In post 1, popsofctown wrote:
3 players spared: The mafia immediately removes two players from the game without flipping them and must choose a mafiosi if no mafia was spared.
@pops Scum can remove people from the Spared list too?
I assumed they could only remove from the unspared ... but it's true that it isn't specified. In other cases, it is specified whether an effect can target unspared only (i.e. S1/F3) or spared and unspared alike (the kill from 2S/2F). Can you clarify?
The quality of being spared only protects someone from something if it is both factional and a nightkill. The remark that the 2 spare shot can target spared players is therefore redundant (but potentially helpful), because even though it's a kill, it's not factional, so being spared wouldn't offer any protection anyway.
Spared players aren't protected from removal-from-the-game because it's not factional, and doubly not protected because it's not even a kill. That was enough to make the reminder seem so redundant that I omitted it, but in hindsight it was worth including.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:44 am
by popsofctown
3>
Farkran saw Asgore rend Psyche's head from its body, and was visibly upset about the loss of his precious buddy. He turned to look at his sibling. "If I didn't have to share Psyche with a new sibling, it would be easier to keep an eye on it. I think you should be made to march all the way to the CORE to get me a new dummy, right now. If you do that, perhaps I could forgive you and you could be a good sibling again. It's a long journey, but we could prepare you rations." Farkran had never felt so much jealousy and anger towards his sibling before this roller coaster day. Chara seemed just as upset about the loss, but did not accept blame. "I - Asgore says Psyche is a bit more like a person than a thing, so, people do wrong things sometimes, Farkran. Where I come from, they do them even more often, and finding others to blame does no good."
It drove Psyche crazy that its audio sensors could detect the conversation at this range. Psyche's training instinct so badly wanted to teach them about defusing tension in diplomatic conversations, but alas, it was immobile.
With seven alive, it takes four to make a decision. (expired on 2020-02-24 20:00:00). Replacement Key
Modnote: Chara PMed an extended V/LA during night phase that is not itself excessive besides how exactly it overlaps this dayphase. The deadline was set to its V/LA + 48 hours.
>Literally everyone else in this game fails to reconsider the most obviously scummy interactions around a general consensus townread slot when the ONLY one pushing hectic is me and you are ALSO townreading me. I'm sure that scum is just afk and throwing, because that's all that any scum that ever existed is capable of doing.
Good luck sparing the slot who is townreaded by everyone
Yes, you are absolutely being stubborn. You're complaining about
everyone else
in the game having a townread
that you don't share and complaining about them not reassessing when everyone else in the game having a single townread and you refusing to listen to the possibility of it being correct. This is the definition of stubbornness and the fact that you are being so angsty to the degree that you are means that you are losing the respect of the playerlist as a whole which means that if you are onto something with your scumreads then no one's going to listen to you. I've said it before, but stop reading to respond. Take a step back and make sure that you're actually listening to people.
This sentence alone is enough to prove you wrong.
The only scenario where one player is townread AND allowed to be spared by everyone -besides me- points to A. me being scum (alone, because literally nobody else was contrasting Hectic spare), or B. the consensus townread player being scum.
Guess what's more likely. Anyways, i'm tired of arguing - you have scum equity, but on the offchance you are town, we'll see postgame. I'm not changing my mind.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:49 am
by Nachomamma8
Or C - scum going along with sparing the consensus townread because it's not worth trying to chip away at the correct read of 6 separate townies.
In post 1, popsofctown wrote:
3 players spared: The mafia immediately removes two players from the game without flipping them and must choose a mafiosi if no mafia was spared.
@pops Scum can remove people from the Spared list too?
I assumed they could only remove from the unspared ... but it's true that it isn't specified. In other cases, it is specified whether an effect can target unspared only (i.e. S1/F3) or spared and unspared alike (the kill from 2S/2F). Can you clarify?
The quality of being spared only protects someone from something if it is both factional and a nightkill. The remark that the 2 spare shot can target spared players is therefore redundant (but potentially helpful), because even though it's a kill, it's not factional, so being spared wouldn't offer any protection anyway.
Spared players aren't protected from removal-from-the-game because it's not factional, and doubly not protected because it's not even a kill. That was enough to make the reminder seem so redundant that I omitted it, but in hindsight it was worth including.
