California Trilogy: City of Angels - On Camera (Game Over)

[Talitha]

If that person who explained the game is also the safe-keeper of ALL the information that the players playing the game wish they had and are striving to find out, that person should not under any circumstances enter into public discussions unnecessarily. In mafia the mod is not and cannot be a participant in the out-playing of the game, which in mafia takes the form of discussion (and action).

[Talitha]

The modkill discussion introduced more information into the game via players' thoughts and opinions. This is my play-style... I don't often PM the mod as town, because trying to find out what other players think and know about the game gives good information and the mod can always be consulted later if the players are unable to resolve an issue or question themselves. This situation was a reasonably effective way for me to test my town-read on CKD and gather reactions from others. It is an opportunity that I would have lost if the mod had stepped in and shut it down. Furthermore, feigning ignorance is a tactic I might use as town or scum for many reasons and I would hate a mod to jump in, thinking they were doing me a favour by clarifying publically.

[petroleumjelly]

I still disagree.

The purpose of a mod once a game has begun is to (i) keep the game flowing, and (ii) make sure players follow the rules. If the players are not understanding or appreciating the rules, it is your responsbility to step in.

Furthermore, whenever a mod steps in to do

anything

in a game, it

necessarily

affects the game. Even posting a vote count at an "inopportune" time for somebody can change people's opinions on players or strategies in a game. Announcing that you have prodded somebody has an effect on the game. Writing scenes that suggest things (like the scenes here where everybody's "secret word" was actually included in their death scene, making it easier for the scum to figure out the pattern) has an effect on the game. The fact that the mod has an effect is not a reason to not step into the game.

Obviously a mod would not step in a game to say "No, your strategy to block X and investigate Y is not foolproof, because...," but stepping into to say "Reminder: Any player who is modkilled loses the game" is doing nothing more than reiterating the rules as it pertains to the discussion.

When a mod steps in, it is never to do a "favor"; it is merely to clarify, feigned ignorance or not.

[Talitha]

In a game where deception is key and a tactic that anyone may use, how do you establish if "players are not understanding or appreciating the rules"? You would act on surface appearances? In mafia?

As an extreme example, if I'm scum and I manage to convince a townie that they must only vote with italics, and never in bold, and if it was clear in the posted rules that votes must be in bold, then I would probably be very angry if the mod "stepped in to clarify" further than simply not counting the vote.

Let the players play their game.

Also, a mod announcing that they've prodded someone, or posting a vote count is not likely to give clues to a player's alignment or motives. But any

mod response to current in-game discussions

can give such clues and should only be done if absolutely necessary.

And with that I should probably bow out of the conversation as I don't expect we'll find a common ground no matter how long we discuss!

[Talitha]

(That italics vote example was probably not a good example in this particular game with the extra rules and reminders around voting that we had, but I'm too lazy to think of a different one).

[ortolan]

I agree with Talitha on this point (surprisingly enough). Especially in a game where the rules already were: don't ask questions of the mod in-thread, do so via pm, even stuff like the mod making clarification posts in-thread can potentially impact the outcome of the game or give away things which aren't intended (e.g. the mod can give away a lot of things unintentionally just by the context and manner in which they answer a question). Also, I assume in Ebohanar or whatever the modkill rules were also: if you're modkilled, you lose, but that didn't stop people still using it as a strategy. I did not just come up with the idea out of the blue, it was based on precedent.

Wish we could have seen what happened if we stuck to the original plan of lynching you and Hewitt 1 & 2, Kise Probably we would have been #3, but you never know. Yours and Hewitt's flips might have given us some cred.

I feel like we could have gotten MO if we'd lynched hewitt and StarKiss first, as long as you didn't keep your campaign to lynch me. I think lynching you was our biggest mistake in the endgame, though I understand why it happened. Oh well.

Yes, I am also very sorry for tunneling on you, that was another mistake of mine this game. Ho ho ho.

[Shanba]

Aaaargh, it's finished!

I died too early, this was a game I was really enjoying. I did follow after I died, but not avidly - was quite busy at times and frequently lost the flow of the game. I think we made quite a good hydra, and I'm also fairly pleased with our scumhunting given how early in the game it was.

Following along after I died, it was unbelievably frustrating that Thok was never lynched. OTOH, I also became 100% convinced that Glork was scum too, after I died, and seeing him survive for so long was also frustrating.

There was a sense, looking back, that this game was won by scum around day three ish. When elmosaurian and Gaspar managed to get themselves in hot water, and most of the scumgroup had survived the frantic early stages with little scrutiny, it was always going to be an easy ride. From there, town kinda lost focus, lost direction; either through the red herrings of the setup or the red herrings of the scum. There was a kind of rally late on, but it was never enough. We were so far behind at that point.

