Mainstream Mafia II: D&D Edition [FIN]

[Menalque]

But the main value system at the moment is one reflecting capitalist values, like competition, independence, ruthlessness, mistrust.

You expect us to make people not greedy simply proposing a different value system?

I expect that the greed which is so rampant in society would be gradually diminished through building systems that encourage local participation in decisions and build trust among members of different groups through a gradual transition from capitalism —> socialism —> communism.

Altruism is pretty hard. I can see cooperation being sustainable within groups of up to 9 people according J.J. Sutherland, but after that it becomes harder and likely will result in a competition for credits or blameshifting

I mean I don’t think that really address my point though. I don’t know what you’re referencing, but I would guess a sociologist/psychologist? What context were they operating in for the experiment that suggested this?

[Formerfish]

Like basically every capitalist society has taxes and public services of some sort.

I agree, and those are socialist ideals and policies. It depends on what part of the scale you are on.

Some socialist policies do not a socialist society make. It’s like you have some socialist policies because they’re literally necessary to make life liveable in societies of millions of people and to keep people sufficiently content with the status quo that they don’t turn to more radical solutions.

I never said we were socialist, i said we have socialist tendencies and the term gets fear mongered by the right because it threatens the status quo.

I mean its going to be a moot point anyways because by 2050 the US is going to be a majority minority.

[Creature]

But the main value system at the moment is one reflecting capitalist values, like competition, independence, ruthlessness, mistrust.

You expect us to make people not greedy simply proposing a different value system?

I expect that the greed which is so rampant in society would be gradually diminished through building systems that encourage local participation in decisions and build trust among members of different groups through a gradual transition from capitalism —> socialism —> communism.

Altruism is pretty hard. I can see cooperation being sustainable within groups of up to 9 people according J.J. Sutherland, but after that it becomes harder and likely will result in a competition for credits or blameshifting

If everybody received the same amount for the work, what would stop people from going lazy?

[Donempire]

I didnt know there were 2 different plans. Which do you think is better? I only knew about medicare for all but healthcare sounds even better if at the expense of medical professionals who already dont have money problems

[Menalque]

But the main value system at the moment is one reflecting capitalist values, like competition, independence, ruthlessness, mistrust.

You expect us to make people not greedy simply proposing a different value system?

I expect that the greed which is so rampant in society would be gradually diminished through building systems that encourage local participation in decisions and build trust among members of different groups through a gradual transition from capitalism —> socialism —> communism.

Altruism is pretty hard. I can see cooperation being sustainable within groups of up to 9 people according J.J. Sutherland, but after that it becomes harder and likely will result in a competition for credits or blameshifting

If everybody received the same amount for the work, what would stop people from going lazy?

Why do we assume that the primary motive of people would be making as much money as possible in a future system? Why is it assumed people would only be productive for salary?

[Creature]

If you remove the free market it's bye bye social programs together

Why can you not have a relatively free market but where workers are the owners of businesses and therefore receive profits directly?

Profits usually go to the company itself already, if it makes 300 billion in a year it doesn't go to the CEO's pockets directly, but is rather saved for future company plans.

[Creature]

I'm not opposed to flexible wage based on profit, but I assume not everyone can receive the same slice of profit

[Creature]

Even if everyone did, I assume the inflation would be rampant as a result

[Creature]

I think there's credit based on amount of skills and effort needed

Being CEO isn't simply sitting in a chair and watching your workers struggle

[Menalque]

If you remove the free market it's bye bye social programs together

Why can you not have a relatively free market but where workers are the owners of businesses and therefore receive profits directly?

Profits usually go to the company itself already, if it makes 300 billion in a year it doesn't go to the CEO's pockets directly, but is rather saved for future company plans.

Right, but who is making the decisions about where the money goes? Just because companies decide on reinvestment to try and seek greater future profits doesn’t change the fact that the direction of those profits and control over them is by a tiny number of individuals, very often.

[Formerfish]

I didnt know there were 2 different plans. Which do you think is better? I only knew about medicare for all but healthcare sounds even better if at the expense of medical professionals who already dont have money problems

Sorry, they are the same thing, i just called it a different name.