Thanks pops <3
I guess this means they will always remove Suji, + 1 town if scum is spared OR 1 scum if the 3S are all town, so... it's probably a bit better than how i interpreted it originally, but not really much. We still don't know if scum removed scum or town, so we don't know in which group to lynch - again, assuming we don't lynch scum today.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:59 am
by Replica
You've got it reversed, if they couldn't remove from the spare pool it would actually have been insanely overpowered for town, but glad you realized that we actually do get mechanical info.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:01 pm
by Farkran
In post 1678, Nachomamma8 wrote:Or C - scum going along with sparing the consensus townread because it's not worth trying to chip away at the correct read of 6 separate townies.
Meh. 6 separate townies formed a perfect, unanimous townbloc and agreed with each other on sparing one more town. I wish i played with towns this good every time i rolled town.
It's just out of my grasp how *i* am the stubborn one out of the group, when literally no one has been willing to reassess their read of Hectic over two full in-game days, to the point that they don't even take into account the POSSIBILITY that they are being pocketed. This smells of TMI miles and miles afar, but then again Psyche was doing the same and he has just been conftowned by death, so i don't even know what to say.
I really don't want to repeat a Normal 2106 situation so i'll just shut up, we can talk postgame if you are town, otherwise i still think you have a fairly high scum equity.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:02 pm
by Chara
out of the country until the 23rd. going to be doing my best to stick with the game and continue to post regularly.
In post 1678, Nachomamma8 wrote:Or C - scum going along with sparing the consensus townread because it's not worth trying to chip away at the correct read of 6 separate townies.
Meh. 6 separate townies formed a perfect, unanimous townbloc and agreed with each other on sparing one more town. I wish i played with towns this good every time i rolled town.
It's just out of my grasp how *i* am the stubborn one out of the group, when literally no one has been willing to reassess their read of Hectic over two full in-game days, to the point that they don't even take into account the POSSIBILITY that they are being pocketed. This smells of TMI miles and miles afar, but then again Psyche was doing the same and he has just been conftowned by death, so i don't even know what to say.
I really don't want to repeat a Normal 2106 situation so i'll just shut up, we can talk postgame if you are town, otherwise i still think you have a fairly high scum equity.
I didn't say anything about a perfect townbloc, just that 6 separate townies came to a townread. Some people had stronger townreads than others, some people were just sheeping - doesn't mean that they all were right, doesn't mean that they all were wrong.
I understand the position you're in currently - last Undertale they spared Rakan Day 1 and everyone in the game was townreading Rakan except for me (he was town) - I'm willing to talk and reassess that read today (am currently going through your big case now), but, again, I think that it's important for you to take a step back because a number of townies ARE townreading Hectic and I don't think you've really considered their reasons for doing so. Thinking that you know better than basically everyone else is being stubborn.
I guess i should just have stopped there for my own good. There is scum on the overlapping wagons.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:15 pm
by Replica
I literally do not understand why, out of all the things to do right now, Nacho is focusing on reading Farkran's case on an already-spared player.
It's on my list for checking Farkran, but like, there are so many more avenues for him to take right now (See: Actually trying to read or engage with Amrun)
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:16 pm
by Replica
I guess he asked Amrun a single question. That was something.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:19 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 1685, Replica wrote:I literally do not understand why, out of all the things to do right now, Nacho is focusing on reading Farkran's case on an already-spared player.
It's on my list for checking Farkran, but like, there are so many more avenues for him to take right now (See: Actually trying to read or engage with Amrun)
We have a full day to play. Why does it matter where I start?
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:26 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 937, Farkran wrote:Here Replica introduces himself with a slight scumlean of Chara, on the account of "ingratiating with Sujimichi" - as if Replica knew beforehand suji was town, but wanted to distance from Chara. He also points out how Chara and Hectic are interacting weirdly in the second part of this post.
Replica didn't point out that Hectic and Chara were interacting weirdly, he said that it was weird that they had been interacting all game and Chara hadn't noticed that Hectic was providing content before #193. Your first point seems to be fitting the reasons to the read - why does it look like Replica knew that Suji was town? Why is it more likely than town!Replica thinking that Chara was sucking up in a weird way?
