Mafiascum.net

Day 1, Vc 49

PrideandJoy (1) -

Amrun

ooba (4) -

PrideandJoy, AGar, StupendousMan, Goat on a Raft

Thor665 (6) -

elleheathen, kanyeknowsbest, Benmage, SafetyDance, Zdenek, Alfred Borden

Amrun (1) -

Thor665

SafetyDance (9) -

Syryana, Cephrir, Tammy, Shadoweh, displaced, Nautilius, ooba, Messiah Complex, quadz08

Not voting (3)-

macmollie, Tierce, Garruk Relentless

With 24 alive it takes 13 votes to lynch

• Deadline Date: 1st of October at 17:05 EDT
  
• Deadline Countdown: (expired on 2013-10-01 17:05:01)
  
• Thor665 is V/la.

In post 1668, Alfred Borden wrote:P-edit: Really kanye? In that one scum game I looked at, this dude pretty much awkwardly clammed up under pressure. The reaction here is like night and day.

i dont try to meta players i have zero prior experience with and as such am judging him in the vacuum of this game, so id have to take your word that this is completely contradictory to what hed do as scum.

\o\ /o/ 7TH HOUR WAGON FORCE ASSEMBLE! FORM OF A TOWNIE TRAIN!
Look you gotta decide now which of these guys you wanna flatline because if the wagon switches again you'll have a hella time getting it back off again.

Still think MC is town though. :>

In post 1671, Messiah Complex wrote:

In post 1669, Alfred Borden wrote:Tammy, if you read this, you need to seriously step away for a bit and calm down. This reminds me exactly of how mad I got at Saki in Xenologue to the point where I ended up not giving a shit about the dude's alignment and that ended up at least partially contributing to the loss there. Regfan went and pointed out every single one of Saki's towntells after it was over and I felt like an idiot (well, to a point).

SafetyDance just flat out isn't scum and I think you'll be able to see that once you go over this recent stuff again.

???

SD is doing everything he can to survive while depriving the town of as much information as possible <----scum mindset

Wrong.

He full claimed a WEAK role. Scum don't do that D1. They go zomg you can't lynch me I'm GOD!

I'll be content with an endgame I told you so.

In post 1672, Tierce wrote:Same thoughts on the reaction. It's especially the "I told you so" attitude. Why wouldn't he claim a role he thought had a better chance of escaping the lynch? Doesn't make sense, he doesn't seem like the kind of scum player who would do that as an extra layer of WIFOM.

I think Thor is Town--the stuff he's been accused at is the kind of thing he does regardless of alignment. Not voting there unless we need that vote by deadline.

Thoughts on Messiah Complex? 1671 bothers me, he's not looking deeply enough.

Damnit! thats what I just said.

Its the ninth hour... we don't have dillydallying time. Miller claims are always thorns in games, that cant live lategame... and this way we dont suffer anymore D1 claims.

In the words of Spock, it is most Logical.

In post 1674, Messiah Complex wrote:How am I not looking deeply enough Tierce? I'm looking at SD's content, or lack thereof. He has Syry as uber town and Thor as a policy lynch. He has no read on Ooba, the other main wagon. He has no read on you or Tammy, the two people who orchestrated the push on him just now. How is any of this coming from the mindset of "I'm town and about to die?"

It's not GOOD Town play. He's not a competent player who realized he needed to get all his ducks in a row and do the best for Town in his final hours. He chose differently, but it does not make it play coming from scum. He was aware his claim was not going to help him--why would someone who is for all practical effects a poor scum player not want a BETTER claim than what he claimed? Even if it is his actual scum role, I don't see how he wouldn't have dressed it up. JoATs are easy to "redesign" to suit your purposes. Look at 4nxi3ty's claim in ADwD. Couldn't resist the urge to make himself be the bestest looking JoAT as scum. SafetyDance went with what he had and keeps insisting this is not useful information for Town after giving it--scum would be showing how good he is for contributing this data. It doesn't make sense as scum.

