Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)

[Mutleyddmc]

tip: have fun! <3

Is TIP in this game?

[Faster Than Light]

tip: have fun! <3

Is TIP in this game?

Nope.


-V

[Desperado]

DESPERADO: 46 POSTS : NULL-LEANING-SCUM
WHY: This is actually one of the reads that I’m deferring to Metal Sonic. I see his posts as pretty null and tunnel-oriented while still sort-of engaging with what other players have to say, but Metal feels like the case made against us is a strong push for a mislynch without information and that the small number of posts/content ratio is what’s making him harder to read outright. As a note, he has 46 posts here, but most are double-posts and sometimes triple-posts. Get that fixed, Desperado.

I don't have a case against you. And I can't fix my laptop so, get over it?

Spoiler:
701 : Late entry to the game, but only does ISO work on a handful of people. The vote on Rach isn't very articulated, and previous anti-Rach people have already made these points in much more detail, I feel.

I thought my vote was articulated just fine under "Rach is scum." What did you disagree with?

1004 : Here's where I have a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. Desperado's been pushing this Rach wagon like no one's business with very little substantive work done other than saying she's Rach and she's scum. The thing that busts my balls, though, is when he says Rach's flip will confirm me as scum. What? How? It seems like too large a jump, especially given that Desperado hasn't mentioned me at all so far in his posts outside of a single instance of talking about waffles. (For the record, I prefer pancakes, but waffles can be pretty dope from time to time) This gets echoed in his 1011, too.

I bolded a sentence that Rach said about you that clearly implicated you as a partner imo. Something along the lines of "I can't get a good read on the Vars/MS hydra and they need to get their shit together" when your wagon was picking up steam. Read like scum coaching their partner, especially without a vote attached.

1038 : There's been objections to the Rach wagon so far, so it's interesting to point out that here is where he defers to Nacho. I think that Desperado is town-reading Nacho and either wants an out for his Rach case so that he can push someone else, or, if Nacho's logic isn't sound, he'll continue to push now that he's certain there won't be outspoken Nacho opposition--which, for the record, is some powerful shit.

I'm not deferring to anyone. I was asking Nacho to walk me through his townread on Rach so I could explain why he was wrong. How did you perceive deference in that post?

1335 : The talk of my Calvin/Hobbes AtE here is actually pretty damning evidence. First of all, it allows him to retrospectively and subtly push on me without making an actual case (see: Desperado's play against me this whole game) while appealing to the real meta-heads who are on the fence about me (See: BROseidon, especially). What splits this from the way BRO goes about Meta is that Desperado is using it to call suspicion onto my slot. It's an inaccurate portrayal, because I've made use of the same appeals and rhetoric as both scum and town (See: Open 489 "You Are Not Cats" as well as "Calvin and Hobbes Mafia"). Of course, on a personal level, I feel like using Meta to make these sorts of arguments against players is useless and far-and-away exploitable by scum, so I'm a bit biased on this front. Still, my meta spits in the face of the accusation, and it really feels like Desperado is testing the waters with pushing a mislynch on me. He later cites ‘commitment to the role’ as reason why he’s paranoid, pulling back a bit on the insane anti-FTL claims he’d put forth earlier. I think Desperado doesn’t realize I commit pretty damn hard in most of my games, regardless of alignment. I replace out when I can’t commit.
MS edit: Desperado’s push on us because of “paranoia” sounds like an excuse to push us without having any real reason. I was in that Calvin&Hobbes game too along with Vars and Desp so I see where he’s coming from but the fact that he only read the Varsoon head and provided no comments about me makes his push scummy imo

I don't care about your other games because I've only played with you once, and your insane AtE in the middle of this game was reminiscent of your scum game in Calvin and Hobbes. I said it was making me paranoid.

Why are you two both so sensitive? I'm not even close to pushing your slot for a lynch so all of this just reads like over-defensive BS. And I'm not making any comments on you, MS, because you're completely unreadable for me. RW and C&H made that pretty clear.

And your Rach-town argument is so weak, jesus. "I've never seen rach post a reads list so she must be town!" are you kidding me? Appeasement = town? How long did it take to get those reads out of her?

