Guns & Roses III [Game over]

[Amrun]

It’s fine to call me and Aaron his primary scumreads, and I agree that Aaron is likely to be town, though I don’t care too much about the factional NK thing.

It’s the reason for sheeping at all that I find scummy. You’re divorcing yourself from the need to be held accountable for your own reads. That’s a problem.

[Amrun]

Amrun do you think I'm mis-reading you or reading you in bad faith

I seem to change my mind about this on a regular basis. I don’t think you would read me in bad faith as town, so if you’re doing that, I think you’re scum. That’s why my read of you waffles.

[Amrun]

S_S: Sheeps are meant to be “well, you convinced me and I also scumread X now!” not “I refuse to even attempt to have my own scumread on this player and am only using Y’s read.” That way when X flips town, you get to say Y was wrong - not you. It’s slimy.

[DrDolittle]

alright I gotta run for now but I have been considering another go at the DDL wagon because I haven't liked his D2 play at all - most recently the way he asked me about my comment on his reads while also claiming to townread me was kinda jank - and I think regardless of your alignment he would make sense as scum, so maybe we can come together on that one, but I'll be out for the rest of today most likely so gonna leave it at that for now, in any case I appreciate you engaging with me more directly as it feels productive

So
I shouldnt call you out for saying I have good reads when they are orthogonal to yours

I am also amazed that you think my day 1 play is stronger when I did nothing.

This whole progression makes 0 sense

[Something_Smart]

Have you met Creature? I know enough to know that post count is meaningless for him.

In my experience he hyperposts when he's engaged and lurks when he isn't. Can you link any specific games where that hasn't been true?

[DrDolittle]

I understand both SS and amruns perspective and they come from so different mindsets that it shouldnt be theatre

[DrDolittle]

I want to do dog watch. I think dog watch is scum if amrun is and is fairly likely scum if amrun is not

[DrDolittle]

Might need to reread. Pop by later

[Something_Smart]

S_S: Sheeps are meant to be “well, you convinced me and I also scumread X now!” not “I refuse to even attempt to have my own scumread on this player and am only using Y’s read.” That way when X flips town, you get to say Y was wrong - not you. It’s slimy.

That's not sheeping, it's agreeing.

Sure if I end up lynching you and you flip town then it's true that Creature's reasoning was wrong, and the only part of my reasoning that was wrong was deciding to trust him.

However having reasoning that led to a wrong conclusion isn't bad in itself; what matters is whether your reasoning made sense. (Similarly having reasoning that leads to the right conclusion but nobody can understand why is still suspect.)

[Something_Smart]

You’re divorcing yourself from the need to be held accountable for your own reads.

How could I possibly prevent myself from being held accountable for my reads? Regardless of who provided the reasoning, I was the one who cast the vote.

Whether I'm going to be held accountable depends on whether other people hold me accountable or not. It doesn't depend on what reasoning I give.

[Amrun]

Have you met Creature? I know enough to know that post count is meaningless for him.

In my experience he hyperposts when he's engaged and lurks when he isn't. Can you link any specific games where that hasn't been true?

I can’t right now. Maybe later in the game if we are alive. Sorry. Take my thoughts in creature with an asterisk for possible inaccuracy, but they’re still my accurate thoughts, if that makes sense.

P-edit: I still don’t think it’s in the spirit of sheeping. And yes, I find your sudden willingness to vote for (imo) bad reasons without any original thought of your own suspect when it’s counter to your previous play IN THIS GAME.

[Amrun]

You’re divorcing yourself from the need to be held accountable for your own reads.

How could I possibly prevent myself from being held accountable for my reads? Regardless of who provided the reasoning, I was the one who cast the vote.

Whether I'm going to be held accountable depends on whether other people hold me accountable or not. It doesn't depend on what reasoning I give.

Refer to your own previous post for that answer.

[Something_Smart]

I see where you're coming from, of course. It does give me an EXCUSE for if you flip town. But then again, (a) that's not an excuse that's likely to really be convincing to anybody, and (b) I could certainly come up with other excuses for my own read was wrong-- a favorite of many people is "it's their own fault they were mislynched, they shouldn't have played so scummy," which I personally hate (it often amounts to victim blaming).

[Amrun]

I see where you're coming from, of course. It does give me an EXCUSE for if you flip town. But then again, (a) that's not an excuse that's likely to really be convincing to anybody, and (b) I could certainly come up with other excuses for my own read was wrong-- a favorite of many people is "it's their own fault they were mislynched, they shouldn't have played so scummy," which I personally hate (it often amounts to victim blaming).

Championing creature wouldn’t bother me nearly as much if you had some type of read of your own. Regardless of if I think that excuse would be effective, when you seem to be willfully not reading me in favor of letting Creature do the work for you, it still implies that reasoning will be used, even if you don’t blatantly say it.

[Something_Smart]

And yes, I find your sudden willingness to vote for (imo) bad reasons without any original thought of your own suspect when it’s counter to your previous play IN THIS GAME.

Here's the thing-- you're correct that I'm an analytic player. And one of the things I consider very seriously when playing is that there is no particularly reason why I should expect my reads to be any better than another random townie's reads.

So, if I have a compelling reason to expect my reads to be WORSE than another townie's reads, then I'll get better results by adopting their reads.