In post 937, Farkran wrote:Furthering the scumlean on Chara, while at the same time hard townreading Hectic. Look at the bolded part and tell me if a soft chainsaw defense of Hectic makes sense at this point in time, when Replica had just argued with Chara for their interactions, and that gimmicking is not a good reason to townread Hectic slot. Then Replica outright HEALS Hectic, with reservations because of the amount of votes, and NEVER removes that votes for the entire game until Sujimichi happened. KEEP THIS IN MIND¹.
Replica never expressed reservation on the # of votes, he expressed reservation because of the people who were voting (Chara and I). I don't know that I see Replica saying that Chemist moving his heal vote from Hectic to Asriel as a chainsaw defense and don't really understand your perspective here - Hectic had posted a bunch and was an active contributor and Asriel hadn't done anything worth being spared (as you noted early after you replaced in), so moving one's vote from someone who had posted and contributed to someone who hadn't done jack shit IS wack.
In post 937, Farkran wrote:Hectic willing to spare Replica. Why? Never voted for him though.
I agree that Hectic being OK with sparing Replica here was strange.
In post 937, Farkran wrote:Replica trying again to pocket Suji - note this was before Sherlock pointed out the townslip, and therefore before Suji's FN claim as well. Look at the bolded: first reason to townread suji is sparing Hectic. Also Replica was nullreading me at the time.
And I definitely agree that Replica's reasons for townreading Suji here were poor. I don't think that necessarily translates to
In post 937, Farkran wrote:Chara HEALS Replica here, switching its 77 vote on Hectic, in a gamestate where Hectic was L-1 from a spare hammer and had intent from Suji. Look at the bolded though: Chara is not strong on townreading Hectic at this point, whereas Replica is its highest townread.
Why do you think that Chara does this if it is partners with Hectic? Chara's posting implies that it is still strong on townreading Hectic, just getting cold feet on actually pulling the trigger on Hectic being spared, which I think is pretty understandable.
In post 937, Farkran wrote:Replica trying again to pocket Suji - note this was before Sherlock pointed out the townslip, and therefore before Suji's FN claim as well. Look at the bolded: first reason to townread suji is sparing Hectic. Also Replica was nullreading me at the time.
I agree that Replica's reasons for townreading Suji here sucked. I don't why having bad reasoning for townreading means that he's buddying up with Suji, and I don't necessarily understand why Suji is a buddy target for Replica as scum here.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:40 pm
by Farkran
I guess Replica is my menalque, and Nacho is my Rabid. Sorry for the analogies, this game is just so very similar to that one.
@Replica, can we compromise on a Nacho lynch today, and agree that we lynch either me or Chara if he flips town, otherwise we spare either you or your highest townread (i guess bingle) on a red flip? I honestly think there's pretty much no world in which you are scum by now.
pedit: we can talk about it, nacho. As you said, the day is long. Read my posts with the premise that i thought Hectic would be scum with one of those on the overlapping wagons. I started looking at Replica, Chemist, Bingle only when i re-read the game with the assumption that Hectic and the full wagon on me was town, after the sujimichi slip event. The large majority of the weird interactions come from Hectic, not from his partners - still, the way they responded was not natural. Check my case against Chara around d2 start to see what i mean, but once again, all of this is based on the -imo- even more accurate premise that people should hear a bell ringing when Hectic behaves awkwardly and yet he's still so widely townread as to be spared by 90% of the playerlist. Also, i think your meta case of Hectic is poor and superficial - again giving you very little reason to townread the slot so much as to spare him when you entered the game with a leaning on a lynch resolution.
Right now i'll go to sleep though, almost 1 AM here.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:44 pm
by Chara
alright.
i see the arguments for lynching today. i'm assuming they're sound, mechanics Chara is taking a nap at the moment.
pedit: why do we lynch me on a Nacho townflip?
i'd be happy to spare Replica if that's on the table.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:55 pm
by Replica
Worth noting I didn't townread Sujimichi early, if you read the post again I was justifying why I didn't want to lynch him that day which is very different. That reason was "I think he'll become very readable with time and I don't trust reading him on tone". I started townreading him when I went and looked at his scumgame, first pointed out by Hectic. #688 went over my conclusions for that.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:58 pm
by Replica
In post 1689, Farkran wrote:@Replica, can we compromise on a Nacho lynch today, and agree that we lynch either me or Chara if he flips town, otherwise we spare either you or your highest townread (i guess bingle) on a red flip? I honestly think there's pretty much no world in which you are scum by now.
