Newbie 1361: The Ninja Council (Game Over)

[JasonWazza]

Vote Count 1.6

[3] Mr Bungle: Pirate Mollie, FLLhawk, David Jones,
[2] NicCage: Nachomamma8, leviathan93,
[1] Borno: mrbungle,

Not Voting: gene1991, borno, NicCage,

Deadline: (expired on 2013-05-06 16:20:13)

[NicCage]

hey borno, what seems off about mrbungle's posts?
Is activity the primary reason for your reads?

You should probably explain things more

[David Jones]

He's null to me. Post #47's point 1 is just sheeping the opinion that others have already stated in the game, but point 2 is interesting though it isn't strong scumhunting.
His read on you starting in #99 looks like his suspicion on you starts with you dicking around, which could easily be a newb town reaction.

He's difficult to read though, I'd like to hear more explanation of his case on you and why he thinks those things are scummy.

-you voted for Pirate who initially seemed scummy then he came up with a strong come back,..argued with him for a while in vain ,realized couldn't win called him town,
-voted brono to make him talk didn't work out
-a little self vote monologue
-cleared gene bcos he is a newbie and acted paranoid
-accused FFLHawk for a while but not really voting for him iirc
-voted for nic bcos no posts from him
-then completely think levi is scum,said stuffs like reeks of scum guilt , even asked pirate and FFLhawk to push levi's vote , didn't workout again
-levi comes and vots nic and so does Naccho
-suddenly you take levi's word for it ,accepts its his play style and vote nic to get him closer to majority

David, if you thought that pirate mollie looked scummy at the beginning of the game, does that mean that you initially thought mrbungle's case was onto something?
Do you think there is a problem with mrbungle's first vote on me?
Why would mrbungle ask me to unvote if his goal was to get me closer to majority?

Also mrbungle, if you could answer why you wanted me to unvote rather than doing it yourself.

ninja'd, refusing to read before posting

-well i viewed the pirate vs mrbungle thing in two angles
1.pirate's post was weird but not suspicious enough to vote for her or seriously accuse her for that but i made a mental note to keep an eye on her further post in days to come
2.mrbungles voting pirate for that and actually building a case out of nothing against pirate was scummy to me...and i didn't think his case would have gone very far

-his voting for you was unnecessary and counterproductive ....i've seen some self voters in other forums but it was never an strong indication of being scum
it was simple attention whoring and the best way in my opinion to handle it would have been to ignored your self vote and made you discuss about other players rather than asking you why you self voted

-he asked to unvote yourself and unvoted you only after i mentioned that point ....not of his own mind iirc

i posted your activity summary bcos of the way you went about doing those things .... you were active for the sake of being active ..you voted for every players and ended up no better than you were before voting them which in my opinion you were doing all this to make others think you are scum hunting but in reality you were just pretending and creating more confusion than get reads

honestly tell me what your view on each player before and after you confronted and voted them... it didnt change other than for pirate iirc

Then you're misinterpreting a lot of what I'm doing. Sometimes when I question or tunnel a player, I'm not actually trying to convince anyone to lynch them. I'm doing it so that I can get a read on them. You may not like how crazy and emotional it gets every now and then, but sometimes people need to be pushed to their emotional limit so that their true motivations shine through. So once again... all the posturing and grand-standing is not always an attempt to get other people to agree with me. It's often an attempt to incite a true and heart-felt response from someone so that I can get a better idea of what they really think and what their motivations are.

As to your question, you're gonna have to ask specific players about specific changes of reads. If I were to just list them all in one post that'd take at least an hour or two to write.

ok what was your mindset about levi before and after your confrontation with him

[mrbungle]

"-his voting for you was unnecessary and counterproductive ....i've seen some self voters in other forums but it was never an strong indication of being scum
it was simple attention whoring and the best way in my opinion to handle it would have been to ignored your self vote and made you discuss about other players rather than asking you why you self voted"

what are you talking about? are you talking about the start of the game? i didn't vote nic cage at that point, i actually gave a town read on him early on. i voted him later on in the game but nowhere did I mention anything about self voting..... what are you guys talking about?