You didn't even PBPA her because you couldn't possibly find town motivation in her posts--you literally said you are townreading her because "of the way other people interacted with her wagon." That's nonsensical.

[Faster Than Light]

@Desperado: Please don't misrepresent my Rach case. My justifications for her being town are largely based on wagon/FoS analysis. It makes plenty of sense. Also, I'm pretty sure that Rach is a Null read from our hydra.

I see 1038 as you seeing that Nacho is a strong town voice recognized across town. Letting Nacho make a Rach case for you is suspect to me.

-V

[Desperado]

@Desperado: Please don't misrepresent my Rach case. My justifications for her being town are largely based on wagon/FoS analysis. It makes plenty of sense. Also, I'm pretty sure that Rach is a Null read from our hydra.

I see 1038 as you seeing that Nacho is a strong town voice recognized across town. Letting Nacho make a Rach case for you is suspect to me.

-V

You don't have a case to misrep, Varsoon. You said "i tried to do this but it's all meta so I stopped" and then left it at "I don't like the way people interacted with her wagon" and "Rach gave reads lists and she NEVER does that" as to why she's town.

Why would I ask Nacho to make a Rach-town case when I don't believe that?!? Your point is nonsensical and not reflective of reality.

[Faster Than Light]

@Desperado: On the point of me not having a case, that's fair. I don't have a substantial case. It's a case, though, so don't undermine it.

On your Nacho point, I read it like asking the opposing army what weapons and troops they have. If Nacho didn't have a strong town case on Rach, you could push the lynch hard. If Nacho did, you had an 'out' to swap to town-reading her.

[notscience]

HI MUTT

@FTL I disagree about Syry/Cabd

[Desperado]

@Desperado: On the point of me not having a case, that's fair. I don't have a substantial case. It's a case, though, so don't undermine it.

On your Nacho point, I read it like asking the opposing army what weapons and troops they have. If Nacho didn't have a strong town case on Rach, you could push the lynch hard. If Nacho did, you had an 'out' to swap to town-reading her.

Or:

If Nacho didn't have a strong town case on Rach, I could push the lynch harder with his support. If Nacho did, I could explain why he was wrong, and then push the lynch harder with his support.

[TiphaineDeath]

Yeah ok, FTL can be town.

[Sound of Silence]

Syr's being all town and stuff. Cabd gets a free ride unless my town read on Syr goes sour. Until day 3, anyway.

[Faster Than Light]

@Desperado: I think it's a bit difficult to explain why Nacho is wrong, no offense.

@NS: What are your thoughts on the TrustFund hydra? Also, do you support our vote on Nick?

@SoS: I think most of what bugs me about TrustFund is in game approach and representation/engagement.

-V

[nickthename]

NICK THE NAME : 50 POSTS : SCUM
WHY:

I have Nick as null-leaning-scum (more of a benefit of the doubt affordance), but MS is convinced he’s dyed-in-the-wool scum. He’s been really inconsistent in his play across the board, and his reads-list has been pretty betrayed by his own play later. He seems very intent on getting hydras all mislynched, and this is what really rubs MS the wrong way, who cited posts like 441 and 538 against us as evidence for this. I feel like the disparity in his play, the lack of being able to cognitively map him, and his swapping between early votes on just-born wagons to testing the waters with Rach is troubling, especially in light of how defensively he’s been playing this game.

I'll get to this more later on, but this thing about me wanting to get hydras mislynched is crap. In 441 i'm saying I hate hydras because of all this dissonance happening this game, and because I can't figure out what B&B's actual opinions are. I then try and clarify mollie's stance. This is not me trying to get any hydras lynched.

538: This thing where you guys don't seem to care that you don't agree, and don't seem to value your vote at all doesn't seem town motivated at all to me. Once again, this has nothing to do with the fact that you are a hydra, rather that here you are playing as a hydra in a way that doesn't seem town.

As for this thing about my playstyle changing as the game goes on, it makes perfect sense for my playstyle to change as the game goes on, since more information appears and wagons become more serious. Shouldn't playstyle change as game situations change? I fail to see how this is scummy.

More in-depth refutations
\/

Spoiler:

61 : Explains a terrible, reactionary vote here. Even concedes that it might just be a different approach in playstyle, but never makes clear -that's what he is pressuring-. His vote feels like a genuine get-lynched kinda vote here.

