislynch correctly, i pushed 2 out of 3 scum correctly while everyone else was scumreading me/egix, but yeah. I was completely burned and frustrated by that game, and your read of bob was better than mine. I respect you for that.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:47 am
by Replica
The joke was that there is obviously a world in which you can bus. This is very, VERY different from finding that world plausible or worth pursuing.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:50 am
by Replica
If the first is right, a Bingle flip is a terrible idea.
If the second is right, there are two possible worlds. The first is that you are bussing. A Bingle flip is fine. The second is that you are not bussing. A Bingle flip is a terrible idea. These are not equally probable worlds.
It's not logical AND, it's logical OR.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:52 am
by Replica
If neither are right, then yes, I have a huge problem...but of course you do when your two biggest reads are wrong. This does not mean "Let people lynch whoever lol"
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:00 pm
by Replica
Alright, it is time to PUT THE COMPUTER AWAY and GO OUTSIDE. If I post again before Chemist/Psyche/Nacho do something noteworthy someone slap me
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:10 pm
by Farkran
In post 1613, Replica wrote:If the first is right, a Bingle flip is a terrible idea.
If the second is right, there are two possible worlds. The first is that you are bussing. A Bingle flip is fine. The second is that you are not bussing. A Bingle flip is a terrible idea. These are not equally probable worlds.
It's not logical AND, it's logical OR.
In post 1614, Replica wrote:If neither are right, then yes, I have a huge problem...but of course you do when your two biggest reads are wrong. This does not mean "Let people lynch whoever lol"
Nope - you specifically said that both outcomes combined are why you described this gamestate as "the brink of disaster". You have seen Farkran S-2, Bingle F-3, and you panicked. Sparing scum i can understand - it's catastrophically bad, but as i explained in
1589, my spare (the catastrophical result that you are afraid of) is largely less probable than a Bingle lynch despite the 1 vote difference in my favor. Lynching town is bad, but not game-losing levels of bad - on the contrary, every flip would help improving this situation where deciding for a day resolution is a pain, every day. And this is assuming Bingle is town in the first place. You not acknowledging the possibility that he's scum, and panicking over a single potential town mislynch is what's concerning to me. So far, we have spared 1 town player. We have 3 more days in phase 1, then 1-2 more days in phase 2 depending on the route selected. How is this a bad gamestate, resultwise? The bad thing in this gamestate is the town disharmony, a situation which would be helped immensely by a flip. That you are opposing with all your heart and soul for... pretty much no reason at all.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:13 pm
by Chemist1422
In post 1615, Replica wrote:Alright, it is time to PUT THE COMPUTER AWAY and GO OUTSIDE. If I post again before Chemist/Psyche/Nacho do something noteworthy someone slap me
nothing I do is noteworthy so you might be waiting a while
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:30 pm
by Amrun
In post 1606, Chemist1422 wrote: In post 1595, Amrun wrote: In post 1504, Chemist1422 wrote:I’d say somewhere around traitor
so basically it’s a scumread but I don’t trust myself to not be confbiasing it, and no one else have real thoughts on it
I don’t understand why this post doesn’t have a vote in it.
I don’t understand why you don’t get the implications of “I don’t feel good enough about it to commit”
I do get it. But realistically, where do you want the day to go? Is that end realistic? Could you compromise on a Bingle lynch to achieve something worthwhile in the game?
Can I trade you votes, or make a deal, or something? I’m trying to converse.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:35 pm
by Amrun
In post 1611, Farkran wrote: In post 1605, Amrun wrote: In post 1566, Chara wrote:also Replica, i replied to your Bingle towncase and wanted to know if you had anything from this game.
pedit: if Farkran is always like this, it's personality. there's no way to know that without poking at it, which is why i wanted Farkran to reply.
and it's
still
an issue if he's town.
I will say in a normal I played with Farkran, he was so deeply pocketed by scum bob he didn’t seem to consider outside opinions on it. We did end up winning though. Meh.
This is unfortunately true. It's not really nice of you to avoid mentioning that i dodged the first mislynch correctly, i pushed 2 out of 3 scum correctly while everyone else was scumreading me/egix, but yeah. I was completely burned and frustrated by that game, and your read of bob was better than mine. I respect you for that.
Sorry, that wasn’t meant to be a comment on the overall correctness of your reads that game! It was specifically about being intractable on a particular point while having a town alignment. So it was a counterpoint, if you will, to Chara’s assertion that it’s scummy from you. I think it’s probably NAI. (It’s also not a value judgment - I have utterly convinced myself of many things, conclusions both right AND wrong, in this game we call mafia.)
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:47 pm
by Chemist1422
In post 1618, Amrun wrote: In post 1606, Chemist1422 wrote: In post 1595, Amrun wrote: In post 1504, Chemist1422 wrote:I’d say somewhere around traitor
so basically it’s a scumread but I don’t trust myself to not be confbiasing it, and no one else have real thoughts on it
I don’t understand why this post doesn’t have a vote in it.
I don’t understand why you don’t get the implications of “I don’t feel good enough about it to commit”
I do get it. But realistically, where do you want the day to go? Is that end realistic? Could you compromise on a Bingle lynch to achieve something worthwhile in the game?
Can I trade you votes, or make a deal, or something? I’m trying to converse.
For me it's something like
Farkran spare > Nacho fight > Hectic spare > Bingle fight
I'm fine with probably all of these today but since last I checked we weren't under insane time pressure I'm sticking with the first two as my votes for rn
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:01 pm
by Farkran
I admit i have been really unpleasant in that game, but i was mostly frustrated because of how i quarreled with PP and Menalque about the Garmr mislynch in d1 eod. I seriously considered quitting MS at the time. Am i that level of unreasonable in this game? If so, i'm sorry. Not my intent. I just don't want to regret conceding my instincts/reads. That Egix mislynch, in the same game, is also part of the reason why i'm being more stubborn - but at least i'm trying to communicate better.
I also mislynched Bingle in my recent cult game, but he was really different than how it is in this game. Honestly, if it wasn't for Almidia, i would probably have voted him way earlier. @Those who have direct meta experience with Bingle, is it common for him to play this halfassedly when he's disengaged in a game? Please refer to
This ISO and
This post in particular to see what i am talking about. Compare to
Post 353/
Post 609 where Bingle explains his very convoluted reaction test to shos. In the end, bingle was wrong and i was correct, but the effort he put into it was true. Then we mislynched him because of massclaim shenanigans, but that's a different story.
pedit: this post @Amrun and @everyone having meta with bingle
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:24 pm
by Amrun
I honestly don’t have great meta with bingle.
I think this is the extent of it: chkflp’s recent 40p game. He started in this game, and came out of the gate strong, but at some point, I got mad at him for coasting there too. He was town. Still quite a different player from the Bingle I’m seeing here I think.
He replaced into GnR at like deadline LyLo and didn’t do much there, as town, but it was a different gamestate and I kind of didn’t expect him to.
Yet when he applies himself he is very clearly capable. I haven’t played with scum bingle. So idk.
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:01 pm
by Psyche
In post 1600, Chara wrote: In post 1573, Chara wrote:and if it's because he's scum, then i think it's a deliberate way to make him difficult to argue with, and possibly an attempt to emulate headstrong town.
it could be personality =/= it's personality.
you're not going to agree with me but don't pretend i can't scumread someone while also continuing to sort them.
there's nothing here that
explains a scumread though
you've said yourself that there's
no way to know whether it's personality or not
that equates to a nullread at best
what makes you
lean
scum?
Posted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:04 pm
by Psyche
anyway the deadline that's been distracting me is past so i engage a bit more now