"ok what was your mindset about levi before and after your confrontation with him"

first that he was hella scummy. all he had talked about was policy and self voting and stuff. just a ton of null play where he wouldn't comment on anything important. then he came into the thread and posted. after that, I still thought he was scummy but at least he had begun to contribute so I unvoted him. he was still scummy but not as scummy as others so I focused my attention elsewhere (on nic cage for example)

[mrbungle]

-his voting for you was unnecessary and counterproductive ....i've seen some self voters in other forums but it was never an strong indication of being scum
it was simple attention whoring and the best way in my opinion to handle it would have been to ignored your self vote and made you discuss about other players rather than asking you why you self voted

is this the vote you're talking about?

VOTE: NicCage

because I don't like self-votes.

because err.... that wasn't me

[NicCage]

I'm confused too and have some follow-up questions.

Mrbungle voted me based on activity, not on self-voting, and I was wondering if you disagreed with that.

Also that doesn't answer why he would ask me to unvote, as asking me to unvote would bring me further from the majority. So what was his motivation for doing that?

I think I see where you are coming from, though I disagree with you.

[mrbungle]

nic it's not hard, i dont see how you dont understand

i wanted you to be lynched. i didn't want you to be lynched yet. when i originally asked, borno hadn't made his 2nd post yet. there was no reason to lynch anyone just yet.

i didn't just do it myself, because I didn't want you to feel less pressure to get in the thread and start posting. I was worried that someone might hammer you, but I didn't think it was likely so I wasn't too concerned about it. that brings me to my next point......

you being at L-1 meant you were close to being hammered. this is something I didn't want to happen just yet, but I wouldn't really have minded TOO MUCH if it happened and I didn't think it was very likely. the major issue, the main reason why I wanted you to unvote yourself, is because whatever you flip, if one of the voters was yourself, then town has 1 less piece of information to be learned from the lynch.

I mainly wanted you to unvote because I'd prefer if someone is getting lynched that we get as much information as possible from their voters.... no matter what alignment the lynchee flips. You contributing towards your own lynch removes some of that information.

tldr: while i was somewhat concerned that you might get lynched too early, i was more concerned about how a self vote contributing towards a lynch is terrible for town

[NicCage]

Chill son, I was talking to David and I was questioning why he believes you voted me to bring me closer to majority when you were asking me to unvote at the same time.

[David Jones]

"-his voting for you was unnecessary and counterproductive ....i've seen some self voters in other forums but it was never an strong indication of being scum
it was simple attention whoring and the best way in my opinion to handle it would have been to ignored your self vote and made you discuss about other players rather than asking you why you self voted"

what are you talking about? are you talking about the start of the game? i didn't vote nic cage at that point, i actually gave a town read on him early on. i voted him later on in the game but nowhere did I mention anything about self voting..... what are you guys talking about?

"ok what was your mindset about levi before and after your confrontation with him"

first that he was hella scummy. all he had talked about was policy and self voting and stuff. just a ton of null play where he wouldn't comment on anything important. then he came into the thread and posted. after that, I still thought he was scummy but at least he had begun to contribute so I unvoted him. he was still scummy but not as scummy as others so I focused my attention elsewhere (on nic cage for example)

I'm confused too and have some follow-up questions.

Mrbungle voted me based on activity, not on self-voting, and I was wondering if you disagreed with that.

Also that doesn't answer why he would ask me to unvote, as asking me to unvote would bring me further from the majority. So what was his motivation for doing that?