PEdit: What Benedick said (again).

As for D1 claims, I don't really have a problem with those.

I want to check something, back in a moment.

In post 1672, Tierce wrote:I think Thor is Town--the stuff he's been accused at is the kind of thing he does regardless of alignment. Not voting there unless we need that vote by deadline.

Thoughts on Messiah Complex? 1671 bothers me, he's not looking deeply enough.

Ok, a couple of things:
1) Elaborate a bit on your Thor townread? You say a lot of the stuff he's done here he'd do regardless of alignment (and I agree) so what has you leaning town on him? (If you've already explained, link me to the posts, can't be assed to look atm.)
2) I haven't really given MC too much thought this game as I've been looking at other things with the limited time I've had and I don't think now is the time. I will say, though, that Desperado as either alignment does seem like the kind of guy who imposes higher standards of competency on players who just aren't all that competent from what little I remember/remains valid of his meta so I don't find that post to be all that interesting.

In post 1674, Messiah Complex wrote:If you feel confident enough in calling this a 1 to 1 situation then I have absolutely no issue making the argument that he's approaching the same situation differently with the knowledge of the previous game in mind. He got lynched after clamming up, right?

Except meta doesn't work that way -- you're implicitly making the argument that his meta is irrelevant because it is easily manipulable which is just wrong for a variety of reasons I don't have the time to get into now, not the least of which is Safety's competency (or lack thereof).

This is all but impossible to do on a phone. I need a favor: can someone go through Faraday and his hydras' games and see if he has millers? Check the role PMs, he might not call them millers explicitly. I'd like the accounts Faraday, Eddard Stark, The Baltimore Sun, Lost Butterfly and Vu checked for this. I don't think I missed any recent modding accounts, but please remind me if I did.


I'm on my phone, Empire. Please ISO me for Thor thoughts. IIRC it was a reaction to a certain point, can't quite remember.

In post 1681, Alfred Borden wrote:Except meta doesn't work that way -- you're implicitly making the argument that his meta is irrelevant because it is easily manipulable which is just wrong for a variety of reasons I don't have the time to get into now, not the least of which is Safety's competency (or lack thereof).

You don't have "meta" on SD, you have one game where he did this thing once.

SafetyDance is a human being who is obviously capable of adapting his persona on the internet. If you have a single game where he was pressured as scum and clammed up that JUST finished, you cannot definitively say "he will always clam up to pressure as scum unless he's REALLY improved." #1 it wouldn't require any improvement to identify this situation as similar to one in which he just failed and to react oppositely. #2 one game isn't a sample size. Maybe he had a bad day and couldn't handle it that game. Maybe maybe maybe.

In this game, he came back into a 60 page thread with a bullshit policy vote and then referred to himself as a policy lynch in an attempt to diffuse pressure on him, had to be goaded into claiming, refused to give reads even though he's resigned himself to death, and left with a promise not to return before deadline. He's scum.

- Des

In post 1682, Tierce wrote:This is all but impossible to do on a phone. I need a favor: can someone go through Faraday and his hydras' games and see if he has millers? Check the role PMs, he might not call them millers explicitly. I'd like the accounts Faraday, Eddard Stark, The Baltimore Sun, Lost Butterfly and Vu checked for this. I don't think I missed any recent modding accounts, but please remind me if I did.

I just scanned Faraday's wiki and there has been no Town Miller in any of his MS games (and there was definitely no miller in The Wire Season 1, only game modded under The Baltimore Sun account).

P-edit: Ok, if you actually want me to go ahead and fucking go through all of his scum games, I will in the one hour I have left to be awake.

^Inexperinced town tell breaking thru
pdeit:damnit^forMC

hey benny!

you. I like you.

I don't know how many times I have said on this site that the most important town skill a player can have is discerning the difference between town flail and scum flail.