Its like Obamacare and the affordable care act, same thing.

[Creature]

There's also that flexible wages can sometimes go under the necessary

State would need to get rid of a lot of rights the salary already brings (healthcare tax, housing tax, etc which part goes to the government)

[Menalque]

I think there's credit based on amount of skills and effort needed

Being CEO isn't simply sitting in a chair and watching your workers struggle

I never said that it was. But without the workers there wouldn’t be a company. Why does what the CEO do merit a greater reward than them?

[Creature]

But the main value system at the moment is one reflecting capitalist values, like competition, independence, ruthlessness, mistrust.

You expect us to make people not greedy simply proposing a different value system?

I expect that the greed which is so rampant in society would be gradually diminished through building systems that encourage local participation in decisions and build trust among members of different groups through a gradual transition from capitalism —> socialism —> communism.

Altruism is pretty hard. I can see cooperation being sustainable within groups of up to 9 people according J.J. Sutherland, but after that it becomes harder and likely will result in a competition for credits or blameshifting

I mean I don’t think that really address my point though. I don’t know what you’re referencing, but I would guess a sociologist/psychologist? What context were they operating in for the experiment that suggested this?

J.J. Sutherland is the creator of the Scrum system, one of its aspects involve cooperative teams, but it ranges from 5 to 9 members and more than that would hurt productivity without a clear leader

[Donempire]

Why do we assume that the primary motive of people would be making as much money as possible in a future system? Why is it assumed people would only be productive for salary?

Because it is. Besides maybe tech people ta the top, artists, and basically professionals most peole work for money. Thats maybe %10 of the population once you add in people who have a dream job AND have got it. Also people are simply unqualified to do their dream jobs and they resort to menial labor that they dont care about. How % of amazon workers actually enjoy theie jobs for example?
Anyway, point is, most people are lazy and will try to get people to work fkr them.

[Donempire]

I think there's credit based on amount of skills and effort needed

Being CEO isn't simply sitting in a chair and watching your workers struggle

I never said that it was. But without the workers there wouldn’t be a company. Why does what the CEO do merit a greater reward than them?

Because of the risk they took doing it. A menial laborer knows what hes getting at the end of the month. Someone putting all their chips onto a new fad doesnt.

[Creature]

But the main value system at the moment is one reflecting capitalist values, like competition, independence, ruthlessness, mistrust.

You expect us to make people not greedy simply proposing a different value system?

I expect that the greed which is so rampant in society would be gradually diminished through building systems that encourage local participation in decisions and build trust among members of different groups through a gradual transition from capitalism —> socialism —> communism.

Altruism is pretty hard. I can see cooperation being sustainable within groups of up to 9 people according J.J. Sutherland, but after that it becomes harder and likely will result in a competition for credits or blameshifting

If everybody received the same amount for the work, what would stop people from going lazy?

Why do we assume that the primary motive of people would be making as much money as possible in a future system? Why is it assumed people would only be productive for salary?

Money is only valuable because it guarantees you material gains, such huge houses, cars, electronics, expensive meals. Even if you get rid of money, people would still be driven for material gains.

Also people are naturally lazy and they only put more effort when they have an actual motive, such as one driven by material gains. Why would you put a lot of effort if someone else is gaining the same with an half-assed effort?

[Menalque]

But the main value system at the moment is one reflecting capitalist values, like competition, independence, ruthlessness, mistrust.

You expect us to make people not greedy simply proposing a different value system?

I expect that the greed which is so rampant in society would be gradually diminished through building systems that encourage local participation in decisions and build trust among members of different groups through a gradual transition from capitalism —> socialism —> communism.

Altruism is pretty hard. I can see cooperation being sustainable within groups of up to 9 people according J.J. Sutherland, but after that it becomes harder and likely will result in a competition for credits or blameshifting

I mean I don’t think that really address my point though. I don’t know what you’re referencing, but I would guess a sociologist/psychologist? What context were they operating in for the experiment that suggested this?