I think I see where you are coming from, though I disagree with you.

ok that was mistake on my part ....i misinterpreted mrbungle voted for you based on you selfvoting rather than inactivity

@mrbungle i did not mistook you for Hawk's post .... i was only referring to your vote on nic after naccho and levi voted for nic
ok i've seen your read on levi now what is your mind set about me after this confrontation

@nic
-well voting for being inactive is not a best idea ...but its not as bad as voting bcos of self voting ...in a 20+ day game atleast 1 post per day is a must and if someone is not finding 10 min in 24hrs to post 1 time in a day means either that player is not interested or avoiding confrontation
but mrbungel voted for at such a time that there were already 3 votes on you(including yours) ....thats more than enough to make anyone talk where 5 vote is majority
so his 4th vote was unnecessary and a bit scummy

-he would ask you to remove your selfvote bcos not doing so and not removing his vote would further incriminate him esp after i pointed that out
lets say he doesn't mentions it and you are also not very keen abt it ...and someone vote for you following him its a 5 vote majority you would been lynched and incase you flip town
then the next day bungle and the last to vote will be on the line of fire bcos of tilting the vote wagon on you
so to avoid such a situation he might have gracefully asked you to unvote and he himself unvoted

[FLLhawk]

@mrbungle and NicCage:

The reason I looked at mrbungle's gene read is the following. I disagreed with the reasoning for considering gene town at that point in the game because I thought mrbungle had mischaracterized gene. Thus, it looked like he had fabricated a town read (which would fall in line with scum knowing who town are) and I was interested in seeing what he would say if I brought it up. I didn't make a big deal about it (our discussion lasted all of three posts from me) because it looked like a dead end. The only reason I have discussed it since is because others have brought it up.

FLLhawk, what is your read on nic cage?

I have a scum lean on him. Since reappearing he has asked some solid questions, but there seems to be a lot of fence sitting in his statements about people and their play. Look at post 167.
- Levi's list could be scummy, but because mrbungle requested reads, it's not particularly scummy.
- Doesn't like pirate mollie's reaction to mrbungle's case, but it could be playstyle.
- FLLhawk's argument with mrbungle looks like FLLhawk pushing mrbungle based on an unimportant point. But maybe it's nothing, because mrbungle encouraged it.
- His reaction to the FLLhawk/mrbungle paranoia discussion is: I can see where mrbungle is coming from, but he isn't exactly right.
- In response to David Jones and his suspicion of mrbungle: I think I see where you are coming from, though I disagree with you (post 180).

In each of the first three he presents something that, but then gives a reason it could be town right after. As far as I can tell, these make up the meat if Nic's reads. In the last two points he disagrees with a statement, but is careful not to draw anyone's ire. It reads too careful to me.

My other scum read at the moment is borno for refusing to commit to his scum reads by voting, even after I followed up on this.

[pirate mollie]

"only mafia have to push their agenda and try to manipulate the town"

this is one of the dumbest things in this thread so far and that's saying a lot

you do realize that town have an agenda? and that town's agenda is to lynch scum? and that in order to lynch scum, you have to get scumreads? and that in order to get scumreads, you cant just sit on your ass all game long?

you just posted a summary of my filter without saying why any of those things are scummy. i'll walk you through an example

the case on pirate:

I made a case against a scumread. sure it was a weak case, but i don't fucking care because you gotta start somewhere on D1. Then I tunneled the crap out of her for awhile. Is this because I was absolutely sure that I wanted to lynch her? No! Is it because that's how I develop reads, by giving a shit and interacting with players to figure out their mindset? Yes! I reached the end of the tunnel, and decided she was town! Mission success!

And somehow that's a scummy thing to do?

Most of your other criticisms come from a similar place. They all rely on the fact that you have no idea how to find scum so you see me looking for scum, and it looks scummy to you. This goes for pretty much all of you guys that suspect me for various reasons. I'm sorry, you have your slower ways of scumhunting which take 2 weeks to play out, I have my aggressive ways. I am not going to change just because you guys think it's scummy.

