Mini 2266: GnG's Upick Mafia [GAME OVER]

Shiro · Post Post #1725 (ISO) » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:02 pm

In post 1109, Roden wrote:. I said vampires aren't town-aligned, that's it

I mean roden are you even trying?

Shiro · Post Post #1726 (ISO) » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:02 pm

You said specifically that vampires aren't town.

Shiro · Post Post #1727 (ISO) » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:03 pm

I don't even know what's going on anymore.

Roden · Post Post #1728 (ISO) » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:17 pm

In post 1721, Shiro wrote:
In post 1006, Roden wrote:Sneak hood just cracked wide open...I may have a hard guilty.
Wasn't even hard to find.

I said "may" because at the time Dunn was freaking out in the hood when I asked if he was town-aligned, which Angel admitted happened. I made it clear it wasn't a guilty when we explained the situation after that post. Why are you ignoring that?

In post 1725, Shiro wrote:
In post 1109, Roden wrote:. I said vampires aren't town-aligned, that's it
I mean roden are you even trying?

In post 1726, Shiro wrote:You said specifically that vampires aren't town.

Not town-aligned =/= guilty. I asked Dunn multiple times if he could town side. Why are you ignoring that as well?

Enchant · Post Post #1729 (ISO) » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:20 pm

In post 1728, Roden wrote:Not town-aligned =/= guilty.

Quote of year.

ISO · Post Post #1730 (ISO) » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:33 pm

Alright, so I'm town, and on Saturday,

Spoiler: I had this to say privately

The mental crisis has passed, tho I'm tempted to make the image anyway (ironically, the mental crisis made it hard to make the image so by the time I could make the image, I no longer had the crisis of the image.)

But let me quickly reiterate:
This is the towniest I have ever been in a game.

Pooky is delusional, and jjh scum, respectively, for their inability to see that.

To break down why I am town, there's multiple facets to it.

1:

I have

NEVER

had an emotional meltdown as scum before.

This is, of course, not a trust tell; emotional meltdowns are not something I deliberately have as town and avoid having as scum. So it is fully possible that I

could

have an emotional meltdown as scum. However, I have never faked an emotional meltdown as scum nor have I had a genuine meltdown as scum before. This is not to say those things are impossible, but there is an importance in noting the importance of

probability versus theoretical possibility

.
Yes, it is

theoretically

possible

that I could have a meltdown as scum or fake a meltdown as scum.
It is not

probable

and in fact is so statistically speaking unlikely as to be

effectively

impossible.

Proof that I did in fact have a mental meltdown this game is wide-spanning. I am afraid to link to twitter, my blog (speaking of which,

jjh reads my blog when we play games together

and that he hasn't noted the correlation in blog/game things is one of the reasons he's scum), and elsewhere on the site to demonstrate that this meltdown was very much real and very much not limited to this game in spite of being directly caused by this game. I'm not sure what I am allowed to say and allowed to link to in terms of demonstrating that it was there and it was real, but suffice to say, across everywhere online (including discord), it showed. The last half week or so I have been in the worst mental state I've been in for 12 years, and this game is directly responsible for 90% of that (the other 10% mostly being effectively stood up by my psychiatrist).

However, while I can't safely show those out-of-game examples of the meltdown, I can safely point to the in-game posts that are complete and total emotional meltdowns that may in spite of me trying to show the utmost of restraint in my emotional crisis, still end up getting me banned after the fact. (What you saw in this game was me

holding back

from much much worse. To give you an idea of what you

didn't

see but would've if I had lost my restraint, do you know how many posts of mine I almost wrote the ableist R-word? Yes, REALLY. I was so bad off that literally every post directed towards Pooky almost called Pooky the ablist R-word. Along with holding back from repeated "go fuck yourself"s and "fuck off"s and "You're a fucking moron"s and the like. So take that into account; those are examples of what I

almost

said but held back from saying because of fear of the banhammer which I may still receive because of not showing

enough

restraint. It could've been much, much worse but it is still not great.)

Spoiler: Ingame Examples of My Meltdown

There are more things than the above, but I left them out because the other things could, feasibly, be within the realms of a scumastina. The things I didn't include could feasibly be scumastina rage or even (pseudo-)fake rage.

The spoilered parts? No, those are well beyond the capability of scumastina to fake-rage.

If you want some instances to prove this, This game was one of the first instances of a town meltdown from me. It was present the whole time I was scumread but really started to get worse from there. You can see it get worse and then MUCH worse and continues throughout the day to progressively descend. I got more emotional as the push continued, and the proof became more obvious. You can see me get progressively worse. The more I was pushed, the more I got worse. Culminating in this.

"Okay but that was one towngame years ago." (One which I would say incidentally has a hilarious number of overlaps with this game by the way up to and including it coming at a time I had high scumplay ability.)

Well how about this game around this point? I don't have any scumgame with a post like that but the similarity to this game should be self-evident.

One far more famous meltdown would be Present in this game and you can see I get worse as the push continues and then you will find a VERY familiar type of post here which continues into VERY familiar posting here, which culminated in something all too familiar. Noteworthy?

jjh was in this game and is intimately familiar with the pattern displayed being a town-mastina

.

Leading up to the example directly below was prior to a ban, a game that gave me a warning.

And the best example of my emotional breakdown as town? That would be the game that

I actually got

banned

for

. (Notably,

jjh was also in this game and is intimately familiar with a town-mastina having an emotional breakdown

.)

