In post 1621, Frogsterking wrote:Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?
I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.
In post 1621, Frogsterking wrote:Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?
I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.
Why don't you case it then?
I believe you are fence sitting right now to avoid having to explain your reads on the spot. When evaluating your slot in iso it becomes clear that your reads are very ambivalent and the only thing you've explained is your scum read on the Trendall slot. For anyone that missed, I went over all of this in 1589.
In post 1621, Frogsterking wrote:Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?
I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.
Why don't you case it then?
Well it seems enough people are on board with bugs dying that I don't have to. As for Gamma, we will see. With two red flips there'll be plenty to go on to re-think and make sure I'm not also just tunneling.
In post 1621, Frogsterking wrote:Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?
I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.
In post 1621, Frogsterking wrote:Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?
I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.
Why don't you case it then?
I believe you are fence sitting right now to avoid having to explain your reads on the spot. When evaluating your slot in iso it becomes clear that your reads are very ambivalent and the only thing you've explained is your scum read on the Trendall slot. For anyone that missed, I went over all of this in 1589.
What do you mean fence-sitting? I'm taking some pretty firm stances here. Bugs and Gamma. Maybe Luca or Trendall. Everyone else is Town. Pretty confident in that. I even think I was probably wrong about Trendall. Ejji seems pretty Town.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:10 pm
by Gamma Emerald
In post 1623, ejjinami wrote:Lunar is close to lock town on their own, they tunneled bugs for the majority of the game while mom jumped casually between unrelated wagons
Lunar didn’t really stick to the bugs scumread when it counted I believe
In post 1623, ejjinami wrote:Lunar is close to lock town on their own, they tunneled bugs for the majority of the game while mom jumped casually between unrelated wagons
Lunar didn’t really stick to the bugs scumread when it counted I believe
When was that? Early Day 1 I had bugs at null when there was a bugs wagon, but as the wagon faded I changed my mind and ever since then I've been pretty consistent. I'd say that when it counts is now, and I'm going to hammer.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:16 pm
by Frogsterking
If you actually read 1589 like you claimed then you would know exactly what Gamma is referring to, and fyi the inconsistency of your slot progression I focused mainly on D2, though I also included Luca's case on your slot from D1.
In post 1623, ejjinami wrote:Lunar is close to lock town on their own, they tunneled bugs for the majority of the game while mom jumped casually between unrelated wagons
Lunar didn’t really stick to the bugs scumread when it counted I believe
When was that? Early Day 1 I had bugs at null when there was a bugs wagon, but as the wagon faded I changed my mind and ever since then I've been pretty consistent. I'd say that when it counts is now, and I'm going to hammer.
Bugs was close to lim D1 and I think D2 at times you had the ability to hammer iirc
And I voted bugspray when I had them at null but I stayed there because none of their posting after my vote on them D1 looked towny imo
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:26 pm
by Frogsterking
1031, 1032, 1033 are blatant examples of this ambivalent and inconsistent read progression, and weak distancing FoSes on both Bugs and Momrangal while pushing and discrediting everyone else. In 1328 you're late onto the Momrangal bandwagon, only going on after you "forgot" to switch your vote and it was already clear that wagon was going through despite your best efforts. Now again you will be hypothetically late going onto the Bugs bandwagon, but I don't think you will hammer Bugs at all because you know then it will be over for you.
Again, these are all arguments you would have seen before had you actually read 1589, as you implied three times in a row after it was posted, in 1592, 1593, and again in 1594.
In post 1621, Frogsterking wrote:Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?
I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.
In post 1621, Frogsterking wrote:Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?
I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.
Why don't you case it then?
I believe you are fence sitting right now to avoid having to explain your reads on the spot. When evaluating your slot in iso it becomes clear that your reads are very ambivalent and the only thing you've explained is your scum read on the Trendall slot. For anyone that missed, I went over all of this in 1589.
What do you mean fence-sitting? I'm taking some pretty firm stances here. Bugs and Gamma. Maybe Luca or Trendall. Everyone else is Town. Pretty confident in that. I even think I was probably wrong about Trendall. Ejji seems pretty Town.
In post 1632, Frogsterking wrote:1031, 1032, 1033 are blatant examples of this ambivalent and inconsistent read progression, and weak distancing FoSes on both Bugs and Momrangal while pushing and discrediting everyone else. In 1328 you're late onto the Momrangal bandwagon, only going on after you "forgot" to switch your vote and it was already clear that wagon was going through despite your best efforts. Now again you will be hypothetically late going onto the Bugs bandwagon, but I don't think you will hammer Bugs at all because you know then it will be over for you.