BTW I think borno is an AMAZING LYNCH

1. to punish him for not playing
2. His most recent list of reads

Those reads are AWFUL. Who are the two main lynch candidates right now? mrbungle and nic cage. And look at how he reads them:

mrbungle:
"Mostly null, leaning a little scummy. Active player, however, something seems off in his posts."
nic cage:
"Mostly Null. Lurky, but has justified this. Hasn't posted many reads."

Really? He's null on the two players that everyone else seems to care the most about. Like, I dont know how he could possibly do a better job of having non-controversial opinions.

And he gives absolutely NO hint of who he wants to lynch. There's not even the slightest whiff of evidence that he cares about the lynch.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: borno

I still support the nic cage lynch, but I'd really like to see him get lynched without him self-voting. And this most recent read dump from borno is just too ridiculous to ignore.

JESUS CHRIST CAN WE LYNCH THIS SHIT ALREADY

there is not a single goddamn thing wrong with borno's reads. given the information he has at this time and his level of skill. your whole case is based , it is a good basis to work with. all you are doing in this post is a more posturing and grandstanding I mean you look to scummy to breathe.

[FLLhawk]

Given the above:

UNVOTE: mrbungle
VOTE: NicCage

[mrbungle]

i'm gonna take a break from the thread for awhile

my most up to date reads

Town: gene, pirate, davy jones, nic, and maybe leviathan

Scum: borno, fllhawk..... maybe nacho?

I don't really care to explain my town reads unless anyone has specific questions, so here are the scum reads:

Borno: He's contributed the least. His contribution was a very weak list post where he only really describes people by their activity. At the time of his post, nic cage and myslef were the two leading candidates and he had both of us at null. I find it very hard to believe that anyone in this game can have a null read on me. I can understand a townie read. I can understand a scum read. I can even understand a terrible town or a terrible scum read. But I cannot make sense of him giving me a null read, especially when he's willing to give other people more substantive reads.

FLLHawk. Many people have had him as townie throughout the game, including myself. He comes across as helpful, unbiased, and all these other nice townie traits. But it is NOT hard for scum to fake these things. IMO playing nice can often be a scumtell. He has been singularly focused on me all game, to the point of putting a bunch of effort into to arguing about one of my town reads. I asked him what the point of the argument was, and if he thought gene was scum. He didn't and gave gene a null read. So what I'm wondering is why does he care so much, and have so many alignment-related opinions about one of his null reads? Other than interactng with me his contributions have all been non alignment indicative. He talks about self voting, and no lynching, but those things are basically side issues and scum LOVE to talk about side issues because it makes it seem as if they're being productive. I have no idea what his thoughts on the game are other than that he wants to lynch me. Even in his post where he expressed that wish, he said that I'm a good townie lynch. That is NOT a townie way of thinking. He describes me as a "good vote" no matter what my alignment is. I can sympathize with him wanting to get rid of what he perceives to be a hindrance, but it looked more like he didn't really care either way about figuring out my true alignment. He just wanted me dead even if it becomes blindingly obvious that I'm town. And where is he now? Why is he not pushing for my lynch? At least pirate mollie has cared enough to make a few trolly comments to push my lynch. FLLhawk doesn't care about what my alignment is, he doesn't care about pushing his lynch, and he doesn't care about figuring out anyone else's alignments either. Fuck I may have just convinced myself to vote swtich... I'll have to think it over. Right now I definitely want one of Borno or flllhawk to hang.

Nacho: I don't know what to make of this guy. He's supposed to be some type of in-game coach from what I can tell of how newbie games are done around here, but he's done very little to set an example. He only asks questions and he's not provided us with any kind of read dump or spoken about anyone that he wants to lynch. I need to see more of him before making up my mind because all of the aforementioned issues could easily be explained by him just not having time to commit to the thread.


pre-edit: goddamn got ninjad by like everyone

[mrbungle]

"only mafia have to push their agenda and try to manipulate the town"

this is one of the dumbest things in this thread so far and that's saying a lot

you do realize that town have an agenda? and that town's agenda is to lynch scum? and that in order to lynch scum, you have to get scumreads? and that in order to get scumreads, you cant just sit on your ass all game long?