Perhaps the most recent example was Triplicate after I thought the town had lost a game from mislimming me. The sheer undiluted pure rage there was genuine.

Contrast; how do I act when scum? This is about as close to rage as you get from scumastina.

Yes, I make posts like this as scum, but that post is nothing like my posts this game. Look at my rants that game, and you may note that my hostility is for things

not tied to my alignment

. Every emotional post I made was about NAI things.

Even in my most recently completed scumgame

, the closest you get to rage is posts like this, which are ranting about role-related things. But there's a calmness to it. I never show true anger.

tl;dr:

I have a strong track record of having emotional breakdowns as town and

zero

record of an emotional breakdown as scum.

2:

I have

NEVER

treated scumbuddies the way I have treated Gypyx/Dwlee this game.

This one, I can also verify if you wish for me to track it down, but to show you the ingame posts I mean for this:

In post 99, mastina wrote:Dunnstral
Roden
jjh927

Titus

Reinhardt

Frozen Angel
Lady Lambdadelta
Shiro

Gypyx
Enchant

Yume
PookyTheMagicalBear

Locktown town
lean town
null lean scum scum </3

Reinhardt, the Dwlee slot, was in "lean town". I am like 85% sure that I've never listed a scumbuddy in that tier before--scumbuddies have always been fairly strong town, null, or south of null. I can pull up past readslists of scumastina for proof of this to show off. Now, obviously, scumastina does change her scumgame off so there's always a first game and inevitably there will be a scumgame where I

do

put a scumbuddy there, because scumastina tends to place scumbuddies either where she finds it most natural to place them, or where she believes it is most strategic to place them. (Sometimes these overlap, obv.) So this isn't really a deliberate thing, but it's a

just so happens

to be,

as of this game

, something that is true. Something that will eventually be broken, but has yet to be broken.

In post 109, mastina wrote:
In post 103, jjh927 wrote:VOTE: Gypyx
In post 105, Titus wrote:VOTE: Gypyx
In post 106, Roden wrote:VOTE: Gypyx
In post 107, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:VOTE: Gypyx
In post 108, Dunnstral wrote:VOTE: Gypyx
Hello, because I am town, I think I missed the memo here.

Gypyx is a lean scum sure but why did we suddenly decide to put Gypyx at L-2?

I realize that asking this question will be suspect if Gypyx does end up flipping scum (but I'll manage, since I am in fact town), but, uh. Five votes manifesting out of nowhere in the span of six posts with absolutely no explanation whatsoever? I get that Gypyx looks suspect, but in a bastard game when I see five votes for a player with zero reason over the course of six posts, it makes me wonder if there's some sort of hidden mechanic that I wasn't invited to?

This is a post I've never made before as scum but

have

made as town. There is multiple layers to it. There is the self-awareness that it could later be scummy, something I'm pretty sure I've never noted before as scum--

as scum, if I think something might be scummy later, I just won't post it

.

But as town, I have the awareness to know that, lacking the information of scum, something I say may in hindsight come across as suspect, but will say it anyway because I feel it is important enough to say.

More than that,

I have never made this type of defense of a scumbuddy before

. The closest I have ever gotten was this post:

In post 1356, mastina wrote:
In post 1040, Galron wrote:The thing about ircher is that I hate multiquote when it's responding to more than one person. My eyes just glaze over. And it's difficult to quote snip. I've read through his two wall multi-quotes though and they're on point, just not a lot of depth. But that's pot and kettle.
While I feel like Ircher is scum, I am honor-bound to defend him on this point in spite of how it'd potentially weaken my standing in terms of pushing Ircher as scum, in that Ircher doing the multiquote with things that are on-point is actually his town meta.

It's just that him not having depth is still him being scum since the difference between town and scum is that town quotestripes and is onpoint with depth and Ircher as scum occasionally (but does not as consistently) quotestripes onpoint but lacks depth.

In this post, you can see me defend my scumbuddy Ircher, while still pushing him--my vote was on Ircher at the time.

In contrast, my vote was

not

on Gypyx at the time. The defense is totally different, too. My defense of Ircher was me making it deliberately as weak as possible--

I was afraid that defending Ircher against an invalid point would be seen as suspicious later

. So I deliberately made my defense as light as possible, 'technicalities', "devil's advocate", etc. I was deliberately making my defense, try to not be seen as a defense after Ircher flipped scum.

Whereas my defense of Gypyx was basically a total opposite.

On Ircher I made the defense look as much like it wasn't a defense as possible; on Gypyx, the attack aspect was as weak as possible and the defense was the main part.

Yet that sort of in-between posting just doesn't exist in my scumgame.

I have

always

placed my scumbuddies in {strong town, null, south of null}, rather than more ambivalent

.

In post 110, mastina wrote:(That said,
Intent to hammer Gypyx
if there's one more vote there. I absolutely will cast a vote on Gypyx with so much as one more vote there, because ultimately, while I am town here, I feel like Gypyx has a high enough chance to flip scum that I'm not too concerned about some sort of shenanigans in the votes piled on especially given I townread 4/5 of the names involved.)

This post was intended to be a part of the prior post but I forgot to include it in the prior post. This post was directly role-related, in me trying to set up for a fake-hammer on Gypyx.

I have never tried to set up a scumbuddy with a faked gambit

(more on that below tho).

More than that?