A genuine "get-lynched" vote on page 3? Are your serious? Haven't we played games together before? My threshold for a vote early on is very low.

102 : Another vote of reaction-levels, and here with frustration as the only discernible reason why. It's not a very town transition in votes or rationale for either.

This guy came along and was scummier than the previous guy, so I voted him. As I said, not a high threshold this early on, especially with this many players.

201 : you know what this game needs? More IC bashing. Don't encourage or challenge the slot to create content, noooo, that's bad town. Just tell NS that his play was shitty or bad or dumb and suffocate his voice.

I don't see how this is suffocating his voice, but whatever.

218 : Another jarring leap in vote. Nick seems to play a very reactionary game, and since he's given no real reads so far, it's not like I can call him scum for it. His 533 addresses this concern, so, eh?

I almost seems like you ARE calling me scum for it. I might as well c&p my last reason. This guy came along and was scummier than the previous guy, so I voted him.

232 : The logic presented here rings true for Nick, which makes his push make a bit more sense, but I wish it didn't have to get questioned out of him.

So have you read 533 or not? It didn't take me getting questioned to say it, it took me some time to double-check my suspicions were correct, and to write up my reasoning. As I've
said several times before, I voted first, thinking that was scummy, then double checked and wrote up an explanation.

748 :

Finally does something other than putting suspicion on hydras

and pushing/defending his mac vote. I like this engagement, but this is a bit early to be town-reading mala, imo.

I FOS'ed FTL because I thought you guys were being scummy in your weird hydra-dissonce over one of your reads. I was trying to figure out what B&B's actual stance was, since it wasn't clear to me. I'm not sure how you call this putting suspicion on hydras, and I also don't understand why you think that as scum I would try to set up hydras in particular for mislynches. This just makes no sense to me.

873 : About time you got some articulated reads on the table. Could use this as evidence of town gauging, but the reads speak against it. Gotta love how he's got hydras all grouped in his scum/null scum slots. If he just has frustration/difficulty reading hydras, he shouldn't have them all there. His vote on me isn't very well articulated and actually relies on the fact that I was playing logically based on my misunderstanding at one point. Also don't like his point on Mastin. His scum-reads outside of mac aren't very substantive and his town reads are all based in

feels

and

looks

.

Yes, that's what I tend to base my townreads on, what do you base yours on? Smells and tastes? If I have difficulty reading hydras (Which, spoiler alert, I do) doesn't it make sense for my to have them all roughly around null? I seriously do not understand your point with this hydra thing. Also, I thought I made it pretty clear I was adding to the pressure on you (and pressuring B&B as well) in an attempt to get you guys to post some cogent reads that both partners agreed upon.

938 : A really bad case on Mastin, who I'm reading as town at this point. Nick's points are a misrep/strawman on Nick's part, perception of a 'slip', and interpretation of lying without giving proof otherwise.

I don't see how this case is a strawman, and I guess you didn't feel like explaining that one. When I said slip, I mean slip as in "I slipped a 20 dollar bill into a pile of 1s" not "Scum-slipped" He slipped saying that he was conftown into a sentance that wasn't about him, which I didn't like. I don't think I need to provide proof when the guy is already saying that he's lying.

969 : Nick, this sounds a lot like an unfounded OMGUS and I don't know if you're painting it in such a way to avoid responsibility, or if you're legit making a case against someone because his reasons for voting you aren't as articulated as you'd like. Mastin isn't even being exploitative, he's actually really well plotted out if you read him. Having difficulty wrapping my head around town motivation for Nick's case on Mastin.

I don't know why you're calling this OMGUS, since I already said most of why I was voting mastin in the last post you commented on, but whatever. Saying mastin's reasons for voting me aren't as well articulated as I'd like is like saying the Hindenburg's landing wasn't quite as clean as I would have liked.

1022 : Despite practically town-reading Rach earlier, Nick's quick to throw some fuel on the building Rach fire right here without committing a vote.

I'm not sure how waiting for additional content from her is throwing fuel on the fire.

1386 : Gotta call everyone scum, dont'cha?