He's in my lynch pool, depends on what I come away from reviewing you/Chara/Amrun. Chara I tried earlier to no real avail, Amrun is my project for tomorrow.
In post 1687, Nachomamma8 wrote:We have a full day to play. Why does it matter where I start?
It matters because I'm actually trying to put myself in your shoes and figure out what town Nacho is thinking, what he considers a priority and why. Yesterday the town Nacho priority seemed to be to not get forcereplaced. Today so far I really have no clue.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:03 pm
by Replica
I know I've been a bit of a dick to you between today and the end of day yesterday and should probably tone it down a bit, but telling me "We have a full day to play" as though it is obvious that you will utilize it to the fullest doesn't exactly have a lot of credibility.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:17 pm
by Amrun
I don’t get how you don’t have a read of me, Replica.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:17 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 937, Farkran wrote:Chara still strongly townread hectic, providing reasons - except, look at my reply to its post 380, several lines above this. All the reasons stated by Chara in 561 were already present at the point in time of 380. Still, Chara is healing Replica now.
This makes sense - disagree with the Replica spare at that stage, but stewing on the reasons for sparing someone and then coming to a stronger conclusion is reasonable enough. I understand why you had this interpretation if you thought that Chara experienced a significant drop on the Hectic townread, but I don't think that was the case.
In post 607, Replica wrote:
HEAL: popsofctown this one's not just an unvote, it's really for you, the MVP for all the work you put into running this and for letting me replace in. HEAL: Hectic but ONLY FOR A SECOND WE STILL ON THE SPARE TRAIN CHOO CHOO
Remember my keep in mind note ¹? The train of votes on Hectic suddenly turned from a reservation to a bonus reason to heal there.
Roughly at this point, Sujimichi townslip was pointed out, and shortly later the long and passionate exchange between me and Replica happened.
.
Hmmm. You're misinterpreting Replica's uncomfortableness with the wagon - 301 implies that he doesn't like Chara and I being on the wagon but I don't see him saying that he was uncomfortable with the number of votes on it. I don't understand the keep in mind note - there was only one that you left and it clearly wasn't connected to this.
In post 937, Farkran wrote:Chara starts scumreading me for my push on Replica and nothing else.
...yeah, I don't actually understand that attack at all? Awkward that at the end of the "it is dangerous to cast a fight vote" exchange Chara starts to scumread you based on how you worded a defense as opposed to addressing any of the content itself.
In post 337, Chara wrote:
and besides that, even if i don't know if i agree with what they think is best, because we aren't playing math here but mafia (as they said themself)
Here Chara pretty much agrees with
literally the same thing
i will say later in my argument against Replica. KEEP THIS IN MIND².
In post 848, Chara wrote:i think Farkran is scum for reasons besides disagreeing about optimal strategy.
I would be very curious to hear these now, since you are already fighting me in d2 when i argued against Replica
for the exact same reasons you pointed out in my note ²
.
Chara is still agreeing with you here - just also stating that it is scumreading you for reasons OTHER than disagreeing about optimal strategy, which I understand.
In post 937, Farkran wrote:At the end of day 1, both Chara and Replica are scumreading me, whereas they are townreading themselves and Hectic. This is pretty much a very convoluted omgus/chainsaw defense,
there are no other reasons to scumread me at this point
- none of Asriel ISO has been used for a scumcase, which would have been something i would agree with - but i specifically asked if they scumread Farkran because of Farkran, and they said they do.
The bolded is wrong; that isn't how mafia works. The thrust of your point here is "they're scumreading me and there's no reason to scumread me", which is problematic - yes, you are town, and yes, people are scumreading you incorrectly and their reasons are wrong. Doesn't mean they can't be coming from a genuine place.