I have never shown this hesitance to vote a scumbuddy

.
Now, I have shown hesitance to vote

town

players before.
Repeatedly.
Like, a TON of hesitation.

That hesitation is nonexistent for voting scum from scumastina.

In post 178, mastina wrote:Gypyx
Enchant

Yume
PookyTheMagicalBear

lean scum scum </3
VOTE: Gypyx

Unvote: Gypyx

This is demonstrably the opposite of scumastina's vote strategy. scumastina will state a strong scumread on a scumbuddy, then vote for a lesser scumread, when the lesser scumread happens to be town. Here is a prominent example of this in action; my strongest scumread

the entire game

was Cephrir, but tellingly, instead of voting my strongest scumread who was my scumbuddy, I voted a lesser scumread who was town.

In this game, I had a stronger scumread who was town and a weaker scumread that was scum. I kept the vote on the weaker scumread, but if I were scum then Gypyx and Pooky would've been swapped in my readslist.

3:

I have

NEVER

pushed a town player the way I pushed Pooky as scum.

This one is also easily verifiable with research if you wish me to track it down, but again, to show you some ingame proof:

In post 45, mastina wrote:
In post 29, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
I will participate
Scum. </3

In post 97, mastina wrote:
In post 61, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:I am a one shot miller cuz i got a free mage perk
go me
It saddens my town heart that Pooky is scum here. </3

In post 99, mastina wrote:Dunnstral
Roden
jjh927

Titus

Reinhardt

Frozen Angel
Lady Lambdadelta
Shiro

Gypyx
Enchant

Yume

PookyTheMagicalBear

Locktown town lean town null lean scum
scum </3

I have never made any post remotely like this as scum. When I have been scum before and I say that a player is 'scum', the player in question has always been a player that was either my scumbuddy, or when the player was town, a player on the weaker end of the play spectrum.

I don't post "</3" to a player I am scumreading as scum* because "</3" is a thought I have when a player that I like and love to play with, is a player that I suspect to be scum. It's not an easy term to search, but I'm pretty sure that if you could figure out a way to search for "</3" in my post history,

literally every result would be a towngame

. Of course, this is something that I am just now thinking of so in future games I as scum if I can have foresight will need to fake it to break the tell, but

up until this moment

, I was genuinely unaware. Meaning that this was a genuine example of, up until this game, a towntell of mine (that I just wasn't aware of until now).

*(this is not good wording as this wording would be ban-worthy but I'm not sure the right wording to use, it's not that I don't, so much as it just isn't something that would occur to a scumastina but I'm not sure how to explain this right now, it's not a trust tell but I don't have the wording to describe why it's not a trust tell but town-mastina thinks in a certain way that scumastina just doesn't)

This post leading up to my swap to a Pooky vote is something I have never done before as scum. In the rare instances where I have had a "strong scumread" on a strong town player, I transitioned

out of

the scumread on them--not

into

the scumread. scumastina when scumreading strong town will use it as a tool to demonstrate faked read progression on the player and eventually swap them to town; a town mastina instead scumreads who she scumreads, and will push them regardless of who they are.

You can see how I strongly pushed Pooky here, and genuinely was thinking he was scum. I can get references of me doing this as town; every instance of me doing this as scum comes from the lategame when it is a necessity to clutch the win.

You can see it continue in my push of jjh.

I have

never

pushed jjh as scum

, but notably,

I have pushed jjh as town before

.

I also break this down in this post, but to give the

Spoiler: Relevant Part

4:

I have (almost)

NEVER

actively pursued being on a town elimination and off of a scum elimination.

This one is quite simple for why. As scum, being on a town mislim looks bad; being

off

of a town mislim looks good. When at all possible, that means that I can avoid being on the town wagon at the end of day.
Now, this doesn't mean I will be voting scum; I can vote one town while the town eliminates a different town.
But when at all possible, I avoid being on town mislims because I

know

people will see "on town wagon, is suspect", and to players off the wagon think "off the town wagon, looks more town".

And the inverse also applies. When a scum player is being eliminated, it is usually better to be on it. I explain this here:

Spoiler: Relevant Explanation

5:

My scumplay tends to treat scumbuddies the same way, but my treatment of Gypyx and Dwlee was visibly and obviously different.

Notably, I was off the Dwlee wagon but on the Gypyx wagon after a while. But it even shows in my readslists.

In post 99, mastina wrote:Dunnstral
Roden
jjh927

Titus

Reinhardt

Frozen Angel
Lady Lambdadelta
Shiro

Gypyx

Enchant

Yume
PookyTheMagicalBear

Locktown town
lean town
null
lean scum
scum </3

I talk about this more in this post, where I word it a different way.

Spoiler: Relevant Section

In post 1456, mastina wrote:The way I treated Gypyx/Dwlee is provably and demonstrably a way that I've
never
treated scumbuddies in the past
ever
because there literally is only two ways scumastina treats scumbuddies:
Either I try to defend the scumbuddies by not voting them...
...Or I try to be the sacrificial lamb and bus them with the intent of my death conftowning them.

Every scumgame of mine follows that basic pattern because it is quite simply: the most optimal way to play scum.

If you're going to defend scum, you need to
defend
scum. Defending scum without defending scum is stupidly obvious and everyone looks for it as being from scum. (Whereas if you hard-defend scum, people tend to think wrong-town instead.)
If you're going to bus scum, you need to
bus
scum. That means actively scumreading, pushing, and voting them. Bussing scum by hopping onto the wagon when momentum shifts that way is stupidly obvious and everyone looks for it as being what scum bussing do.