I don't understand the point of this, my opinion on Rach is consistent and clear.

1504 : This last post is more of what I've seen in 1022. It's like Nick's testing the waters too much with the Rach wagon. If he supports it, he should vote it, and get a damn reaction from it, or something. That's how Nick was playing in his first dozen posts, but it's completely gone here.

First of all, I don't see how this is me testing the waters, I've made my opinion on Rach very clear. I'd like to wait for more information, and I don't think she is a good D1 lynch. I don't understand why you're saying I should vote it, when I've made it very clear why i'm not voting it. As to me playing differently from my first few posts, my play changes as the day goes on. I don't see how this is scummy at all, it's logical. Wagons are unlikely to result in lynches early on in the day, so i'm pretty wagon-happy, whereas later on when things start to solidify I'm much more careful.

[Faster Than Light]

Fairnuff, Nick.

My vote stays, though.
And my reads are based on taste. Why did you think I once asked Cabd to order me a pizza?
I am happy to see your engagement on my case, though. I think that the rest of town can be the judge of which points ring true.

-V

[Ghostlin]

tl;dr

@ghostlin

who are you currently reading as town/scum?

In no particular order:

Town:

Muff, FTL, NS (duh), Des, Mastin, BnB, thezmon (gut, mostly, but he's posted mostly town)

Leaning Town, but not there yet:

Nacho: some of his later content dispells my earlier concerns, but not enough to show the utter commitment and town leadership he showed in Xeno 1. I won't say he's hedging his bets necessarily, but he's taking a something of a passive role.

Mac: Is difficult for me to read. I spent a lot of time in Xeno 1, Day 1 on the useless predicate Mac was scum, and he wasn't that game. He's playing similar enough that I'm comfortable he's probably not scum.

SoS: They go here after their reads post on the players I asked for. They were null (which I'll get to, I promise) but there's enough Town reasoning, even with my wariness of hydrae reading, I can float them here. Their posts have been sound, but have lacked a certain amount of -oomph-.

Null

: AJ: I'm not sure it's lack of posts of lack of him saying something useful, but AJ stays in this kind of dangerous spot. Nothing's he's said has struck me one way or another.

Nickthename: I'm agnostic about Nick. Everything I've read -sounds- Town, but I see other players don't like him, and like AJ, I'm not impressed.

Scum (with strength of read next to it; not in any order, however)

:

TF (weak scum to null): Still giving them shit after that joke I like to call 'supporting Skull on the Mastin lynch without reading it's actual content.' That's probably the most glaring error, but it was almost akin to calling Skull Town without actually calling them Town. I'm also mildly suspicious they felt more ok when I called them out on it, and have been one of the most vocal critics of the Mastin wagon.

Venmar (weak/gut): Something about Venmar makes me uncomfortable. It might be the sheer eagerness of the Mastin wagon, it might be a few other unnameable factors, but I don't like him for town. At all. I concede, that out of the next three people I'm going to talk about, maybe one will be a voting concern.

TD (weak): Nothing's jumped out and bit and it usually does with TD's play after the early wagon this game, and the flail was bad. But it was still the kind of read you have early Day 1, so it's entirely possible I'm still being unfair. It was kind of like 'gee, thanks' when he joined the Skull wagon,
you don't trust gifts from scum reads.

Andrius (weak): Yes, I do read Andrius as weak scum here. Something about his play seems off. He's not as...dedicated or playing it up as much as he was in Xenosaga, and he's not even really bothered to make even perfunctory excuses about his absence. The wagon's a little popular, tho', and there's likely to be one scum on it.

Mala (medium): Mala's too aggressive and has had direct fights with at least me over what stuff in her personal lexicon means after she's accused people of misconstruing her comments. Which leads me to believe, instead of a more muted, or a 'I don't care what you think', she cares VERY much what you think. After a point, calling people on direct misreps from you seems like you actually give a fuck what others think of you. I actually look for this 'tell' in certain arenas of play, and it seems Mala's a very...populist candidate.