I don't think that the progressions on either of those two reads is problematic - Hectic went from scum on Chara to lean on Chara to town on Chara. It makes sense that he's willing to spare the person he's had the most interactions with hands down - that's the person he's put the most effort into reading. Hectic had a lean town on Replica simply grew stronger with time, which makes sense.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:26 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 1692, Replica wrote:It matters because I'm actually trying to put myself in your shoes and figure out what town Nacho is thinking, what he considers a priority and why. Yesterday the town Nacho priority seemed to be to not get forcereplaced. Today so far I really have no clue.
You'd be better off interacting with my posts as opposed to just sitting back and taking potshots - the potshots themselves do nothing but annoy me and make me dread the fact that we likely have to have in depth interactions today for town to have a decent chance of winning a game where it shouldn't be that hard to win. I know that it's been a while since we've played together, but if you're trying to get me engaged with the game, it's actually quite simple - don't be a dick, read my posts. You know that. You've seen it before. Why are you taking this route instead?
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:50 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 944, Farkran wrote:when then it explicity says you are back at the top of its townreads in 570 - HOWEVER still refuses to vote for your spare? Note that this is well before the sujimichi townslip (and therefore the claim). I can only think of two reasons for this if i assume scum!chara: distancing from scum!hectic, or not wanting to spare town!hectic. Then, however, Hectic starts scumreading Chara because of that move, only to reconsider it later when Chara comes back to townreading Hectic.
Chara had two top townreads at that point in time - Replica and Hectic. Why does it matter that Chara was voting one over the other?
In post 944, Farkran wrote:Today, Hectic is townreading Chara enough to place it in his spare pool, and is scumreading me because i am scumreading him. This is not progression, it's literally a very convoluted omgus/chainsaw defense. The only reasons both of you have to townread each other -and scumread me- are because we changed our opinion on you. There is absolutely no other reasons to change your reads other than WE changed our reads. Unfortunately this also applies to Replica, who was scumreading Chara and then reconsiders it exactly when Chara starts scumreading me because i was scumreading Replica, but technically Replica is the most consistent here, so if i had to choose 2 scum and 1 town out of the trio, the town would be Replica. Though, Replica is still a scumread of mine and i could be wrong on either Hectic or Chara - however, it's a given that your interactions do not make sense as a genuine townbloc.
And again you're falling into a bit of a trap here with the black and white - it's not true that the only reasons that exist to townread either Hectic or Chara or Replica is the fact that they're scumreading you and it's untrue that the only reason that exists to scumread you is that you are scumreading Replica or Chara or Hectic.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:01 pm
by Nachomamma8
weirdly enough starting to bounce to the "chemist might be town" side again - i liked his decision to read the farkran wallpost and his extremely firm townread on farkran out of nowhere, felt genuine.
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:06 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 1117, Farkran wrote:To provide a concrete example, i had to reread Hectic's ISO a couple times before realizing that his progression on Chara was scum indicative. Why did i re-read Hectic specifically and not another player? Because i was skeptical about Hectic behavior during the end of d1, specifically starting from his interactions towards Chara. Then, the d2 post where he promotes a spare on its slot rang another bell to me, that resonated with his previous d1 post where he voted Chara. I went back and checked, and found out that the first fight vote wasn't particularly off tonewise or contentwise - but when Hectic enters d2 promoting a spare on Chara, i asked myself what was the purpose of that. How could it be a genuine scumread? Why would hectic place a pretty much vanity FIGHT vote on Chara for so little reason, when he was strong on his own spare (and ultimately on sparing suji too)? Why does Hectic enter d2 with a preference for the 4-spared route and includes Chara in it, after what happend there? I thought of one possible reason: distancing. And that's the second bell that alarmed me: why isn't Chara AT LEAST a bit paranoid of this, instead introducing itself by healing hectic? Why didn't it ask Hectic for an explanation? That is, because Chara accepted the distance put between them as a good thing. That's what led me to think they are the most plausible scumteam right now. Everything that i can think of right now would match this theory. This does not mean it's 100% correct, but i do want to pursue it, engage more with the people involved (nothing from Chara made me change my mind, though), and possibly get a flip to learn more.
This hits me as remarkably genuine, as does the frustration of being accused of being surface level in this post.