Mafiascum.net

In post 172, Generic wrote:And I told you 'a slow start' is a deliberately am oculus reason so you can play games when people question it or read into it.

This is a better representation of my read on Desperado! But it was not your original.

In post 164, Generic wrote:Btw. It didn't go unnoticed in your post

you throw suspicion on tammy and desperado for considering this unlike my scum game.

It's this that I keep nagging you about. Explain it. Or will you finally admit to the misrep?

In post 174, Generic wrote:My sons trampoline lesson now, so you carry on pushing a wagon even I'm endorsing and I will come back later to see what else you have come up with.

Lucky kid. I always wanted to take trampoline lessons

You sere quick in so I can drop something quick down.

I mentioned tammy and desp together, so yes I will take that one on me as a misrep. I still think your motives were deliberately ambiguous to be able to be d the arguement, but my wording first was a misrep.

And your change of opinion on empire is still inconsistent and therefore suspicious in the motives.

Toodles.

Trolling is a pretty good motive imo. I agree Empire hasn't busted out his meta-reel, but why does it matter this early? Empire isn't here, sitting on thumbs waiting for him would be scummier. I should probably read Red Wedding better, I only read you on the day you got lynched. I also don't think voting someone and encouraging bandwagoning is the best way to suck up to someone.

No but calling someone town is. Who are you more inclined to listen to, the guy you argued with who saw you as scummy or the guy telling you how town you are to him?

AtE, creates bias in the reads on cases. It's why there is no point in arguing my lynch right now, people have a perception of either arrogance at my ability, or scummy by reputation. Only when I flip town does all that wash away and my motives become sincere.

Nacho to me (opinion based on previous interactions) has a lot of suspicions when town but here he is focused on the one snd very readily clearing players as town on day 1 without reasons why. And while I keep pointing them out he keeps avoiding answering.

Feel free to vote for me shadoweh. I have warmed to you anyway, When You stopped insulting me and focused on topic you were more sane. I'm happy to admit I hit you wrong early, but early suspicion will still be valid so I will watch the game unfold from the sidelines answer how you go after today.

But put the vote down, mara and nacho are screwed when I flip town, you guys need to just not let them weasel out of it with excuses.

In post 180, Generic wrote:No but calling someone town is. Who are you more inclined to listen to, the guy you argued with who saw you as scummy or the guy telling you how town you are to him?

AtE, creates bias in the reads on cases. It's why there is no point in arguing my lynch right now, people have a perception of either arrogance at my ability, or scummy by reputation. Only when I flip town does all that wash away and my motives become sincere.

Nacho to me (opinion based on previous interactions) has a lot of suspicions when town but here he is focused on the one snd very readily clearing players as town on day 1 without reasons why. And while I keep pointing them out he keeps avoiding answering.

Feel free to vote for me shadoweh. I have warmed to you anyway, When You stopped insulting me and focused on topic you were more sane. I'm happy to admit I hit you wrong early, but early suspicion will still be valid so I will watch the game unfold from the sidelines answer how you go after today.

But put the vote down, mara and nacho are screwed when I flip town, you guys need to just not let them weasel out of it with excuses.

Doesn't this post just say "if you need to suck up to someone, use AtE" then you blatantly used it on shadoweh? or am i misreading it?

You don't need to respond to the case if you don't want to, Generic. The entire point of the exchange is to hear your side a bit more, to address some of my concerns about you. It's generally my method when dealing with fights like these to read the party I'm more confident in reading (in this case, it's Mara), extend to them a little trust if I read them as town and then make an attempt to sort out the other side. So first, my read on Marangal.

In post 25, Ms Marangal wrote:Hi Gengen!

I'm happy to announce that I'm town this time around, though can I say the same for you?

I mean, have you even touched a town PM since you've joined the site old man?

She starts out the game with a reach-out to her mentor, who I'm presuming is someone who can read her well. This is a good sign. Whenever you can read someone well, you have a certain power over them, and they have to adjust their natural play to something completely different just to dodge the instant catch-out that will come with a normal read, meaning that the resulting scum play will be awkward and less impressive than her scumgame against players that aren't familiar with her. But wait, wait:

In post 25, Ms Marangal wrote:@Nacho, I don't see anything wrong with Empire not knowing Tammy was in this game? I find nothing wrong with his reason, and I have similar thoughts to him RE Tammy. I, at the very least, expected the mod to let us know who is replacing who. I think you are reaching

She also opens up the game with a vote against me, and I have a pretty decent track record in reading her as well. Sometimes I let her dodge me as scum by ignoring her, sometimes I get false positives. But whenever I've scumread her, she's pretty much died instantly. This means I'm a threat to her, and the fact that she's reaching out to both of us right off the bat is a good sign. It's a very natural move as town; if we are town, we are the people she will connect with the easiest. If there's scum in our duo, she will be one of the first to root them out.