The thing that really bugged me about this setup is the feeling that we, the town, were basically shafted in the on camera part of the game. I had assumed all the decisions would be deterministic - either there was a right answer or a wrong answer - and we would be fighting against scum deception and scum lies to try and work out what those answers were. Instead, it felt like we were also playing against the forces of chance, too. This was annoying - we could have played perfectly on stage and only received the worst setup. As is, with inevitable townie slip ups and some clever scum play, we ended up behind in both games. (Essentially, I had assumed that scum would get the choices they wanted either by getting us to disbelieve a townie advocate or believe a scum advocate.) I still don't really see the logic behind making it a complete gamble each time.

Some very silly setup specualtion was floating around at times. When the cult idea was around, people started passionately discussing it like it was actually useful to do so; in my view, when you're faced with that kind of dilemma and have no real way of assessing which side is right, the correct thing to do is to keep scumhunting and hope for the best. It all washes out in the end. Very rarely have I seen a cult win before it becomes obvious, for whatever reason, that there is a cult. Besides which, though thrid part and mafia may give off slightly different scumtells, it's not significant to the point where it should have a mssive impact on your play: for example, a lurker is likely to be a scumbag and whether he's a mafia scumbag or a cult leader scumbag, he's still one more that you have to lynch.

Also, the claiming of secret codes was badly done; the order it should have been done in was that all players roleclaimed, then we see if there are any claimed roles that use the words, and if not then keep them hidden and if so then you assess whether the claimee is town. If all claimed roles seem to get no advantage out of the secret roles, then how are town ever going to get any benefit out of them? Unless you believe hat simple intrinsic knowledge f them will be helpful - in that case, the sample size remaining at the time of claim was too small, as there were only x townies left out of a huge number. Essentially, someone should have realised that when no one seemed to have a use for the secret words that they were either a red herring or a bonus for scum. That's my two cents, anyway.

MO I never suspected really at any point until the endgame rolled around and he did that dodgy hammer. Similarly, I never suspected DGB. Scum played fabulously well.

Ooh, that reminds me, one last thing about the setup. I have to admit, I'm a massive fan of setups that attempt to mislead the town to the extent that the best method of winning becomes once again the simple art of scumhunting. In my view, this should be the ultimate aim of large theme games; the complication that gives way to simplicity when it becomes clear that the role interactions are

too

complicated to work out - obviously that is incredibly hard to do right. I tried something similar to the misleading nature of the setup in my mini theme that I ran, frogs mafia, so I appreciate the difficulty. However, I do feel that the side part, the onstage thread, detracted from that. I'm very glad I was never onstage.

- The frog part in the bagel eating cowfrog

[Shanba]

oh, and we the hydra had a qt somewhere, which I oculd dig up if anyone cared.

[mith]

pj, fair enough on the MeMeMeet game (though I think it was far more justified in that case than here - it was clear upfront that that game would have wacky stuff going on, and it was true to the theme... in one of Pooky's games at MeMeMeet, I had the ability to recruit dead or even non- players). For alignment-changing, I intend to disclaim up front whether it is a possibility (and I don't expect it to be in the foreseeable future, though three years from now, who knows?)... among other changes to my ruleset, like the whole modkill thing.

Merry Christmas, everyone!

(If I have anything more to say, it will be after New Year's. But this is a very constructive post-game.)

[curiouskarmadog]

in reference to my "scum claim", please read my post right before the claim with the claim itself. It was another attempt to scum hunt. The "claim" was obviously a fake one. I wanted the town to see who "read it" for face value. Who wanted the town to believe that they thought the post was an actual scum claim...star and dgb were the only ones ( i think) who mentioned they believed the claim or were going to vote me for it.

[Yosarian2]

That was an incredibly frustating game. No one seemed to listen to a word I said, and I seemed to get lynched for absoluly no reason after catching scum day 1. It seemed like I was getting lynched just because it seemed like the thing to do, not because anyone actually had made any kind of argument.

Also, I missed most of this game, but CKD got lynched? Really? I thought he was incredibly obv town all game.

On a side note, this game maintains the pattern that every single time I have ever gotten lynched as town, the town has lost.

[hewitt]

knowing now that starkiss was scum i wish we had gotten lynched one-two.

[MrBuddyLee]

Thanks, mith. This was a relatively fun game to watch from the sidelines. It sucks that we had to play Lance Ito, as our inscrutability was clearly what got us killed. Normally, I'm not mistaken for obvtown on day two.