Like, literally. Every time I look for bussing, I look for the players who do precisely that. I look not for the players who hard-pushed or hard-defended. I look for the players who hedged their bets, because statistically speaking, that's where scum tend to be.

I realize that, yes, scumastina has invented new scum strategies this year. I realize that, yes, scumastina always evolves her play. I realize that, yes, scumastina needs to not fall into trust tells so playing to her win condition involves breaking established towntells whenever is possible.

So I realize that it is
possible
for this to be the first scumgame I've had where I would do that.
Possible
--not probable.

Because the most probable is that my scumplay uses the same tactics that I know have worked for literally years. Literally both my scum wins this year were not reinventing the wheel; they were just a return to form of the old scumastina formula that worked for years upon years prior to that. And both fell into one of the two archetypes above. In subreddit uPick, I hard-defended both scumbuddies for as long as I could and tried to save them for as long as I possibly could. In CONTROL, I hard-bussed
my entire scumteam
because I wanted to prop my scumbuddies up in the case that I went down early. (As it so happened, it ended up that I was propped up instead, but that's the thing about hard-bussing; it works regardless of which scum is the survivor in having the intended effect of propping the other up.)

The treatment of Gypyx and Dwlee do not match my scumplay at all.

scumastina tends to EITHER: hard-bus her scumteam, OR: hard-defend her scumteam, with virtually no in-between

. (With a fair number of nulls thrown in for good measure, but always having one of the two dominant overall.)

6:

scumastina

never

sheeps group momentum/consensus/etc.; town mastina very frequently

does

.

scumastina knows that "being stubborn" and going against the grain frequently gets townreads. She also knows that sheeping reads tends to mean that you get no credit for being on a scum elimination and you look hella suspicious for being on a town elimination. As a result, she avoids like the plague sheeping the town, because she knows she will be seen as suspect for sheeping.

As a result, scumastina has a very strong tendency to have reads which do not match with the reads of the town.

In contrast, a town-mastina has three axes of scumhunting. Generic tells, meta tells, and group consensus. A town-mastina can, and is, influenced by group consensus in her reads. My reads on all of Gypyx, Pooky, and Dwlee were directly influenced by the reads of others on those slots.

The fact that I was "sheeping" is proof that I am town.

7:

I have (almost)

NEVER

"OMGUS"'d as scum.

By this, I mean, "if you were town, you would know that I am town".
That simple.

I'm pretty sure with like 90% certainty that I have never said that, or anything resembling that, as scum before because it is not a thought that would occur to a scumastina. After all, scumastina knows that she is scum, so she knows that players scumreading her are scumreading her legitimately. She may get frustrated that a town player is not townreading her, but she will not go "this player is not townreading me, therefore, they must be scum".

In contrast, this is a signature part of my towngame. In every game I am scumread when I am town, I will almost always have a scumread on at least one of the people who are not townreading me, if they are a player who has played with me before.

If a player is intimately familiar with my play as both alignments but especially my towngame, then they

should

be able to tell that I am town and the absence of that is scum-indicative.

And on that note?

jjh is scum for precisely this reason

.

jjh has seen my scumgame and should know that even my scumgame is nothing like what I have displayed in this game;
jjh has seen my towngame countless times and should know I am tripping towntells that I haven't tripped as scum ever before.

8:

I have (almost)

NEVER

gambited or fake-gambited as scum.

This one is dangerously close to the updated trust tell rule, so this one I need to be careful about stating, but basically: scumastina believes that the best weapon is the truth. Gambits/Fake-Gambits are, inherently, lies. It's admittedly more of an incidental thing tho. It's not that I have a policy against gambits/fake-gambits, so much as it is,

I genuinely never think of the possibility

. Gambiting/Fake-Gambiting is just something that I never think of as scum, because it's just not something that occurs to me. Why doesn't it, heck if I know, but the way my brain is wired, I just legit never think of the idea of "this would be a good gambit to pull".

Now, when I say 'gambit'/'fake-gambit', I mean mostly "move involving falsification of information/a situation", more or less.

Every time I bus is technically a ""gambit"", and sure, I think of ""gambits"" involving play-based decisions: bussing is a ""gambit"", and using night actions in a way that can be construed as town and later truthfully claiming those actions is a ""gambit"", but when I say I haven't gambited or fake-gambited as scum before, what I mean is that I haven't made shit up as part of a gambit before, basically ever. It's

possible

, since it technically has happened before, but for whatever reason it just never occurs to me these days. I

suspect

my policy of "honesty is the best policy" plays a part in me not thinking of it, but even if I didn't have that policy, I'm not sure I would think to pull off a gambit.

In this game, I very clearly

did

pull off a gambit involving Dwlee.

Spoiler: Some Relevant Parts

In post 1493, mastina wrote:
In post 1474, jjh927 wrote:Mastina, how can your 'belief' that Dwlee fell for the fake E-1 conftown YOU?
Because,
-Scumbuddies are more likely to remember the role of their scumbuddies,
-I would have very specifically told Dwlee about the gambit,
-The gambit isn't timed correctly for me as Dwlee's scumbuddy but IS timed correctly for me as town,
-I don't think of moves like this as scum but have a
very fucking long history
of thinking of these sorts of moves as town,
-I literally wouldn't be able to so much as
think
of the gambit in the first place as scum because scumastina has a philosophy of KISS, keeping plans simple and not inventing extra steps to them.