Again, these are all arguments you would have seen before had you actually read 1589, as you implied three times in a row after it was posted, in 1592, 1593, and again in 1594.
Your "firm stance" is FoSing four different slots and casting suspicion on my own, in a scenario when there are only two scum left, and blatantly lying about the nature of the massive case I laid out clearly in 1589 which you pretended to read.
I almost feel a little cruel here going on like this, it seems like you're just caught scum and there is no way out for you.
In post 1621, Frogsterking wrote:Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?
I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.
In post 1621, Frogsterking wrote:Lunar, if the reason for your brief pro town change in playstyle at the beginning of D2 --where you actually appeared to be trying to scum hunt and explain your reads and interact with other players-- was because you were getting used to Normals, why are you regressing back into your D1 persona now? Are you getting un-used to them?
I think I've solved the game. I'm just biding my time while people say what they need to. I'll reconsider tomorrow if I'm proven wrong.
Why don't you case it then?
I believe you are fence sitting right now to avoid having to explain your reads on the spot. When evaluating your slot in iso it becomes clear that your reads are very ambivalent and the only thing you've explained is your scum read on the Trendall slot. For anyone that missed, I went over all of this in 1589.
What do you mean fence-sitting? I'm taking some pretty firm stances here. Bugs and Gamma. Maybe Luca or Trendall. Everyone else is Town. Pretty confident in that. I even think I was probably wrong about Trendall. Ejji seems pretty Town.
In post 1632, Frogsterking wrote:1031, 1032, 1033 are blatant examples of this ambivalent and inconsistent read progression, and weak distancing FoSes on both Bugs and Momrangal while pushing and discrediting everyone else. In 1328 you're late onto the Momrangal bandwagon, only going on after you "forgot" to switch your vote and it was already clear that wagon was going through despite your best efforts. Now again you will be hypothetically late going onto the Bugs bandwagon, but I don't think you will hammer Bugs at all because you know then it will be over for you.
Again, these are all arguments you would have seen before had you actually read 1589, as you implied three times in a row after it was posted, in 1592, 1593, and again in 1594.
Your "firm stance" is FoSing four different slots and casting suspicion on my own, in a scenario when there are only two scum left, and blatantly lying about the nature of the massive case I laid out clearly in 1589 which you pretended to read.
I almost feel a little cruel here going on like this, it seems like you're just caught scum and there is no way out for you.
Your "probably town" read of Trendall's slot doesn't mean anything, look at your "probably town" read on Gamma in 1030 where you proceed to push him all day over Bugs.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:30 pm
by Luca Blight
I was going to go more into my Lunar read Tomorrow.
My read on Lunar this game has been affected by a Newbie I was simultaneously playing with them (which has now finished) where I believed they were Town for most of the game, but they were scum. Their improved play, therefore, is very much possible from Town!Lunar. Their read on Galron, however, implied they might be a Town PR, as Lunar had previously shown no indication that they townread Galron, so an 'obvtown' read at this juncture suggested that they had received a green light.
Right now I think Frogster is just correct in saying it's Bugs/Lunar, and this was the team I heavily suspected D1. I'm struggling with motivation for Mafia right now for a few reasons unrelated to this game, and just want to get the Bugs elim done before I dig deeper into this.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:30 pm
by Luca Blight
From scum!Lunar, I meant to say.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:00 pm
by ejjinami
ffs are you serious now?
ok, give me a meta sample for lunar as well, please.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:02 pm
by ejjinami
nvm, it’s not necessary anymore
I found it.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:20 pm
by ejjinami
I’ve read the iso in lunar’s scum game. If you don’t trust me, I’ll give links below so you can double-check it. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, JUST DO IT.
guess what
I found meta differences. I found EXACTLY those meta differences I expected them to have, when explaining my town-read on them right after I replaced in
Players who tend to get straight to the point and only say what’s needed often tend to explain themselves more as scum. They tend to be less spontaneous, nicer and generally more “objectively townie”.
and guess what, this is clearly seen in their scum game.
They are nice, explain their thoughts carefully and care about maintaining a good progression.
In this game their posts are raw, they don’t care to make their posts easily town-readable and just go with their gut (until they get decent reads).