In post 92, Ms Marangal wrote:Every post up-til page ~10?

the naked reads, and the trolling, and random lists of reads with nothing attached to them, and me staying under the radar?

But hey, if we're gonna pretend that Mara somehow got some magical scum Role PM, then she opened up her play attacking one person who can read her. Then, when both threats link up and begin to band against her, she has a dismissive tone against the threat she didn't intend to attack; this is a strange move for Marangal scum because she NEEDS me on her side if she's going to push something like this. But instead of linking up to me, she dismisses my attacks as weak and stays focused in on the mentor who, if town, should be shredding her into pitiful little pieces by now. This tells me her conviction is genuine because it makes absolutely no fucking sense as scum.

In post 115, Ms Marangal wrote:Generic isn't town Desp and I havn't been wrong on a scum-gen Read in the 10+ games I have had with him.

In post 120, Ms Marangal wrote:as for the two consecutive votes on me, Nacho is wrong, but town and he'll eventually come to his senses and, he will eventually see that I am making sense and that I am town

Two more statements unlikely to be coming from Mara-scum. The first sets her up pretty shittily if you flip town and she has no real guarantee anyone will defend her when that happens. In the second, she's gambitting that I'll read her town this game? Yeah, she might be playing an amazing scumgame but even then I don't think that it's likely that she'd gambit on me townreading her eventually or that she somehow carried a delusion that she could make me townread her with the "he'll see what's going on if he's town". No, it's because Mara sometimes is obviously and powerfully town in every post she makes. This is one of those times.

So the first red flag comes up on you when you don't see what I'm seeing since you sure as hell don't have an excuse for reading her as scum when she so obviously is not. The second HUGE red flag comes when we start talking about meta. Marangal brings up that she hasn't called town Generic scum in all of her game with you. You do not call her out for being a liar (which would be extraordinarily easy) by referencing a game. You do not say "you're right. there's another reason why you're scum!". You call her out for making a case that isn't confirmable, for not having a good enough case and say that she's trying to say she always catches you out as scum (she didn't), and make a reference to a game where she called you scum when you were a jester to discredit her, even though you know damn well that does nothing to weaken her statement.

The third red flag is with your misreps, and how you handle being called out on them. I'm not a nitpicky guy. Hell, some of my cases in games boil down to "lynch him cuz he's scum", I have no problem with changing reads, etc. But there's a certain way that town handles misreps, and there's a certain way scum handles misreps. When I call you out on a misrep, you literally do not address them. It took me forever in order to get you to admit that you fucked up in regards to the Desperado accusation and you didn't even fully admit that when it happened. You misrepped Marangal earlier when she said she hadn't been wrong with a scumread on you in the games she's played with you. You're misrepping me when you say that I'm auto-clearing everyone I call town. You said this was your scum meta, so I'm assuming you would be extra cautious in clearing things up when these things happen, but you aren't and don't address them until I push you hard to. And then you accuse me of side-stepping when I'm clearly trying to get you to answer my question? Hypocrisy at its finest.

And now, there's this whole "Nacho and Mara are done when I flip town" shtick you keep pushing. I've had many people threaten that I would be damned after I lynched the fuck out of him. I, as scum and town, have tossed scum and town into the void as hard as I possibly could and never looked back. At the moment, your case on me is weak, your case on Mara is weak. I have concerns that are not hard to address. And not to mention it makes absolutely no sense for you to shut down when you think you have two scum pegged. But if for some ungodly reason you are town, I am telling you that you need to reach out to me, take a step back, and give me something I can work with. I can take a step back, I'm still willing to work with you, but holy shit please respond to my points on you without trying to throw dirt back. It's a convenient position to paint the people pushing you as scum and you prove that you're attempting to scumread me when your reasons start out as one thing and slowly morph to another when I call you out on your bullshit.

In post 170, Generic wrote:And for someone saying I'm dancing around points this here is laughable. You outright attack him as scum which you now claim was because the chance are he will flip scum, but having posted NOTHING but a comment that he will catch up when he can you have suddenly seen him as town.
I think you are sucking up so he votes the way you want him to.