Complicated games are still fun and are still mafia as long as people remember:

1) not to take them too seriously
and
2) to keep scumhunting regardless of other complications

Every additional complication actually adds to the topics you can press in the pursuit of scumhunting.

I haven't seen many complaints about balance, so congratulations on more or less nailing that in a complex setup.

[curiouskarmadog]

actually you were killed because you were so boldy wrong.

[curiouskarmadog]

boldly

[ShadowLurker]

Oops, didn't see this game was over.

Well, the masonry definitely helped take a lot of insaneness out of this game for me, although we did have some pretty convoluted speculation at times. (For example, at the start of the game, after Glork posted his hewitt is 99% confirmed thing, sottyrulez and I thought that maybe they were another mason pair and were suspicious that Glork was a scum mason)

The really annoying thing about this game is I was extremely close to stunting On Stage for Talilan as soon as I saw the people in the Scene. With Talilan dead and Innocent in the Endgame, I would have certainly pushed for StarKiss first as I thought hewitt was pretty protown. If Talilan was alive I would have probably pushed for her first though seeing as GnB never fired her and some of her scene decisions seemed sketchy to me.

I really think it was actually the Assistant Producer who let us down in this game. Panzerjager really made terrible picks to hold the roles and his unnecessary drawing attention to the fact I had information from Off Stage was really stupid.

Good game scum.

[Glork]

Ugh. I could probably write for the next couple of hours about everything that frustrated me about this game, but I don't like making large negative posts, so I'm going to try to keep this short (by my standards), sweet, and constructive.

First and foremost, I am extremely unhappy with the way I played. After a ~6 month hiatus, I probably should have played a Newbie game or two to shake off the proveribal rust. That's not to say that the scums didn't play well (because they -- especially MO and G&B -- played very well). But my failures are my own, and any excuse I were to offer would be just that... an excuse.

Secondly, on-scene mechanics/rules/flavor. I, Glork(Gaspar) was in the game, there was a character named Glork, a character named Angel, several characters which were angels, and people's names/jobs/characters kept changing. A number of players, including myself, became confused at different times to the point where I completely gave up trying to deal with flavor at all. I understand that flavor is important to you, mith, and it is important to me, as well. But I'm a firm believer that its only purpose should serve to enhance gameplay, and in this particular game, I feel that it was very detrimental to gameplay.

Thirdly, the SMG thing. I understand that red herrings exist, and I'm not against them in principle. But this felt unfair. Maybe it's just because we came out on the losing end. Afterall, I certainly didn't complain about taking advantage of the "scum don't get a kill Night 4 in Space Monkey Mafia."

Fourthly, ortolan. I'm not going to rant and rave at you, because I don't think it's going to change the way you feel about how you played, and I doubt it will have an impact on your mannerisms in the future. But I will say that I don't plan on playing another game with you until you have demonstrated that you are willing to accept that A) you might be wrong when you play mafia; and B) protown players will suspect you -- and often for completely valid reasons.

Fifthly, as poorly as I played, the one thing I was probably most passionate about is the one thing I think I did very well, and I need to vent at not having been listened to. For several pages at the start of the game, I argued that our primary job was to hunt scum. I even tried to persuade everyone else that scumhunting should be our ONLY job. Instead, the game was quickly dominated by mechanics and setup, and scumhunting fell by the wayside. Now that people are saying "we should have stuck to scumhunting," I can't help but wonder why people got so upset with me when I stressed it at the beginning of the game.

That's about it. Good game, scums. You clearly deserved this one.

[ortolan]

Fourthly, ortolan. I'm not going to rant and rave at you, because I don't think it's going to change the way you feel about how you played, and I doubt it will have an impact on your mannerisms in the future. But I will say that I don't plan on playing another game with you until you have demonstrated that you are willing to accept that A) you might be wrong when you play mafia; and B) protown players will suspect you -- and often for completely valid reasons.

But I will say that I don't plan on playing another game with you until you have demonstrated that you are willing to accept that A) you might be wrong when you play mafia; and B) protown players will suspect you -- and often for completely valid reasons.

[MrBuddyLee]

actually you were killed because you were so boldy wrong.

Pretty sure you're incorrect about this, as I've read the relevant 400 posts in the scum QT, but if it makes you feel better to egotrip that scum killed us to save you, enjoy the delusion.