you just posted a summary of my filter without saying why any of those things are scummy. i'll walk you through an example

the case on pirate:

I made a case against a scumread. sure it was a weak case, but i don't fucking care because you gotta start somewhere on D1. Then I tunneled the crap out of her for awhile. Is this because I was absolutely sure that I wanted to lynch her? No! Is it because that's how I develop reads, by giving a shit and interacting with players to figure out their mindset? Yes! I reached the end of the tunnel, and decided she was town! Mission success!

And somehow that's a scummy thing to do?

Most of your other criticisms come from a similar place. They all rely on the fact that you have no idea how to find scum so you see me looking for scum, and it looks scummy to you. This goes for pretty much all of you guys that suspect me for various reasons. I'm sorry, you have your slower ways of scumhunting which take 2 weeks to play out, I have my aggressive ways. I am not going to change just because you guys think it's scummy.

BTW I think borno is an AMAZING LYNCH

1. to punish him for not playing
2. His most recent list of reads

Those reads are AWFUL. Who are the two main lynch candidates right now? mrbungle and nic cage. And look at how he reads them:

mrbungle:
"Mostly null, leaning a little scummy. Active player, however, something seems off in his posts."
nic cage:
"Mostly Null. Lurky, but has justified this. Hasn't posted many reads."

Really? He's null on the two players that everyone else seems to care the most about. Like, I dont know how he could possibly do a better job of having non-controversial opinions.

And he gives absolutely NO hint of who he wants to lynch. There's not even the slightest whiff of evidence that he cares about the lynch.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: borno

I still support the nic cage lynch, but I'd really like to see him get lynched without him self-voting. And this most recent read dump from borno is just too ridiculous to ignore.

JESUS CHRIST CAN WE LYNCH THIS SHIT ALREADY

there is not a single goddamn thing wrong with borno's reads. given the information he has at this time and his level of skill. your whole case is based , it is a good basis to work with. all you are doing in this post is a more posturing and grandstanding I mean you look to scummy to breathe.

nobody is taking you seriously, it's quite amusing

[pirate mollie]

hi nicky boy

have a seat:



lets talk.

I don't particularly like the way pirate mollie reacted to mrbungle's case. It could be chalked up to playstyle though, not sure.

what is it about my reaction that you do not like? are you able to articulate it?

Pirate mollie, do you really think mrbungle is scum based on his case against you?

I think bunglebonehead is scummy cos he is dropping objective scum tells. what is your experience level? it will me to know where you are at so that I can better explain what it is that I am seeing.

Something else that bothered me was FLLhawk and mrbungle's argument over bungle's gene read. It seemed like FLLhawk was concerned over a very minor point, especially since I can see where bungle was coming from, though he isn't exactly right. What this looks like to me is an attempt by FLLhawk to push mrbungle by picking at this unimportant point. However, since mrbungle encouraged the conversation it sort of muddies the waters.

mrbungle strikes me as town so far, his early case was weak, but it always looked to me like he was trying to get the game moving. Don't dick around because you're bored though, that never helps anything.

I think I already know the answer, but why the vote Nacho?
Levi, what do you think of FLLhawk's argument over mrbungle's gene townread?

[/quote]

what has bunglebonehead done that makes him seem town to you?

[mrbungle]

@mrbungle i did not mistook you for Hawk's post .... i was only referring to your vote on nic after naccho and levi voted for nic
ok i've seen your read on levi now what is your mind set about me after this confrontation

i think you are town who plays the game completely differently than I do, and that's why I was having such a hard time figuring out your alignment earlier

[pirate mollie]

hey jason will you fiz my broken tag pretty plz with sugar on top, thank you!

[mrbungle]

fllhawk, where did your scumread on mrbungle go?