RachMarie (medium): The only detraction I have from this wagon is it's very popular, and Day 1 wagons that are popular are almost always driven by scum in some way, shape, or form. This isn't the Rach from Harry Potter, her reads are weak and we had to take them out of a back hoe, and she seems badly off-target, as if she's subtly changed her play, is off target here. You know how people often accuse others of being too helpful? She's ringing the not helpful enough catergory. Also 'I always play this way' isn't a defense, it's a line of comedy.

Mutley/Skull (strong): Skull did nothing, asked inane questions and used them as jumping boards; acted in the laziest possible manner to Town an didn't release coherent reads. If that slot's not scum, then it's incredibly poor Town.

[Faster Than Light]

Speaking of ordering food, there's a place nearby that delivers ice-cream. If you wanna, please get me some. Make if vanilla, though. That's the flavor I always get when I order it. I might even order some tonight, actually. I'll let you know how delicious it is, mwahahah.

@Ghostlin: Muttley isn't exactly a bastion of town play, but I've seen him make good players mid-game.
Out of the overlap in our scum reads, which ones would you like to discuss/see as a D1 lynch? I'd like this day to wrap up soon, it's gone on way too long and I think we have more than enough info to get at least one scum.

-V

[Ghostlin]

1134 : Don't like the idea of wanting the IC dead. I understand that NS's posts are lackluster, but c'mon.

1143 : Hints towards wagon analysis of the mastin wagon, but doesn't go too in-depth. Town-confirms more people, too, but has some articulation as to why.

1462 : Another good content case and post from Ghostlin. Dispels more anti-town thought than I can shake a stick at, but also makes me feel waaaay better about earlier play from him. The comments on NS are pulled back, and previous moments where it felt that Ghostlin wasn't really paying a lot of attention are turned into points made against various players and in justification of a new wagon.

Two things I want to talk about here, although this cements FTL town, so they're discussions about the points he raises here:

1) Until very recently, or until I managed to wrap my head around it, NS was hitting the wrong buttons. If you annoy or confuse me enough, I generally want you dead because I can't tell if you're doing it on purpose or as scum and you're annoying me. That's where 'nuke it from orbit' came from. It was my most blood and guts reaction to NS in general. Looking back, I wonder why Andy asked that particular question, because honestly? Vig shots on a IC are a wasted resource, no matter how much I disagree with the player in general.

Also, not included above in the reasoning of the reads is Mala going 'why are you ignoring the conf-Town player?'

A few points of why I don't like this:

*Exceptionally pro-town players get listened to. They don't always get their candidates to eat rope, I've been fucking living and breathing proof in games where people call me fucking protown and still don't necessarily follow my lead on lynches. NS is confirmed town, not pro-town by himself.

*IC just makes PoE easier, really, unless the players worked his ass off to be pro-town.

*The best analysis of a Town player is when they're dead. That's gotta be the most horrible thing ever said, but I said it. Who did they like, who did they not like? Who benefits, and who comes short? Who were their allies? These enable you to find scum even on a weaker player.

*IC doesn't mean infallible except in the sense they're 100% Town.

*I don't believe Mala's not smart enough to not know all of the above. I think this is a way to manufacture Town-cred by going to the poor innocent child's cause, NS, when we've pretty covered the whole 'don't kill NS unless you want to scum claim right the fuck now', spectrum of things. We don't have to pay special credence to his words, we just have to at the very least, accept he's Town and leave him alone.

2) Re: my reasoning on Mastin being weak. I'm not going to say much about Mastin for obvious reasons except I find him exceedingly genuine, protown and mostly because his crazy is hard to duplicate. There are a few private tells that Mastin has passed that I am not going to share with Town at this time.

[Ghostlin]

Speaking of ordering food, there's a place nearby that delivers ice-cream. If you wanna, please get me some. Make if vanilla, though. That's the flavor I always get when I order it. I might even order some tonight, actually. I'll let you know how delicious it is, mwahahah.

@Ghostlin: Muttley isn't exactly a bastion of town play, but I've seen him make good players mid-game.
Out of the overlap in our scum reads, which ones would you like to discuss/see as a D1 lynch? I'd like this day to wrap up soon, it's gone on way too long and I think we have more than enough info to get at least one scum.

-V

Our choices, from your reads list, V, are Trust Fund/Andrius. That's not much there to work with.