I still think how somehow tammy's meta case based off of 1 game that she didn't even play when he was only the site for 2 months is somehow more valid than mine where I have played with him as scum, against him as scum and both of us town. but hey what the fuck do I know.

In post 1672, Tierce wrote:

In post 1668, Alfred Borden wrote:

Unvote

Oh my god, I want this guy to be scum so so fucking badly but I just can't bring myself to keep my vote on him. Based on what I know of him, I'll be absolutely fucking floored if he's reacting this way as scum.

Thor's probably the least bad of the major wagons right now since my last talk with 'marble had lessened my scumread on ooba considerably.

Vote: Thor

One of 'marble/myself will be around near deadline, I think, if anything happens.

P-edit: Really kanye? In that one scum game I looked at, this dude pretty much awkwardly clammed up under pressure. The reaction here is like night and day.

Same thoughts on the reaction. It's especially the "I told you so" attitude. Why wouldn't he claim a role he thought had a better chance of escaping the lynch? Doesn't make sense, he doesn't seem like the kind of scum player who would do that as an extra layer of WIFOM.

I think Thor is Town--the stuff he's been accused at is the kind of thing he does regardless of alignment. Not voting there unless we need that vote by deadline.

Thoughts on Messiah Complex?

1671 bothers me, he's not looking deeply enough

.

it bothers me too and if desp stopped and thought about it for a minute he would probably know why.

they are off of my like list.

VOTE: thor

Bah, VOTE: Thor.

In post 1684, Alfred Borden wrote:

In post 1682, Tierce wrote:This is all but impossible to do on a phone. I need a favor: can someone go through Faraday and his hydras' games and see if he has millers? Check the role PMs, he might not call them millers explicitly. I'd like the accounts Faraday, Eddard Stark, The Baltimore Sun, Lost Butterfly and Vu checked for this. I don't think I missed any recent modding accounts, but please remind me if I did.

I just scanned Faraday's wiki and there has been no Town Miller in any of his MS games (and there was definitely no miller in The Wire Season 1, only game modded under The Baltimore Sun account).

Can someone else please check this through the Search function on the forums? His wiki is outdated, IIRC.

In post 1674, Messiah Complex wrote:

In post 1673, Alfred Borden wrote:

In post 1670, Messiah Complex wrote:Meek players don't necessarily stay meek. "He clammed up under pressure that one time" doesn't mean he's obvtown now. Look at the content of his reaction and really evaluate your townread.

Except the scum game I looked at (same one mollie linked) happened recently (it began on June 28th).

Unless you're going to make the argument that he's improved his scum game to the point where he's able to react like this now as scum,

this argument doesn't hold water.

P-edit: Jesus christ, I literally saw this guy get accused of and wagoned for doing the exact same thing as town in The Wire. I townread him correctly there and I'm pretty damn sure I'm right now.

P-editx2: I don't know Tierce, let me think about it for a bit since shit's getting real now.

If you feel confident enough in calling this a 1 to 1 situation then I have absolutely no issue making the argument that he's approaching the same situation differently with the knowledge of the previous game in mind. He got lynched after clamming up, right?

I already addressed this.

How am I not looking deeply enough Tierce? I'm looking at SD's content, or lack thereof. He has Syry as uber town and Thor as a policy lynch. He has no read on Ooba, the other main wagon. He has no read on you or Tammy, the two people who orchestrated the push on him just now. How is any of this coming from the mindset of "I'm town and about to die?"

- Des

I told you guys this is how he plays.

In post 1686, macmollie wrote:hey benny!

you. I like you.

I don't know how many times I have said on this site that the most important town skill a player can have is discerning the difference between town flail and scum flail.

I still think how somehow tammy's meta case based off of 1 game that she didn't even play when he was only the site for 2 months is somehow more valid than mine where I have played with him as scum, against him as scum and both of us town. but hey what the fuck do I know.