And I do have a compelling reason-- I haven't really found anything worthy of a scumread of any significant level of confidence. If I were to come up with a scumread myself, it would probably not be better than random. And I decided that given how dead the game has been I probably ought to be voting as it would increase the chance that stuff would start happening (and lo and behold, stuff did start happening).

[Amrun]

And yes, I find your sudden willingness to vote for (imo) bad reasons without any original thought of your own suspect when it’s counter to your previous play IN THIS GAME.

Here's the thing-- you're correct that I'm an analytic player. And one of the things I consider very seriously when playing is that there is no particularly reason why I should expect my reads to be any better than another random townie's reads.

So, if I have a compelling reason to expect my reads to be WORSE than another townie's reads, then I'll get better results by adopting their reads.

And I do have a compelling reason-- I haven't really found anything worthy of a scumread of any significant level of confidence. If I were to come up with a scumread myself, it would probably not be better than random. And I decided that given how dead the game has been I probably ought to be voting as it would increase the chance that stuff would start happening (and lo and behold, stuff did start happening).

There were similar gamestates at times yesterday and you still did not vote during them.

[Something_Smart]

I mean I'm pretty sure I voted Creature at what was a similar point to now?

[Amrun]

I don’t agree that the gamestate was the same but at least that was YOUR vote for YOUR reasons.

[Iconeum]

I keep expecting S_S to explain that naked vote on me, but nope. Just hangin out for presumably no reason.


I strongly townread GL now, fwiw. On day 1 I could not follow his train of thought in a genuine way. D2, with the realization that he was comparing it so specifically to high noon, I do.

Menalque, why are you categorizing DogWatch as a lurker? I don’t.

The more this day goes on, the more I'm townreading Amrun. Natural progression in reads, willing to look outside the box, feels like trying to solve the game.

Amrun do you think I'm mis-reading you or reading you in bad faith

Also, I'm not comfortable with Menal pushing DDL. I didn't like the DDL wagon on D1, and I don't like the push on DDL now. This particular post also comes off extremely townie to me.

I've got bad vibes on the Datisi slot, but nothing I can bring to words further then I've already done. Yeah sure this might come off as shading, but it's just what I feel this game.

[Iconeum]

Hmm, I was waiting for you to ask that. Not much.

I don’t love this answer btw datisi

But no further attempts on your part to sort Datisi?

If all 3 scum are on wagon when we know it was being pushed by town (sally) then why was it so hard to get through

This one and the next really give me a feeling that Menal is town trying to sort through the wagons

3 scum on wagon makes no sense from a gamestate pov

Like, not impossible to fake as scum, but still.

VOTE: GL

your reaction was massively over defensive and I don’t really see why town!you would be worried about it

You seem off as well in that you’re choosing to throw quite subtle shade at me instead of trying to work with me

You’re making a really weird semantics point while simultaneously saying that it’s not so much to influence the game as it is for you to look back at later despite that it’s obviously influencing the game by throwing shade at my slot

Your immediate reaction to being voted is also really defensive “how could you possibly be scum reading me” and again trying to throw shade at me which isn’t what I think you do with someone who I’m pretty sure you were townreading before

But mostly you’re trying to direct lynches onto the unproductive slots while trying to keep your distance from it by talking about how “I personally don’t have any good reason not to lynch them” which is super awkward phrasing that I don’t think is likely to come from town who I think would just say “I wanna lynch tex/DW for being lurksacks” rather than feeling such a need to justify it

It would also make sense from a gamestate point of view in that scum have probably been relatively happy with things and letting the game tick over rather than highly contesting it which makes me think the most likely slots that looked like they were lynchable today were all town (DW, tex, maybe ddl)

Realllly dislike the GL case. Dislike to the point where I think this is the game we catch scum!Menal.

Menalque your GL case is primarily projecting what you expect a townie ought to think onto him.

Go on

But your interactions sometimes like this give town viiibes

Ur hard to read this game, dude

VOTE: ddl okay let’s do this then

Can you try and sort Datisi for me? I know you know her pretty damn well in game, and I'd love for you to give a more 'full' opinion on Datisi slot.

[Datisi]

Oh fuck me, a man takes one measely 15 hour nap and all of the sudden there are 5 new pages and one replacement after 2 days of inactivity

Ok first thing I'm not sure what you mean about the PoE, Aaron? Yeah nobody is conftown but those are people that I was to some extent TRing so... ?

[Datisi]

alright I gotta run for now but I have been considering another go at the DDL wagon because I haven't liked his D2 play at all -

most recently the way he asked me about my comment on his reads while also claiming to townread me was kinda jank

GL what is exactly the issue here?

[Datisi]

I want to do dog watch. I think dog watch is scum if amrun is and is fairly likely scum if amrun is not

Why is DW all of a sudden a stronger (?) SR for you rather thsn Amrun?

[Datisi]

Also, I'm not comfortable with Menal pushing DDL. I didn't like the DDL wagon on D1, and I don't like the push on DDL now.

Ok so what happened from you calling Mena one of the Towniest slots in the game?

[Datisi]

I've kinda skimmed both MenavGL and S_SvAmrun will probably reread it more in depth later

Has the day finally come where we will get a DDL case?