I could see my way onto an Andrius lynch, but I like RM quite a bit more and will probably end on that wagon MUCH closer to lynch. I don't trust my Trust Fund read at this juncture enough to push it much more beyond 'let's continue to discuss Trust Fund's play'.

[Ghostlin]

oh look at that, peeps were pushing skull and bam turns out he is replacing out? What is with going after low hanging fruit eh? How about we catch real scum instead?

You know, I have extreme and abiding faith in my Skullduggery read.

Don't fuck it up by trying to outscum with this pathetic, unworthy of you, waste of bytes misdirection. God, you ARE scum this game, aren't you?

No, don't answer that, it's what we call hyperbole/rhetorical question.

[Ghostlin]

Hey Ghostlin, I don't think I heard back from you re those players you wanted our thoughts about.

Sup?

Still want them. Comfortable about your slot. I thought you had posted them and I missed them, but I guess not.

[Malakittens]

Has anyone considered me being aggressive is NOT an alignment tell? There has been multiple games where this has been brought up.

If you misrep me of course I'm going to accuse you of a misrep. I don't stand for that. if it wasn't a direct misrep I would have left it alone, but it was a direct misrep. The fact you are bringing it up and trying to paint me scum from it is ridiculous.

I have to get to FTL's post after work. I have some issues with it.

[Faster Than Light]

Has anyone considered me being aggressive is NOT an alignment tell? There has been multiple games where this has been brought up.

If you misrep me of course I'm going to accuse you of a misrep. I don't stand for that. if it wasn't a direct misrep I would have left it alone, but it was a direct misrep. The fact you are bringing it up and trying to paint me scum from it is ridiculous.

I have to get to FTL's post after work. I have some issues with it.

It makes sense, it's just that aggression can be a good wall of smoke to hide behind as scum. It's all about motivation/reason.

-V

[Faster Than Light]

Speaking of ordering food, there's a place nearby that delivers ice-cream. If you wanna, please get me some. Make if vanilla, though. That's the flavor I always get when I order it. I might even order some tonight, actually. I'll let you know how delicious it is, mwahahah.

@Ghostlin: Muttley isn't exactly a bastion of town play, but I've seen him make good players mid-game.
Out of the overlap in our scum reads, which ones would you like to discuss/see as a D1 lynch? I'd like this day to wrap up soon, it's gone on way too long and I think we have more than enough info to get at least one scum.

-V

Our choices, from your reads list, V, are Trust Fund/Andrius. That's not much there to work with.

I could see my way onto an Andrius lynch, but I like RM quite a bit more and will probably end on that wagon MUCH closer to lynch. I don't trust my Trust Fund read at this juncture enough to push it much more beyond 'let's continue to discuss Trust Fund's play'.

MS and I would both be really happy with an Andrius lynch, to be honest. We're null on Rach, and I really think her getting through to D2 will be where we can set the bar for her. Her D2 plays will inform us a lot more than her D1 plays (meta speaking here) and the lynch/kill will inform us way more on Rach than her content so far. It feels like there isn't enough from her yet, and with how much D2 will slow the game, I feel like she'd have no good excuse not to create some worth-while, alignment-indicative material.
I agree that Trust Fund's play is questionable. I'm holding that it's anti-town and quite possibly scum motivated, but other people seem a bit hesitant to agree.

-V

[Malakittens]

Has anyone considered me being aggressive is NOT an alignment tell? There has been multiple games where this has been brought up.

If you misrep me of course I'm going to accuse you of a misrep. I don't stand for that. if it wasn't a direct misrep I would have left it alone, but it was a direct misrep. The fact you are bringing it up and trying to paint me scum from it is ridiculous.

I have to get to FTL's post after work. I have some issues with it.

It makes sense, it's just that aggression can be a good wall of smoke to hide behind as scum. It's all about motivation/reason.

-V

Also could be a good town motivation to hide behind too (;

[Sound of Silence]

Hey Ghostlin, I don't think I heard back from you re those players you wanted our thoughts about.

Sup?

Still want them. Comfortable about your slot. I thought you had posted them and I missed them, but I guess not.

I posted them in 1158. How do they line up with your thoughts?

[Sound of Silence]

but other people seem a bit hesitant to agree

I pretty strongly disagree with that read, actually.