In post 1672, Tierce wrote:

In post 1668, Alfred Borden wrote:

Unvote

Oh my god, I want this guy to be scum so so fucking badly but I just can't bring myself to keep my vote on him. Based on what I know of him, I'll be absolutely fucking floored if he's reacting this way as scum.

Thor's probably the least bad of the major wagons right now since my last talk with 'marble had lessened my scumread on ooba considerably.

Vote: Thor

One of 'marble/myself will be around near deadline, I think, if anything happens.

P-edit: Really kanye? In that one scum game I looked at, this dude pretty much awkwardly clammed up under pressure. The reaction here is like night and day.

Same thoughts on the reaction. It's especially the "I told you so" attitude. Why wouldn't he claim a role he thought had a better chance of escaping the lynch? Doesn't make sense, he doesn't seem like the kind of scum player who would do that as an extra layer of WIFOM.

I think Thor is Town--the stuff he's been accused at is the kind of thing he does regardless of alignment. Not voting there unless we need that vote by deadline.

Thoughts on Messiah Complex?

1671 bothers me, he's not looking deeply enough

.

it bothers me too and if desp stopped and thought about it for a minute he would probably know why.

they are off of my like list.

VOTE: thor

I don't like how vague you're being and I don't like the implication that I'm not thinking about what's going on right now.

This shit isn't town flail.

- Des

@Bennage - a question for curiosity, you call out SD and his cheeky indifference as a town tell.
You have as a solid point in your case on me how I cheekily false claimed and was indifferent that you took it serious.
Clarify?

The wagon on me remains incredible bad, unsupported, and is being steeped by people who have no idea why they are even voting me.

Messiah looks painfully obv. Town after the last few pages.



I still do no think he looks like scum, but I know I am not, and the wagon on me is even worse.

In post 1688, Tierce wrote:

In post 1684, Alfred Borden wrote:

In post 1682, Tierce wrote:This is all but impossible to do on a phone. I need a favor: can someone go through Faraday and his hydras' games and see if he has millers? Check the role PMs, he might not call them millers explicitly. I'd like the accounts Faraday, Eddard Stark, The Baltimore Sun, Lost Butterfly and Vu checked for this. I don't think I missed any recent modding accounts, but please remind me if I did.

I just scanned Faraday's wiki and there has been no Town Miller in any of his MS games (and there was definitely no miller in The Wire Season 1, only game modded under The Baltimore Sun account).

Can someone else please check this through the Search function on the forums? His wiki is outdated, IIRC.

Seriously, this doesn't take that long and might be vital information. It'd take me five times that long on my phone. Please, someone do this for me.

It was not based off of one game. And I very clearly stated I played in that game with him and empire and I meta dived for him in that game. Considering that I vigged his slot after he replaced out, I'm pretty sure I played in that damn game. And it wasn't based off one game. It struck me as odd, so I asked about it and presented it AFTER reading through his other games to see if his opinion changed and to geta handle on his alignment. But apparently I'm just not speaking English this game because I think that should be pretty damn clear. Especially since I continued to ask him about it and asked if I was nuts for my being bothered by the change. But apparently people don't know how to have fucking conversations anymore.

Whatever I'm going to bed and will deal with this tomorrow.

UNVOTE: I still think its a good wagon though. If were going to policy lynch someone for a miller claim, I don't know why were all no can't policy kynch someone who's refusing to actually play the game and decides to be cheeky and dodgy when he does show up.

And Ben leave me alone. Stop it with your talking down to me evolution bullshit. It's not even close to the way to get me to join the wagon you want me on. And I was not tunneling on him in the first place, I asked him questions to try to figure out his damn alignment. This isn't even close to what it looks like when I tunnel.

All right my sleeping pill is kicking in, so I don't have time to do much more but tierce, I can't look through faradays games, but in the player upick faraday ran at westeros, my partner was a scum miller. She never claimed and faraday wondered why not because scum millers were funny. Most members of the scum team had low use roles though. But yes, faraday does use millers. Don't have time to see if he used them here though, but I will look until I crash on my iPad.