J.J. Sutherland is the creator of the Scrum system, one of its aspects involve cooperative teams, but it ranges from 5 to 9 members and more than that would hurt productivity without a clear leader

What is his background?

And I mean, okay, but I’m not really saying that you can’t have temporary leaders for certain tasks. It’s not like football under socialism suddenly don’t have a captain. But having temporary leaders for certain tasks is very different from entrenched hierarchies.

[Menalque]

Why do we assume that the primary motive of people would be making as much money as possible in a future system? Why is it assumed people would only be productive for salary?

Because it is. Besides maybe tech people ta the top, artists, and basically professionals most peole work for money. Thats maybe %10 of the population once you add in people who have a dream job AND have got it. Also people are simply unqualified to do their dream jobs and they resort to menial labor that they dont care about. How % of amazon workers actually enjoy theie jobs for example?
Anyway, point is, most people are lazy and will try to get people to work fkr them.

I mean most people have to work to survive. If we were meeting everyone’s basic material needs, what do you think is going to happen? There aren’t going to be any more artists/designers/sports players/inventors?

How many inventions came about from people clearly knowing what they wanted to create vs tinkering and fucking around and accidentally creating something of immense value?

[Creature]

If you remove the free market it's bye bye social programs together

Why can you not have a relatively free market but where workers are the owners of businesses and therefore receive profits directly?

Profits usually go to the company itself already, if it makes 300 billion in a year it doesn't go to the CEO's pockets directly, but is rather saved for future company plans.

Right, but who is making the decisions about where the money goes? Just because companies decide on reinvestment to try and seek greater future profits doesn’t change the fact that the direction of those profits and control over them is by a tiny number of individuals, very often.

Would you accept a country ran by 50% of the people being Trump supporters willing to call illegal immigrants dangerous people? Not everybody is fit to govern something, hence why we trust a few select people to run something.

Though, lately the pyramid is being inverted so the CEO gotta work for his/her executives, who gotta work for their managers, who gotta work for their workers. It's like reverse hierarchy. Someone needs to have an overview of the system to tell others where to go next.

[Creature]

I think there's credit based on amount of skills and effort needed

Being CEO isn't simply sitting in a chair and watching your workers struggle

I never said that it was. But without the workers there wouldn’t be a company. Why does what the CEO do merit a greater reward than them?

Without the nurses there wouldn't be a hospital either, but a doctor there has a bigger influence.

Although the CEO doesn't put as much physical effort as the workers, he or she gotta put more mental effort and has a larger influence over the company. I'd say very few people are able to handle a lot of risks daily managing a big company.

[Menalque]

I think there's credit based on amount of skills and effort needed

Being CEO isn't simply sitting in a chair and watching your workers struggle

I never said that it was. But without the workers there wouldn’t be a company. Why does what the CEO do merit a greater reward than them?

Because of the risk they took doing it. A menial laborer knows what hes getting at the end of the month. Someone putting all their chips onto a new fad doesnt.

I’m sorry, but I don’t think that’s a satisfactory answer, and it certainly isn’t for the level of discrepancy that we have in income/wealth between different people in a business.

Fundamentally, the business would not be profitable without people doing the day to day of selling or working. If you have a business that is profitable because 100 cleaners clean 10 houses each a day for £10 per house to the business, and the cleaners get paid £50 per day while the CEO makes £5000 a day, you have a situation where the value creation is not going to the people actually creating it.

[Creature]

What is his background?

Well, he noticed the companies needed a more flexible system and designed something for it. Many companies have benefitted a lot from that system.

And I mean, okay, but I’m not really saying that you can’t have temporary leaders for certain tasks. It’s not like football under socialism suddenly don’t have a captain. But having temporary leaders for certain tasks is very different from entrenched hierarchies.

I don't really see the problem, but if I build a company myself, I don't want to see myself stripped from my powers and/or see it bankrupt to an incompetent leader. I think it's like a house, you can't just share it with anyone.

[Creature]

I support giving the opportunity to people to raise their own business though.

[Creature]

I just don't see it as a classroom where anyone can be voted as the leader.