In post 1474, jjh927 wrote:Like, you're saying that your belief in a thing makes it more likely that it conftowns you when that makes no sense as you're lying if you're scum.
Yeah and among my many scum skills, faking conviction is
not
among them. My strength as a scum player comes from genuine conviction in what I am saying to be true, or true enough.

So when it comes to the conviction involved, it's not whether it's real or not because it's
always
real.

It's more to do with how likely that conviction is to come from town vs how likely that conviction is to come from scum.

My belief that Dwlee hard-conftown'd four players is not conviction that comes from scum because scumastina doesn't think to conftown three players with herself as a fourth.

In post 1507, mastina wrote:
In post 1480, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:in fact there's no way in hell mastina!scum could say to dwlee!scum hey im going to fake l-1 you so you can fake hammer yourself
As a matter of fact?

In fact there is no way in hell scumastina could say that because that's not how scumastina thinks.

In post 1483, jjh927 wrote:Why would scum actually want Dwlee to 'not realise' it was a fake hammer?
Scum
would
want Dwlee to realize it was a fake hammer, that's my point precisely for why Dwlee not realizing it wasn't a real hammer makes all the members of the sneak neighborhood conftown.

In post 1483, jjh927 wrote: He was already guiltied scum and it's actually +scum to have him on the wagon since it denies town exp
Only if someone hammers after Dwlee L-1s themselves.

If Dwlee left their self-vote on, guess what?

While that denies us one member on the wagon, it allows for the entire rest of the wagon to be what the town chooses it to be. Since Dwlee couldn't cast a hammer vote while already self-voting, that means the only way for the day to end was if the town chose to let the day end and have a wagon composition they were satisfied with.

In other words, Dwlee casting the self-vote without it being an actual hammer was incredibly pro-town because it would let the town choose the other five names on the wagon freely.

In post 1485, jjh927 wrote:Why would scum!me not have got on the Dwlee wagon well before your E-1 and just got Dwlee to hammer?
Why would scumastina not have cast a
real
Dwlee vote and just got Dwlee to hammer?

In post 1516, mastina wrote:
In post 1489, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:her argument about dwlee conftowning her like YOU CAN GET YOUR SCUMBUDDY TO CONFTOWN YOU IN THREAD IS A FUCKING JOKE AND I CANT BELIEVE ANYONE COULD TAKE IT SERIOUSLY FOR EVEN TWO SECONDS.
This is me. My logic. I'm town but my logic is still there and valid.
In post 1494, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:its such a level of absurdity that I don't understand how a rational human being could possibly believe it.
This is how I think.

In post 1494, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:Like "I'm conftown because this scum player didn't know something I said in a hood"
Yes!

That's not shit logic.

That's actually clearing.

That you think otherwise is a problem with YOU.

Not with me.

In post 1491, jjh927 wrote:Indeed, and yet when I called it disingenuous Mastina threw the "no u" at me
Because it
is
disingenuous as fuck.
Pooky backing you up doesn't make the point be any less disingenuous-as-fuck.

In post 1529, mastina wrote:
In post 1520, jjh927 wrote:I don't recall that happening. What actually happened was a vote fairly quickly afterwards and the day ending.
Oh, sure--but that wasn't my doing or Dwlee's doing, now, was it?

It doesn't matter what
actually
happened;
What matters
for the Dwlee clearing the sneak Neighborhod point
was the
intent
and
theory
behind what was
intended
to happen.

If LLD had not hammered, then everything I said was true. If Dwlee left their self-vote on while it'd deny us one member on the wagon, it'd allow for the entire rest of the wagon to be what the town chose it to be. Since Dwlee couldn't cast a hammer vote while already self-voting, that meant the only way for the day to end was if the town chose to let the day end and have a wagon composition they were satisfied with.

In other words, Dwlee casting the self-vote without it being an actual hammer was incredibly pro-town because it would let the town choose the other five names on the wagon freely.

LLD did hammer though, so presumably to LLD she was town that let the day end satisfied with the wagon composition. Since LLD is town, I would assume that she wouldn't have hammered otherwise.

In post 1520, jjh927 wrote:you're justifying it very badly post-hoc.
That's
you
, by ignoring how LLD's hammer vote was out of my control and not something that I had taken into account.

You're justifying something that was something that could not have been something I could have foreseen, something that I could not have controlled.

I have no sway over LLD. If anything, I have the opposite of sway over LLD. So LLD hammering after I did what I did is, regardless of my alignment: something I would never have foreseen as having happened.

And you saying "the wagon ended with that composition right then and there", while ignoring the cause of that was something I had no input on, is again: disingenuous as fuck from you.

In post 1520, jjh927 wrote:Because I don't think anyone wanted you to be on the wagon and that would look bad for you.
Name a single time I've given a fuck about something like that; I'll wait.

In post 1543, mastina wrote:
In post 1526, jjh927 wrote:I'm baffled that you could still try to argue that your fake E-1 had literally any game effect whatsoever, honestly
We've explained it enough times that it really doesn't
And I've pointed out why your explanations are shit and why it did.

Just because you
said
it didn't have an effect, doesn't mean it
didn't
.

It had a very tangible one.