[pirate mollie]

"only mafia have to push their agenda and try to manipulate the town"

this is one of the dumbest things in this thread so far and that's saying a lot

you do realize that town have an agenda? and that town's agenda is to lynch scum? and that in order to lynch scum, you have to get scumreads? and that in order to get scumreads, you cant just sit on your ass all game long?

you just posted a summary of my filter without saying why any of those things are scummy. i'll walk you through an example

the case on pirate:

I made a case against a scumread. sure it was a weak case, but i don't fucking care because you gotta start somewhere on D1. Then I tunneled the crap out of her for awhile. Is this because I was absolutely sure that I wanted to lynch her? No! Is it because that's how I develop reads, by giving a shit and interacting with players to figure out their mindset? Yes! I reached the end of the tunnel, and decided she was town! Mission success!

And somehow that's a scummy thing to do?

Most of your other criticisms come from a similar place. They all rely on the fact that you have no idea how to find scum so you see me looking for scum, and it looks scummy to you. This goes for pretty much all of you guys that suspect me for various reasons. I'm sorry, you have your slower ways of scumhunting which take 2 weeks to play out, I have my aggressive ways. I am not going to change just because you guys think it's scummy.

BTW I think borno is an AMAZING LYNCH

1. to punish him for not playing
2. His most recent list of reads

Those reads are AWFUL. Who are the two main lynch candidates right now? mrbungle and nic cage. And look at how he reads them:

mrbungle:
"Mostly null, leaning a little scummy. Active player, however, something seems off in his posts."
nic cage:
"Mostly Null. Lurky, but has justified this. Hasn't posted many reads."

Really? He's null on the two players that everyone else seems to care the most about. Like, I dont know how he could possibly do a better job of having non-controversial opinions.

And he gives absolutely NO hint of who he wants to lynch. There's not even the slightest whiff of evidence that he cares about the lynch.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: borno

I still support the nic cage lynch, but I'd really like to see him get lynched without him self-voting. And this most recent read dump from borno is just too ridiculous to ignore.

i'll again say it "only mafia have to push their agenda and manipulate the town" --i dont see how it is dumb

as town people we have to figure out who are scum but we dont have the luxury to push it as an agenda like the scum and we dont have to manipulate the other town
if you think someone is scum and if you are right then all you have to do is expose their flaw and make others realize that player is odd....after that even without manipulating or asking others to vote for the player ....others will follow you

i posted your activity summary bcos of the way you went about doing those things ....

you were active for the sake of being active ..you voted for every players and ended up no better than you were before voting them which in my opinion you were doing all this to make others think you are scum hunting but in reality you were just pretending and creating more confusion than get reads

honestly tell me what your view on each player before and after you confronted and voted them... it didnt change other than for pirate iirc

wrt the bold: do not lynch this player ever. what he outlined right there is a legitimate scumtell cos it points to scum motivation.

town wc>>>>town motivated posts

^^^ bunglebonehead has yet to demonstrate any town motivation in his posts and his logic so far has been very faulty. this is why he is scummy.

[pirate mollie]

@nic nvm, I just did a re-read of his filter and I think he's town. he just views the game entirely differently than I do so that's why I don't like his posts. I would like your read on him nonetheless.

I very much liked your recent post. Particulary your criticisms of FFLhawk who I had dubbed town early on and never really reevaluated that read. And the stuff you mentioned about our argument over gene was something that was going through my head while the conversation was happening. I didn't feel like the argument was particulary constructive and I couldn't/can't figure out why he was so motivated to pick apart a random town read I gave. The whole thing felt like he was more concerned with arguing with me rather than having a useful conversation about gene's alignment. I also don't like how he's been singularly focused on me all game. He participated in the self voting discussion, but that is not very alignment indicative. He got into it with gene about no-lynching, but that wasn't an alignment indicative conversation either. The only other instance (apart from talking to me) where he's intereacted with the thread was his questioning of borno, but I don't really give him town points for that. Borno's post was objectively bad so someone from any alignment would feel the need to question it.

