California Trilogy: City of Angels - On Camera (Game Over)

[Talitha]

I think ortolan and by extension myself got a bad rap in this game.

ortolan is absolutely able to not be suspicious of someone who suspects him (see end game Hewitt for one example). He was also teetering on changing his mind about Gaspar (because of Elvis's sincerity) but it was Gaspar's AP stuff that clinched that lynch.

Zachrulz could possibly improve at mafia by learning to distinguish "acting" from real feelings.

Some of you didnt do town any favours by by not attempting to put yourselves into our shoes after we were whisked from our blind cluelessness onstage straight into being the centre of controversy (Scene 1). We were attacked from before we could catch up and then we were on the defensive almost constantly from that point onwards. A modicum of understanding about what that was like from our perspective and considering our explanations might have gone quite a long way to calming OUR suspicions of certain people down.

Not saying we played particularly well, but it took more than us alone to create the 'talilan-distraction'.

[Zachrulez]

Zachrulz could possibly improve at mafia by learning to distinguish "acting" from real feelings.

Elaborate? I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

[Papa Zito]

Not saying we played particularly well, but it took more than us alone to create the 'talilan-distraction'.

Yes, it took an enormous amount of energy to turn you guys into a distraction and keep people's focus there.

[Talitha]

Zach: It was just my petty way of taking offense at this comment of yours:

Talilan = honorary scum. They pushed so hard for your lynch and then acted all shocked and depressed like they couldn't go on playing because they were so wrong. It was one of the suspicions I never got around to sharing before we were nked.

PZ: Was that a sarcastic comment or is that true? I havent read much of the scum QT

[Zachrulez]

Zach: It was just my petty way of taking offense at this comment of yours:

Talilan = honorary scum. They pushed so hard for your lynch and then acted all shocked and depressed like they couldn't go on playing because they were so wrong. It was one of the suspicions I never got around to sharing before we were nked.

I'm sorry if I offended you, wasn't my intention. I'm sure you could find a game of mine where I've played worse and hit me pretty hard with it.

As far as mislynches go, I think the slot the got hosed the worst was Elmosaurian. It must have been frustrating as hell for them to try to talk sense into the town only for it to make the town want to lynch them even more... lol

[Talitha]

Oh no apology necessary. You were calling it as you saw it. That was just one particular sore point because we actually put quite a bit of feeling and effort into the game, ya know?

I felt bad for ElmYos too but I was recently discussing the game with PJ and we both still can't figure out how ElmYos genuinely didn't think KY Krew was obv-scum!

[Yosarian2]

Some of you didnt do town any favours by by not attempting to put yourselves into our shoes after we were whisked from our blind cluelessness onstage straight into being the centre of controversy (Scene 1). We were attacked from before we could catch up and then we were on the defensive almost constantly from that point onwards. A modicum of understanding about what that was like from our perspective and considering our explanations might have gone quite a long way to calming OUR suspicions of certain people down.

Not saying we played particularly well, but it took more than us alone to create the 'talilan-distraction'.

Meh. I suspected you guys for a logical and rational reason related to your on-stage play. His reaction was to declare me scum because I suspected him, to twist every single thing I said for the entire rest of the game to make it sound scummy, to attack me for saying things that were simply obviously true and logically correct, and completely refuse to listen to what I was actually saying or ever consider the possibility that I might be town. I got rolebased information that let me know what the right choice was, and rather then see if I was telling the truth or not, Ort managed to get me lynched and at the same get the town to pick the worst possible option, all because he had become convinced I was scum since day 1 for no good reason.

[Yosarian2]

Oh no apology necessary. You were calling it as you saw it. That was just one particular sore point because we actually put quite a bit of feeling and effort into the game, ya know?

I felt bad for ElmYos too but I was recently discussing the game with PJ and we both still can't figure out how ElmYos genuinely didn't think KY Krew was obv-scum!

I did think he was scum, and I nailed him KY as scum in the first place. Despite that, until we actually knew his alignment, you always have to consider the possibility you might be wrong, because as any mafia player knows, sometimes you lynch the obv-scum and he flips town.

I never would have argued against lynching him, of course, and I didn't.

[Zachrulez]

Oh no apology necessary. You were calling it as you saw it. That was just one particular sore point because we actually put quite a bit of feeling and effort into the game, ya know?

I can understand how you feel... looking at the game more in hindsight with the way the scumteam capitalized on your mistakes though, my comments were probably at least a little bit unfair.

I felt bad for ElmYos too but I was recently discussing the game with PJ and we both still can't figure out how ElmYos genuinely didn't think KY Krew was obv-scum!

Hah... that should have been the first sign to us that he was town actually. Any scum with a lick of sense were going to push that bus off the damn cliff!

[Zachrulez]

Oh no apology necessary. You were calling it as you saw it. That was just one particular sore point because we actually put quite a bit of feeling and effort into the game, ya know?

I felt bad for ElmYos too but I was recently discussing the game with PJ and we both still can't figure out how ElmYos genuinely didn't think KY Krew was obv-scum!

I did think he was scum, and I nailed him KY as scum in the first place. Despite that, until we actually knew his alignment, you always have to consider the possibility you might be wrong, because as any mafia player knows, sometimes you lynch the obv-scum and he flips town.

I never would have argued against lynching him, of course, and I didn't.

I never really seriously consider the possibility in a situation like that until the guy actually flips town. Doubt is something I feel that scum can play with, and I feel like there's less of a chance for them to control the game if they're stuck in the moment.

[Talitha]

(To Yos) Well I don't want to get back into the arguments that we already failed miserably at thrashing out, but you can't blame one person for your lynch. We only had one vote, same as you and everyone else.

[Thok]

Zachrulz could possibly improve at mafia by learning to distinguish "acting" from real feelings.