It literally confirmed the entirety of the Sneak Hood to not be scum with Dwlee.

In post 1526, jjh927 wrote:Part of the reason you're so clearly scum here to me is that I actually respect your ability to parse logic to the point where I can't believe you would still, at this point, genuinely be making the argument that you conftowned your entire hood with that
And the reason YOU are scum is that YOU have a
very good ability
to parse
mastina-logic
. You are one of the
go-to translators
for mastina-logic into normal-logic. YOU can see more or less what I am thinking, and translate it from unusual-mastina-wording into more standard grounded points.

You are good at figuring out what I am saying, why I am saying it, why I believe it, and analyzing it, pointing out the merits behind it and the flaws behind it, and then translating that into useful takes from it.

But that's absent here because instead of an attempt to understand it and translate it, you are reverse-engineering it. You are coming from the perspective of it being scum and not making sense; you are coming from the perspective of it being false, not putting the effort into reading why I would, as town, believe it. Something you as town SHOULD have the ability to do.

I refuse to believe a town-jjh is so incompetent at translating me this game that he cannot see how a town-mastina would think she had an "a-HA! Gotcha!!!" moment on Dwlee.

That doesn't even mean that the moment need be valid! You can disagree with it being valid! A town-jjh can see mastina-logic and then disagree with it being accurate.

A town-jjh would NOT be unable to see it altogether though and you saying you can't is
literally a scumclaim from you
.

It doesn't matter if you think the gambit was real;
It doesn't matter if you think the gambit was good;
It doesn't matter if you think the gambit did nothing;
What matters is

that

there WAS a gambit

in the

first

place

.

You can argue that the gambit was never going to work; you can argue that the gambit was shit; you can argue that the gambit was illogical and clearly no town player could genuinely think it resulted in something (although I'm town and I very much do think so), but you cannot argue the gambit didn't exist, and the existence of the gambit is proof that I am town.

9:

There Was No Successful Scum Nightkill N2 (and for that matter, probably not N3*).

*Unless scum killed Dunnstral, which is a move I would not make mind you, the scum kill is absent for both nights. If the scum burned through a player's bulletproof vest on N2, then said player would be vulnerable N3, and yet no scum death that we know of occurred. That, aside from the fact that I had a vig and vig + scumkill is enough to bypass a bulletproof since a bulletproof protects from

one

kill and vig + scum nightkill is

two

.

There was no deaths N2.
The thing about that though, is I had a Vig night action.
I had a Vig which I, provably, used.

Frozen Angel has confirmed that I attempted a nightkill in this game.

Given that Dwlee committed the N1 murder of LLD,

I could not have killed N1 as scum.

Given that I could not have committed the N1 murder, but I am confirmed to have attempted a kill in the game,

It is confirmed that I attempted a kill either N2 or N3.

But nobody died.

If I were scum, there would have been a successful kill performed.

But there wasn't, and you know why?

There is a 95+% chance that Dwlee committed the N2 nightkill and was roleblocked by Dunnstral.

Why?
Well, the scumteam was setting up for Dwlee to be eliminated on D3. Occam's razor, what makes more sense? That the last scum risked exposing themselves by performing a nightkill, which mysteriously did not work in spite of them having one neighborhood's worth of full information on protective purchases/actions/etc....

...Or that the scumteam sent Dwlee to kill, knowing that Dwlee was going down anyway so they might as well perform the kill? And that it failed due to the rolestop.

This is also supported by the fact that

if

Dunnstral were the N3 scum nightkill, it'd likely be as a direct result of Dunnstral having been crucial in being a part of the Dwlee elimination. So why would the scum eliminate Dunnstral if Dunnstral's roleblock did not hinder the scum and had nothing to do with Dwlee's elimination?

But critically,

I knew about Dunnstral's rolestop of Dwlee in advance.

And thus, I could not be scum with Dwlee who allowed Dwlee to make a kill I knew would fail.

10:

I was crucial in being responsible for the cop guilty in the first place.

I upgraded Frozen Angel, the source of the guilty on Dwlee. She got that guilty

because I upgraded her role

.
Now, obviously, I wouldn't know FA would upgrade into a cop role, but as scum this was still incredibly risky to do because upgrading FA could cause any number of bad things for the scum, in exchange for...what, cheap towncred??? What's the scum motivation for upgrading FA? Hoping that her townflip makes me look more town? Hoping that my scumflip makes her look more scum? The motivation is an incredible stretch and violates risk-reward analysis.

Because the least-risky and highest-reward thing to do would be to engineer upgrade either myself or my scumbuddy (Dwlee in this case).

Related to this:

11:

My role actions never come from scum.

On N1, I bodyguarded Lady Lambdadelta. This is something I would never do as scum, since the wording on the bodyguard role PM made it possible that a strongman kill would be redirected onto the bodyguard. Beyond that, using my bodyguard on LLD when the scumteam has a strongman inherently gives away the existence of the strongman

and

makes my claim be less believable. As scum I had multiple players I could have claimed to protect. Any of my hoodmates, jjh, Titus, or Shiro, all were people scumastina could claim to have bodyguarded.

On N2, I shot Yume. This is something I

could

do as scum, but the far more likely course of action would be to shoot a displayed scumread (Yume was one) that

I thought was a big threat

--jjh, in this case. Yes, that'd have resulted in the shot being wasted just like it apparently was anyway since jjh was apparently immune anyway, but the fact still stands that as scum, my vig wasn't something I would be inclined to use on Yume, but instead would go on {Shiro, Enchant, jjh} especially the latter two because those were the possible candidates I could get away with shooting that would be the most beneficial to me.