No miller used in mafiascum upick fantasy camp.

I managed to go through them. Thanks anyway, Tammy.


Yeah, Faraday doesn't use millers in the MS meta. Why? Because normal cops are boring stuff.

VOTE: Thor665

In post 1612, SafetyDance wrote:

In post 1607, quadz08 wrote:T this is obstinate caught scum.

No it's nihilistic town who really couldn't give a fuck up the brow-beating, meta-wank dick-pissing contests that passes as scumhunting in these games. But I assume that must come with being "awesome".

All I know is people in glass houses shouldn't play mafia

In post 1609, Syryana wrote:

SafetyDance wrote:

In post 1593, Syryana wrote:

In post 1582, AGar wrote:If 1591 isn't a scumclaim, I don't know what is. Holy shit WHY ARE WE LETTING HIM LIVE AFTER THIS?

FTFY.

The amusing thing is you're just going to do this again tomorrow.

I don't need to do this again tomorrow, because you're...

I didn't say anything about you doing it towards me tomorrow. But good job admitting that's all you're doing.

Scum.

In post 1613, SafetyDance wrote:

In post 1611, quadz08 wrote:

In post 1608, SafetyDance wrote:So a policy lynch? OK then.

In post 1607, quadz08 wrote:this is obstinate caught scum.

try again plz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_mentality

Scum.

In post 1618, SafetyDance wrote:

In post 1614, Tammy wrote:

In post 1610, SafetyDance wrote:

In post 1605, Tammy wrote:here is how town safety dance feels about reads list In this post, he points out several people who have made some types of reads without reasoning and calls it "Weak as Budwieser reads that do nothing to help with anything. List reads (or whatever you call them) are not proper reads or effective scumhunting. So it's not something you're going to see me throw out there."

So, safetydance. When did you decide that throwing out reads lists wasn't a piece of crap you wouldn't throw out there.

AND and and, when in any game did you think you had to throw out full blown reads on everyone, because I've looked at your games and you don't express that need anywhere.

FYI, 1440 is the poster-child for why meta is completely fucking useless.

I don't understand the logic of applying a standard-defined way of how people will play everything game now matter what, nor how it makes sense that they'll never appear to contradict themselves or play the exact same way, so you'll have to explain that one post-game.

Oh so you were reading along and were just ignoring the game and not playing. Sweet.

And the thing is I asked you a question about it because beliefs held like this tend to be standard. I was trying to understand your mindset and get a handle on your alignment. Instead of answering the question, which you should be able to do but apparently can't, you're acting like a petulant scum child.

So,

H-h-h-h-A-a-a-a-N-n-n-n-G-g-g-g

No. Believe what ever the fuck you want. Santa is your dad though and Christmas is a commercialsed pagan holiday.

Anything I say or do at this stage is just being met with confirmation bias, like I stated. And tomorrow will just be "oh he was playing bad" adbominishment posts so it's not like anyone will change or react differently. So there's no point to me giving reads.

I mean it's people own choice that they choose to focus in on the title of groupings rather than the sentence that prefaces it. People like yourself or Alfred will use meta-reasons to push reasons FOR your case, and just as easily flip-flop based on meta too. Please. All you're doing is setting up Mollie for a big ITYS post.

And fuck off. I don't have to explain activity to anyone in this game bar the mod.

Town.

In post 1629, SafetyDance wrote:

In post 1621, Shadoweh wrote:Look dood, apparently I'm the only person on this page that doesn't hate you, so you should listen to what I'm saying. The part where you're not claiming flavor or what your joat abilities are isn't going to change anyone's minds. Your powers don't get shown when you flip, so even if you're town and you get lynched, we really need to know what you've got. I don't think it looks townie when a person in a no-flips game is trying hard to avoid saying what his role does. :/

I'm dead. Who the fuck else is going to get run up? I'm not self-voting because 1) don't do it and 2) wagon analysis later on is the only positive thing you're going to get out this lynch. I've already explained why my reads are worthless. So flavor, you will get on flip, and abilities don't mean anything once dead. So stop role-fishing.