FLLhawk, what is your read on nic cage?

wrt the bold: this is the only town oriented thing you have done all game

[NicCage]

- Levi's list could be scummy, but because mrbungle requested reads, it's not particularly scummy.
- Doesn't like pirate mollie's reaction to mrbungle's case, but it could be playstyle.
- FLLhawk's argument with mrbungle looks like FLLhawk pushing mrbungle based on an unimportant point. But maybe it's nothing, because mrbungle encouraged it.
- His reaction to the FLLhawk/mrbungle paranoia discussion is: I can see where mrbungle is coming from, but he isn't exactly right.
- In response to David Jones and his suspicion of mrbungle: I think I see where you are coming from, though I disagree with you (post 180).

In each of the first three he presents something that, but then gives a reason it could be town right after. As far as I can tell, these make up the meat if Nic's reads. In the last two points he disagrees with a statement, but is careful not to draw anyone's ire. It reads too careful to me.

My other scum read at the moment is borno for refusing to commit to his scum reads by voting, even after I followed up on this.

You misunderstand, I think that levi's list

is

scummy, I think overly explanatory reaction to my self-vote could go either way due to mrbungle asking him questions about it.

The purpose of the last 2 points is to explain where I stand. I believe that mrbungle's logic for townreading gene comes from a town standpoint, however he misinterpreted the meaning of gene's post, as you said. Since I don't think David is right in his read of mrbungle I disagree with him, but from his answers to my questions I think he is town.

If you think I'm being too careful I apologize, but I'm not going to push anything that I'm not sure of.

What do you think of pirate mollie tunneling mrbungle?
What is the purpose of mrbungle fabricating a read on gene?

[JasonWazza]

hey jason will you fiz my broken tag pretty plz with sugar on top, thank you!

i honestly have no idea how it's fucked up. but i will try to work it out.

EDIT: Nvm i worked it out

[NicCage]

Pirate mollie, is mrbungle the only player you have a scumread on?

[NicCage]

oh i missed your post, give me some time

[mrbungle]

@nic nvm, I just did a re-read of his filter and I think he's town. he just views the game entirely differently than I do so that's why I don't like his posts. I would like your read on him nonetheless.

I very much liked your recent post. Particulary your criticisms of FFLhawk who I had dubbed town early on and never really reevaluated that read. And the stuff you mentioned about our argument over gene was something that was going through my head while the conversation was happening. I didn't feel like the argument was particulary constructive and I couldn't/can't figure out why he was so motivated to pick apart a random town read I gave. The whole thing felt like he was more concerned with arguing with me rather than having a useful conversation about gene's alignment. I also don't like how he's been singularly focused on me all game. He participated in the self voting discussion, but that is not very alignment indicative. He got into it with gene about no-lynching, but that wasn't an alignment indicative conversation either. The only other instance (apart from talking to me) where he's intereacted with the thread was his questioning of borno, but I don't really give him town points for that. Borno's post was objectively bad so someone from any alignment would feel the need to question it.

FLLhawk, what is your read on nic cage?

wrt the bold: this is the only town oriented thing you have done all game

OK. this might help you understand.

For the sake of this argument, assume that we're both town. or at least assume that I'm town and assuming that you're town........ just assume that both of us are town and are assuming that the other is town.

You say nothing I do is town motivated.

I got into a big fight with you early on. I don't care about how weak the case was, such is the nature of page 2 cases. However, our argument convinced me that you're town. It helped me figure out your alignment. This was because I was able to take a step back from the argument itself, and try to see where you were coming from. That is something that you have FAILED to do. You have made no effort to see MY perspective.

if you're town, have I not done a town motivated thing by correctly figuring out your alignment?

You're approaching this issue like a child. You're still have poopy pants because i called you scum for shitty reasons early on and you have been unable to see past your anger. So get over it and stop being a broken record.