[Glork]

Fourthly, ortolan. I'm not going to rant and rave at you, because I don't think it's going to change the way you feel about how you played, and I doubt it will have an impact on your mannerisms in the future. But I will say that I don't plan on playing another game with you until you have demonstrated that you are willing to accept that A) you might be wrong when you play mafia; and B) protown players will suspect you -- and often for completely valid reasons.

But I will say that I don't plan on playing another game with you until you have demonstrated that you are willing to accept that A) you might be wrong when you play mafia; and B) protown players will suspect you -- and often for completely valid reasons.

Considering I decided that you/Talilan were probably protown (at least a scene BEFORE I was lynched, I might add), I'd say that I demonstrated both of those things, champ.

[VP Baltar]

If Talilan was alive I would have probably pushed for her first though seeing as GnB never fired her and some of her scene decisions seemed sketchy to me.

This was really the only reason I thought Talilan needed to be lynched. I still don't understand why GaB didn't take the spot before endgame.

I really think it was actually the Assistant Producer who let us down in this game. Panzerjager really made terrible picks to hold the roles and his unnecessary drawing attention to the fact I had information from Off Stage was really stupid.

Yeah, there were so many better choices. I don't understand his thought process at all.

[curiouskarmadog]

actually you were killed because you were so boldy wrong.

Pretty sure you're incorrect about this, as I've read the relevant 400 posts in the scum QT, but if it makes you feel better to egotrip that scum killed us to save you, enjoy the delusion.

like a warm blanket

what post of your in particular did you nail scum?

I really think it was actually the Assistant Producer who let us down in this game. Panzerjager really made terrible picks to hold the roles and his unnecessary drawing attention to the fact I had information from Off Stage was really stupid.

I agree with this statement.

[Zachrulez]

Fourthly, ortolan. I'm not going to rant and rave at you, because I don't think it's going to change the way you feel about how you played, and I doubt it will have an impact on your mannerisms in the future. But I will say that I don't plan on playing another game with you until you have demonstrated that you are willing to accept that A) you might be wrong when you play mafia; and B) protown players will suspect you -- and often for completely valid reasons.

Talilan = honorary scum. They pushed so hard for your lynch and then acted all shocked and depressed like they couldn't go on playing because they were so wrong. It was one of the suspicions I never got around to sharing before we were nked.

Fifthly, as poorly as I played, the one thing I was probably most passionate about is the one thing I think I did very well, and I need to vent at not having been listened to. For several pages at the start of the game, I argued that our primary job was to hunt scum. I even tried to persuade everyone else that scumhunting should be our ONLY job. Instead, the game was quickly dominated by mechanics and setup, and scumhunting fell by the wayside. Now that people are saying "we should have stuck to scumhunting," I can't help but wonder why people got so upset with me when I stressed it at the beginning of the game.

I agree that little focus seemed to be put on scumhunting. I was trying to treat on camera and off with equal importance, but I think a lot of people got sucked into the on camera dynamic.

This is bringing back depressing memories of scene 5 (I think it was scene 5 anyway.) Where we sat on camera, not able to try to push a GNB lynch in anyway, and pretty much helplessly had to sit back and watch you be lynched instead of her... soooo depressing.

[Zachrulez]

Also Glork, for whatever it's worth I don't really remember you playing all that badly. For the most part I think your lynch can be put in the same class as Elmosaurian. It was just scum rhetoric ramped up the max, and the townie under attack was just so confused with how they were being so heavily suspected because a lot of it wasn't rational. Under that kind of fire you just got a little bit lost and it's something that's totally understandable under the circumstances.

I think those lynches pointed to the scum pretty clearly in most cases, (Except for Talilan who for the life of me I can't understand how they flipped town.) but it just seemed like there weren't nearly enough town players paying attention.

[Thesp]

Fourthly, ortolan. I'm not going to rant and rave at you, because I don't think it's going to change the way you feel about how you played, and I doubt it will have an impact on your mannerisms in the future. But I will say that I don't plan on playing another game with you until you have demonstrated that you are willing to accept that A) you might be wrong when you play mafia; and B) protown players will suspect you -- and often for completely valid reasons.

Also Glork, for whatever it's worth I don't really remember you playing all that badly. For the most part I think your lynch can be put in the same class as Elmosaurian. It was just scum rhetoric ramped up the max, and the townie under attack was just so confused with how they were being so heavily suspected because a lot of it wasn't rational. Under that kind of fire you just got a little bit lost and it's something that's totally understandable under the circumstances.

I think those lynches pointed to the scum pretty clearly in most cases, (Except for Talilan who for the life of me I can't understand how they flipped town.) but it just seemed like there weren't nearly enough town players paying attention.

I had these same feelings as well.