There's a matter of knowing your audience; I'm not sure that ortolan has the reputation (and possibly the skill, but that's a separate argument) to justify letting him get away with something that looked counterproductive to town. (Says a person who has only played one game with ortolan and who was part of the informed minority, so take my words with a grain of salt.)

Both the day 1 attacks on Talilan and the Elmosaurian lynch came from the same line of thought; that somebody did something onstage that was obviously not helpful to town, and thus was scum. Nobody put in the effort to observe that scum would be afraid to take that position for similar reasons.

[Talitha]

Both the day 1 attacks on Talilan and the Elmosaurian lynch came from the same line of thought; that somebody did something onstage that was obviously not helpful to town, and thus was scum. Nobody put in the effort to observe that scum would be afraid to take that position for similar reasons.

That's a great observation.

I certainly learnt a lot in this game and hope to put the learning to use next time I play.

[Papa Zito]

PZ: Was that a sarcastic comment or is that true? I havent read much of the scum QT

No, it's true. Talilan and elmosaurian were the two playerslots that I felt I was forced to attack head-on. Both were far too dangerous to be left alive, but there were only so many NKs. I would much rather have worked around the more powerful hydras than attack them.

[ortolan]

whatever Glork and Yos feel about me, I feel the same way about them

read the game, it's not like I/we were the only people suspicious of Glork and Yos throughout the game- I would always lynch someone for the comment you made about KY Crew just prior to lynch- that was just bizarre. Glork looked like he was just throwing mud (see how many people he was right about actually being scum, if I recall correctly it was horribly low).

I would also remind you that we were pretty much the only people who consistently attacked Thok throughout the game, we didn't get any support though. I don't feel bad about my reads- apart from Glork and Yos I was right about both MafiaJin and ckd being town, was right about Thok being scum, was perhaps wrong on DGB although at the last minute did an odd manoeuvre of kind of attacking her and neglecting Thok, when I should have been attacking Thok. I don't think any of the town players who survived for the length of the game had objectively *better* reads than us, certainly.

I'm not sure that ortolan has the reputation (and possibly the skill, but that's a separate argument) to justify letting him get away with something that looked counterproductive to town. (Says a person who has only played one game with ortolan and who was part of the informed minority, so take my words with a grain of salt.)

I don't think I have a reputation for being skilled, but if anything I would hope that would make people more liable to give you leeway rather than less. I also don't think mafia skill is actually objectively quantifiable beyond the psychological aspect. Sure you can have a good game, but there's too many variables (see I think Glork is just abusing his reputation to have a go at me here when in reality he played horribly. he fails to appreciate that while he might think he had valid reasons for attacking me...guess what? I thought I had valid reasons for attacking him too. I probably would have had some better reads had we not been arbitrarily placed on the back foot for much of the game. I do also think the verbosity of the game (me partly at fault) was a problem, but I tend to react with verbosity when someone is being completely obnoxious, like Glork was.

[Yosarian2]

I never really seriously consider the possibility in a situation like that until the guy actually flips town. Doubt is something I feel that scum can play with, and I feel like there's less of a chance for them to control the game if they're stuck in the moment.

You always have to doubt, have to entertain the possibility that you might be wrong. You don't always have to mention it, of course, and in a normal game I wouldn't, but here it was necessary to do so.

If town had been willing to do that the day I was lynched, for example, they would never have picked the choice I specifically told them not to pick.

[Yosarian2]

I would always lynch someone for the comment you made about KY Crew just prior to lynch- that was just bizarre.

Then you clearly were not reading what I actually said.

(To Yos) Well I don't want to get back into the arguments that we already failed miserably at thrashing out, but you can't blame one person for your lynch. We only had one vote, same as you and everyone else.

Actually, it was mostly you and the scum pushing for my lynch.

[Talitha]

And while pushing for your lynch we were somehow also wholly responsible for the onstage choice too (according to you). Come on now, that is ridiculous, and you're just sore.

[ortolan]

whatever, I can't be bothered arguing about this. I should have become apathetic about the game far earlier probably, rather than soldiering on when I wasn't enjoying it.

[ortolan]

Yos: I am sorry if you feel I tunneled on you after that comment, I did find you very scummy for it at the time though. I am wondering if the avatars had an effect in this game- now that Thesp has changed his avatar back he looks 100 times more pro-town than that evil looking dude in his avatar. Your actor looked a bit too knowing too, Yos.

[Zachrulez]

I can't speak for my wife in this case, but after reading Zorblag's explanation, I can kinda see things a little better from his perspective.

I have my own feelings on the matter, but the whole hydra thing is a lot of uncharted ground for me, so I can probably chalk a lot of the experience up to not quite knowing what to expect from hydras, or the kind of things that could happen with them.

[ortolan]

by the way I really liked the MrJellyLee hydra, they were really horribly obv-town

pity they got killed so early

[Thok]

by the way I really liked the MrJellyLee hydra, they were really horribly obv-town

pity they got killed so early

You act like there wasn't a correlation between those statements.

[ortolan]

a lot of the time obv-town to me isn't the same as obv-town to the scum. that hydra was obv-town to me and practically everyone else in the game, which is a rarity.

[Papa Zito]

I can't speak for my wife in this case, but after reading Zorblag's explanation, I can kinda see things a little better from his perspective.

I have my own feelings on the matter, but the whole hydra thing is a lot of uncharted ground for me, so I can probably chalk a lot of the experience up to not quite knowing what to expect from hydras, or the kind of things that could happen with them.

It was a scum lie, just like any other scum lie. I couldn't very well explain Zorblag's absence any other way, could I?

And it wasn't completely untrue anyway... we are very, very different players who had a hard time meshing styles. Things may have been different if we'd been a townie slot, who knows. (Maybe we should try again as town at some point, Troll?)