There is no need for meta here, this is just a general tendency related to personality. Being “objectively townie” and writing a lot is NOT townie for everyone. Please verify this by reading lunar’s scum iso I linked below.
In their scum game despite them showing “emotions” all of them are “controlled”, coupled with quite a bit of explaining + “townie” reasoning
in their current game there’s nothing like that. If emotions are visible in their posts, they’re raw, often coupled with insulting other players slightly. Again, proof that as scum they’re too stressed to interact with other players as they normally do and that as scum they are too stressed to be mean to players they’re supposed to suck up to.
They are NOT sucking up to anyone here, they did NOT care about their life when threatened, they were incredibly reactive and responsive and didnt care about insulting lock-town players when they disliked them.... My read aside, meta literally clears them.
- not SvS with NPOM? (voted him in #376, when the thread was in literal chaos).
Most of Lunar’s content is just... straight to the point. They explained things pretty much only when they needed to and just focused on doing their own thing the majority of the time.
More often than not, I found that that’s townie behavior.
The main strategy as scum is to just... push someone to get a mis-lynch + explain their reads so that people can town-read them for it
Lunar showed multiple times that they CAN explain their reads well (#1030, #1033, #1183, #1301, #1335, etc). They had no trouble writing longer analysis, acting emotional nor strongly criticizing people who scum-read them.
Them not doing that and just poking people here and there for the majority of D1 was most definitely something they chose, not sth they were unable to do.
Being able to get town-read easily, yet not giving a crap is townie.
Being able to vote on easy mis-lynches, yet keeping their options open and checking what they could do by changing their vote, is townie.
Voting ONLY on valid wagons and ignoring any obvtown wagons from the very start, is townie.
Their early behavior just makes a lot of sense coming from a townie who
-only talks about the things they consider “important”
-literally couldn’t write anything “important” because they weren’t able to get confident reads that early (so they just kept poking people here and there)
I mostly think Town is way off-base and Mafia is sitting and laughing at us.
#436
D1 suspects before this post: NPOM, Frogger, amelie, trendal and bugspray.
IF Lunar is scum, there can be only 1 scum on that list.
Being unsatisfied with the thread-state, constantly poking around (changing his vote) and not just easily settling on a mis-lynch wagon is townie.
Lunar’s progression early on just makes a lot of sense from a town pov.
In post 529, Lunar Martian wrote:My aims are finding the Mafia. OWER is a fine vote. I think Luca is better. There's plenty of time.
I don't like that you're trying to blatantly manipulate my vote into being on one of the popular trains.
That was written after Frogger’s wall, when Lunar was getting heavily scum-read.
Not being afraid to strongly criticize someone who was pretty much lock-gowned by everyone is a good sign.
In post 588, Lunar Martian wrote:I'm being pushed to claim without any reason why people think I'm Mafia other than I wasn't posting for a few days while I was away. If that's pretty typical of this site just kill me now and I'll go elsewhere.
locktown
This is genuine. Mentioning leaving the forum is not sth people lie about.
This obviously hints to them genuinely not understanding the scum-reads on him, which generally comes from town more often than scum.
Being so “ok” with dying isn’t common for scum either.
like, just c’mon
In post 590, Luca Blight wrote:And if you’re not gonna bother to engage with me about your thoughts then what do you expect me (or anyone else who SR’s you) to do here exactly?
You’re crying woe is me but not pushing in any direction. Have any of your reads changed recently? How do you feel about a Bugs elim?
Don't ask questions I've already answered. Read what I've written already. This isn't real engagement. You aren't doing anything. You're trying to look busy.
good reaction under pressure. It really feels like he was genuinely frustrated with the push on him + genuinely unwilling to “comply” in order to get town-read
This is not the attitude of someone whose only goal is to survive
The rest of their posts are just salty. They aren’t good and reading them makes even my head hurt but, considering his play style, they’re probably NAI.
In post 1331, Lunar Martian wrote:Frogster as someone who seems incredibly prone to confirmation bias, I think maybe you should be extra careful with reaction tests. Either you are a Mafia God who basically solved the game Day 1, or you saw exactly what you wanted to see from that test. I still think you're more likely to be Town than Mafia,
but I feel like you're verging on being a liability.
another really good post
Considering that Lunar is a player that only writes what he needs to, without bothering with fluff or tiny details, calling Frogger a “liability” shouldn’t come from scum imo.
If frogger’s reads are incorrect, this post is obviously townie.