On N3, I bodyguarded Titus. This is something I

could

do as scum, but for the reasons I laid out in the neighborhood PT, LLD was the far better protection for a scumastina to make last night, as it'd leave Titus wide open to attack. LLD's death wouldn't be as bad for the town as Titus's death, so bullshitting a protection justification on LLD ("she died N1, she probably will be the target N3") while killing Titus would be the optimal play.

I also attempted to coordinate protections with Dunnstral. (Dunn did not cooperate there, which again btw is a reason I wouldn't kill him for what it's worth.) While this has a scum motivation in trying to figure out who Dunn will protect, the town motivation is also laid out in our neighborhood PT, because I wasn't forcing it down Dunn's throat, I was asking about the options involved and laying out the pros/cons of each.

12:

My role is never a scum role.

I can quote why from my own posts, but I think FA does it better than I can, actually:

In post 1677, Frozen Angel wrote:They claimed they can turn in to an evil 3p but they are town otherwise. I just said rest of their claim makes sense

In post 1661, Frozen Angel wrote:
In post 1659, jjh927 wrote:Role wise, one of mastina's picks was that she never fakeclaims as scum in a game with post restrictions. Have you considered she may be unable to claim her real role?
yes. its just impractical post restriction to apply. none of us are technically allowed to claim our role just paraphrase it. Its so depends on personal judgement whats close enough to be failing such post restrictions

in additioneven then I believe what she claimed has some sort of truth in it (and we saw some sort of truth in it with her vote for example and we know her post restriction) so it cant be a completely fake claim. so we can conclude that she is not restricted from claiming her role. ofc she is restricted from scum claiming if she is scum that's against her wincon

In post 1658, Frozen Angel wrote:Mastina is certainly not scum by role claim and that role can legit exist the way they described. making up that claim when we were on page 1 of game is absolutely ridiculously hard. So I believe most of their claim at least is truth and if they are scum is just minor differences - like for example they are already a werewolf who has the post restriction to say they are town etc. But lack of kills (specially in even nights that they claimed warewfol can) just suggests if they are a serial killer, they been behaving?

so yeah role wise it still makes no sense for the slot to be scum while it has a possibility still

play wise they been pushing poky and it felt genuine, their reads and hunts been also genuine, like they guessed shiro was llds masonizer in day 1 and started trying to convince rest of us that shiro is town cause of it cause she felt that's what lld was crumbling. Now that would be such a random angle to pursue for a scum mastina out of nowhere to use meta and hints to make such a far fetched read that they were convinced at the time to push

stuff like that gave an early town read on the slot for me - at least I could see it having a town mindset.

I will however note this:

If I were scum I would have no reason to refuse a town player upgrading my role.

While I was not the first to point out how upgrading me might be risky, I was quick to agree, and elaborate on it, and insist on it, and reinforce it. I have rejected a role upgrade because I don't think it's a good idea to upgrade a town player who can potentially become scum, since there's too much of a risk that the upgrade

does

forcefully change my alignment.

If I were scum I would not be afraid of an alignment change.

I hate playing scum; literally any chance at a change in alignment is a chance that I will take.

Okay so these are all of the

points

that I wanted to make, but I admit that I sadly did not get to properly edit them. I didn't give tl;dr summaries of them, properly back all of them up, etc.

But I've spent ~4 hours writing this post and I

do

work tomorrow so my options are to either not post it, be late going to bed (and thus, late tomorrow), or post it as-is; I'll opt for the last and make any tl;dr summaries, additional backing, clarification, etc. as needed.

Enchant · Post Post #1731 (ISO) » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:41 pm

Can i not read this big post of selfpraise

Yume · Post Post #1732 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:05 am

Anyone who doesn't read mastina posts can eat sand. Because you know how you determine that someone is town or scum? You read their posts. Either that or you use mechanics to help you. Now, I do the latter, mostly. But the rest of you read posts and determine your readings that way.

I have finally come up with a readlist.

Possible scum: jjh*, mastina*, Roden.

*mostly because while I don't think it's the case, it's still possible.

Everyone else could be town.

P.S: By the way, mastina, you should probably not scumread me anymore.

Ginngie · Post Post #1733 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:06 am

Imma sneak through here and drop a lil vote count

Enchant · Post Post #1734 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:07 am

I ate sand.

It's tasty actually.

Yume · Post Post #1735 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:10 am

Okay.

Vote: Enchant

Ginngie · Post Post #1736 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:55 am

4.03 Votecount

Roden - 3 (Shiro, Frozen Angel, Enchant) E - 3

mastina - 2 (jjh927, PookyTheMagicalBear) E - 4

jjh927 - 1 (mastina) E - 5

Enchant - 1 (Yume) E - 5

Not Voting - 3 (Four score and 200 something years ago)

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to voted out.

At deadline,

Captain America

would be voted out.

Day 4 will last 14 days and deadline will be Thursday, April 28th @ 10 PM EST: (expired on 2022-04-28 21:00:00)

Todays Challenge is: Day 4 Challenge: Every 2nd post, use the same total amount of words plus 1 from your previous 2nd post. (e.g. Post 2: Hi, Post 4: Hello World!, Post 6: I am Groot!)