In post 1622, Tierce wrote:Sooo getting SafetyDance riled up isn't going to fix anything. Stop trying to push him like that.

Let's say I entertain this claim for a moment. Yes, you do need to claim your character name and your abilities. Partial claims are not going to fly under the pretext of "you're not lynching Thor-miller so you're not lynching me because double standards lol". I want a full claim out of you.

My home internet is down, so phone posting, slow, etc.

Let's say you entertain the idea that people believe it and someone else gets run up. Having 1 PR full-claim today, going into night, with scum now knowing extra flavor-info and all the actions that person can do...that is pro-town and helpful? I dun geddit.

Town.

I'm not sure whether or not I still want to lynch this. I think it's mildly better than Thor still? I'm seriously bothered by the fact that we're getting a big blow-up of posts now that he's about to be lynched after we couldn't pay him to post for like a week. But some of these posts do drip town. I hate that it's the eleventh hour and we can't reasonably do anything aside from these three wagons.

Using the Miller claim as a reason to lynch Thor is literally retarded, and you should all feel bad for doing it, mod meta or no mod meta. Some of the points presented against him are reasonable, but that isn't one of them. I'm still willing to compromise on Thor but I plan on examining those of you pushing this as a policy miller lynch. Doing so is almost too scummy to be scum but, seriously guys, roles came before alignments. If he's a miller, he's either a town miller or a scum miller. So he can't be investiagted by one particular type of investigative role... that *barely fucking matters in a large game*.

Ok, so here's about the fullest meta report I can do in the limited time I have left (and considering Safety tends to flake a lot as both alignments):

TOWN: The Wire Season 1, Lord of the Rings Mafia
SCUM: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, Open 502
(You can also add the Hidden Temple game here if you wish, I didn't put it on because mollie's already mentioned the salient points.)

As you can see from combing through the games, Safety does get into self-defense mode a lot (#468 from The Wire -- "I come back and find I have to defend myself against a vote and post I made eight hours into the game. Sorry if I'm a little distracted?" -- I think sums it up pretty well). I do think, though, that there's a huge difference in the way he reacts as town vs. the way he reacts as scum. As town, he tends to get a lot more emotional in his language and I get the sense that he takes consensus suspicion very personally (which I consider a towntell generally, but especially so in his case). There's also way more nuance to his defenses as town, as he's able to break down his actions in massive detail. As scum, I get the impression that he struggles to come up with things to say and he gets very dismissive/handwavy with accusations but there's no actual substance or emotion behind it.

Take a look at what he's doing here: the cynical "go fuck yourselves, I'll be around to say I told you so in the post game" reaction and the emotion behind it fits in strongly with how he reacts as town. There's no awkward filter in place here and it feels like he's just speaking from the heart w.r.t. how he feels about the game. There's a sort of undercurrent beneath all of his posts where you can get the impression that he's taking his wagon and the suspicion against him incredibly personally. Also take a look at #1646 --

So hopefully, you can all see where I'm coming from on this. I'm going to bed now and while I think I'll be around at deadline, I can't guarantee it. So peace and let's hope for a D1 scum lynch here.

P-edit: Ceph, read what I just wrote.

@ Empire: You didn't add anything to your case with that work. He replaced out after 6 posts in HP and was never in danger of being lynched in Open 502. Do you generally put this much stock into single-game meta cases? I don't get you confidence here at all.

Also, @ bolded: fucking seriously? Self-meta is a huge towntell? And your interpretation ignores the context, which was him dodging Tammy's questions about his list-making meta even though he obviously knew about Slimer mafia while he was doing the dodging. He knew Tammy's 1440 existed and he knew he had the answer to her question, but he ignored it and dicked around on a policy lynch instead, and then threw a hissy fit when he got wagoned for it.

- Des

Bumpan vc.