If frogger’s reads are correct and Lunar was precisely aware of that, I don’t think he would have even thought of using that word. This would be getting close to writing a personal insult for no reason (from his pov).
This should ONLY come from someone who doesn’t have TMI imo.
Lunar is getting close to lock town imo. His posts are largely imperfect but there were multiple hints towards him just not trying to fake them... and I really can’t imagine some of the posts I quoted above being fake
PLEASE read them and let’s just end this charade.
Lunar is town, Frogger is town, NPOM’s replacement is town, galron is town
there’s 1 scum among [bugs, luca] and 1 among [gamma, over].
From your pov, I should be in the last bracket as well.
That’s all there is to this.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:32 pm
by ejjinami
I’m sorry for being rude btw. One of my highest town-reads getting tunneled and scum-read by everyone I interact with is........
honestly a bit annoying.
If I acted a bit over the top, I apologize for it. I’m aware that I just ignored some of your reads, which might have been rude. Most of the arguments I’ve seen were just simply... not strong enough, which is my subjective opinion.
If any of this felt like I was looking down on your reads, I didn’t mean it.
Please just verify what I was talking about
It CAN be verified so just please, please, please do.
If you disagree with this opinion as well, let’s talk. As long as it’s a friendly conversation and we both openly listen to each other’s arguments, I’m all for it
Lunar was never close to being eliminated in that game, so they never needed to deviate from being 'nice'. In this game they were ran up to E-1 for what they seemed to believe was bad reasons, so that explains why they would be more hostile in their response.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:38 pm
by Luca Blight
Never close to being eliminated until the Tracker had a guilty on them, anyway.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:40 pm
by ejjinami
In post 1642, Luca Blight wrote:Lunar was never close to being eliminated in that game, so they never needed to deviate from being 'nice'. In this game they were ran up to E-1 for what they seemed to believe was bad reasons, so that explains why they would be more hostile in their response.
no, it doesn’t.
Faking emotions is not that easy. Them being able to do that already is townie
besides, I’m not talking about one instance, they did it over and over and over.
They could have responded to scum-reads with just “explanations” here but they often chose to retaliate, even if the person they were talking to was a general lock townie
They did NOT do that in their scum game.
You really can’t say that that’s NAI
Just compare their meta, please.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:42 pm
by ejjinami
and that was not the only point I made. If you think lunar is scum, please comment on my old read on them.
I posted it in a spoiler above
unless you somehow undermine that, I really don’t see a possibility of them flipping scum
especially since my thoughts are pretty much confirmed by meta.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:42 pm
by Luca Blight
They don't have to fake emotions, they would probably be angry as either alignment being ran up to E-1 for 'bad reasons'.
I was in their scum game, so please don't ask me to compare meta. They were never under pressure that game.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:46 pm
by Luca Blight
I did the same thing in a previous scum game. Another player hard-pushed me for not being very involved early on, so I bit back hard which brought about a prolonged 1v1 where they ended up TR'ing me. Being aggressive as scum isn't hard to do, and you don't need to fake emotions as it sucks being SR as either alignment.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:50 pm
by Luca Blight
In post 1645, ejjinami wrote:and that was not the only point I made. If you think lunar is scum, please comment on my old read on them.
I posted it in a spoiler above
I'm really not in the mood to read walls of text right now, but at a glance it seems to all be based around the same thing - being hard, aggressive etc. I've already explained why this isn't a reliable reason to TR someone. If there's something unrelated to this in your reasoning then please highlight it for me.
Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:50 pm
by ejjinami
In post 1646, Luca Blight wrote:They don't have to fake emotions, they would probably be angry as either alignment being ran up to E-1 for 'bad reasons'.
I was in their scum game, so please don't ask me to compare meta. They were never under pressure that game.
that’s just an excuse not to read them.
I disagree
the intensity of their anger does not make sense if coming from scum
A townie would know that all reads on them are bullshit, scum- not.
a player who tends to be nicer as scum, who cares about explaining their progression more often does so because of the pressure they feel to get town-read
The lack of that exact pressure made them behave as chaotically as they did in this game.
The lack of that pressure made them switch their vote multiple times without caring how the townies think about them
compare how they show their emotions here and in their scum game. They were very toned down and showed only “controlled” emotions in their posts
Even besides their emotions close to L-1, the emotions in their posts here were much more raw. there’s no sense of them working on their tone the entire time, they just went with what they thought
and THAT’s townie