-your first post of each day must state if you'd like to participate using the bold tag.
-your first post of each day counts towards your post total. So bold tag is Post 1, then post 2-3, then post 4 is the important one.
-You may give up 0.25 xp to retry the challenge if either you fail to bold tag the first post or fail the challenge outright.
-Retries are limited to once per Day phase.

Spoiler: Players still in Challenge

Frozen Angel · Post Post #1737 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:17 am

In post 1728, Roden wrote:
In post 1721, Shiro wrote:
In post 1006, Roden wrote:Sneak hood just cracked wide open...I may have a hard guilty.
Wasn't even hard to find.
I said "may" because at the time Dunn was freaking out in the hood when I asked if he was town-aligned, which Angel admitted happened. I made it clear it wasn't a guilty when we explained the situation after that post. Why are you ignoring that?

In post 1725, Shiro wrote:
In post 1109, Roden wrote:. I said vampires aren't town-aligned, that's it
I mean roden are you even trying?

In post 1726, Shiro wrote:You said specifically that vampires aren't town.
Not town-aligned =/= guilty. I asked Dunn multiple times if he could town side. Why are you ignoring that as well?

He flipped town you were saying he is not town

This simply proves everything about what you did yesterday was an act. and you're still acting. You were acting like you're sorting him between good 3p, evil 3p and group scum. You were not cause you never had this information that he is not town. In fact you were sure that he is, but you wanted to make everyone including me think that you're sorting that slot after you slipped and made your wincon obvious to us.

Even if he would flip survivor no one would even question you. But

he flipped town and he was vigged. You outright said he isn't town and that he cant get vigged.

You don't want to call it a guilty call it whatever you want. Semantics doesn't matter. What matters is you're proven sabotage and anti-town play that you're not even admitting that you lied there and to explain why. You say you lied and then in same post you blame the game to be bastard and you to had wrong info. In the same freaking post...

jjh927 · Post Post #1738 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:43 am

Mastina, the issue is, beyond anything else, that you have made a very large post there with a collection of things you are saying you have never done before as scum, while fully aware you have never done them as scum. Your only reason to scumread me appears to be that I should know better than to scumread you when frankly your last scumgame was one I had no idea how to identify. I understand how your logic works- I also believe that when you are town you can understand when, if you play the logic out and it is wrong, and this is pointed out to you, then you can adjust and realise that.

You can have time though. You are clearly trying, which is a lot more than I can say for Roden, who still refuses to restate the information he got about vampires. It is possible I think too much of your play. Ultimately you haven't trully aligned with me on anything this game, and more importantly you haven't listened to me. At all. In a game I know my reads have been solid. It doean't make sense to me how I can tell you that Shiro and Yume are beyond a doubt town to me and you can still just vig Yume. I expected on day 1 that you'd be at your best as either alignmemt, so looked to judge your alignment based on game impact, and your game impact has been clearly antitown from my perspective. I might have relaxed that if I'd continued to get an updated picture of your mental state, but I only read your blog at the start.

VOTE: Roden

Yume · Post Post #1739 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:58 am

VOTE: Roden

PookyTheMagicalBear · Post Post #1740 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:12 am

she can say that as mafia too

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=88401

it is nai for her.

in fact you can always say you don't do ____ as mafia before.

because the number of things you have done as mafia is set limited.

and you can always step outside the set of things you have done before.

PookyTheMagicalBear · Post Post #1741 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:14 am

In post 1730, mastina wrote:2: I have NEVER treated scumbuddies the way I have treated Gypyx/Dwlee this game.

so what

why cant you have a new way to treat scumbuddies.

in fact wouldn't it be game throwing if you are to treat scumbuddies the same way game after game

PookyTheMagicalBear · Post Post #1742 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:16 am

I am not reading and refuting all of this.

unvoting mastina is silly and you will regret flipping Roden.

jjh927 · Post Post #1743 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:22 am

Quite possibly, but my experience with town roden indicated to me that he'd probably be willing to humour me and state the info he got rather than refusing non-stop

jjh927 · Post Post #1744 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:30 am

Mastina's towncase on herself is kinda pointless because nothing she has done is out of the range of things she could do as scum, and she is aware of all the meta stuff so nothing is a 'tell'. Her play has been recognisably anti-town and mechanically the exp stuff has been entirely transparent but has had 0 impact whatsoever, so it's very weak that she is using this to say she is town when it's a mechanic that is mostly transparent anyway.

Yume · Post Post #1745 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:44 am

Could someone also answer why I am still alive despite the vigs? I don't see anyone saying anything on that front.

Titus · Post Post #1746 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:45 am

In post 1745, Yume wrote:Could someone also answer why I am still alive despite the vigs? I don't see anyone saying anything on that front.

Why would a vig shoot you?

Yume · Post Post #1747 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:47 am

In post 1746, Titus wrote:
In post 1745, Yume wrote:Could someone also answer why I am still alive despite the vigs? I don't see anyone saying anything on that front.
Why would a vig shoot you?

Because they did. They said they did. Multiple times in fact.

jjh927 · Post Post #1748 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:50 am

Great question

Mastina claims to have vigged her n2
Roden claims to have vigged her n3

I got Shiro to protect her n2 in case she got vigged but there's no explanation for her survival in night 3

Yume · Post Post #1749 (ISO) » Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:55 am

Roden could be lying about that shot. Also, check the PT.