It doesn't surprise me that you didn't pick up that the initial push on Empire was a lot of empty aggression, and it's a bit scummier that you decided to read him as scum and initially white knight me with that revelation in mind. Things that have me reading Empire as town:

In post 33, Empire wrote:Well ok, I don't give a shit if you think it's lackluster. It's the truth.

Strong response because my attack is clearly bullshit, which is already something that's unlikely to come from Empire's scumgame without any discrediting.

In post 33, Empire wrote:P-edit: Wow, Llamarble I expected you to have my back here =/

Empire town expects to be read by town by players who are familiar with him. Surprise in Llamarble reading him wrong is consistent with this belief.

In post 39, Empire wrote:Well yes and I'm pretty happy you can towninate fast without me having to troll you as a catalyst.

Question for you: Is Nacho town?

Starts sorting out Tammy and seeing if she's following the same things he is. As town, he's reaching out to someone he connects easily with. As scum, he's reaching out to his biggest threat.

Tammy also has reasons for reading Empire-town, but you missed those. If there's no reason to read him as town, why didn't you attack Tammy for doing the same thing I did?

In post 181, SXTLHGaiden wrote:

In post 180, Generic wrote:No but calling someone town is. Who are you more inclined to listen to, the guy you argued with who saw you as scummy or the guy telling you how town you are to him?

AtE, creates bias in the reads on cases. It's why there is no point in arguing my lynch right now, people have a perception of either arrogance at my ability, or scummy by reputation. Only when I flip town does all that wash away and my motives become sincere.

Nacho to me (opinion based on previous interactions) has a lot of suspicions when town but here he is focused on the one snd very readily clearing players as town on day 1 without reasons why. And while I keep pointing them out he keeps avoiding answering.

Feel free to vote for me shadoweh. I have warmed to you anyway, When You stopped insulting me and focused on topic you were more sane. I'm happy to admit I hit you wrong early, but early suspicion will still be valid so I will watch the game unfold from the sidelines answer how you go after today.

But put the vote down, mara and nacho are screwed when I flip town, you guys need to just not let them weasel out of it with excuses.

Doesn't this post just say "if you need to suck up to someone, use AtE" then you blatantly used it on shadoweh? or am i misreading it?

You mean that post where I am requesting he votes for me?

I am saying nacho is sucking up to get support for my lynch, but this was before I endorsed that I get lynched to prove my words come from a town perspective.

They can try and misrep me, lie about me and even place get out clauses for each other, but they base their premise on my arguement having an agenda, trying to twist my logic back on me.

I don't want to leave this game having accused shadoweh if scummy behaviour and then not at least reference that I thought his calmer posts were much better.

There is a simple reason I can't reference colo games, beyond you signing up to the site... I can't access it. Have applied for a password reset and nothing. So she has free reign to say what she likes there.
But she calls behaviour of mine scummy throughout every game, so it's like me calling you a lady on e a game nacho and eventually you have a sex change and I can go 'told you he was a lady, I called it'. So yes, even when town she has made at least one push on done thing I've done calling it scummy.

I liked your early comments about mara though boxing herself in which would be stupidity as scum... But there is your catch 22. You have instantly excused her no matter what I flip. And as someone who knows her so well I know she is either keen to get a scalp on me and hope to get away with it or she wants to make sure that in ms irony get the better of her if I was scum.

But either way you two are going to have a lot to do to get out of the fact I am town.

So where are these last 4 votes. The sooner you get my alignment known the sooner you can get on with lunching mara and nacho.

And as for the misreps thing. I answered you. Didn't take forever at all. Yet your misrep you sarcastically mud slung at me and then ignored it completely. So who now is avoiding?

Every thing you lay at my door you have done the same, so to tell me to prove I'm town I must respond without throwing dirt at you is the biggest hypocricy you have pulled yet.

And it seems unless you are mafia nacho you will be having to reassess your whole game, cos if this is a town nacho investigation (projecting your own actions reflected in mine) then you will be the biggest liability town have going forwards.

But you and mara are scum, so you had better hope you can work that magic of convincing the town it was all my fault (cos I doubt you will ever hold you hand up and admit a mistake, even if it wasnt deliberate and tactical) as I am still waiting in votes for me here.

At the very least, prove your worth. You say you need "4 more votes" but don't you really only need 3?
Either way, AtE is spewing from your posts, at least in my eyes. And, tbh, i'm not sure why people even use it. i mean, isn't it something people only do when grasping at straws. You make it seem like your lynch is inevitable when it is fact not. We still have nearly 2 weeks to sort this out, yet you have already resigned yourself to this fate. It's sad that a newbie like me has to tell you to stop the damn defeatist attitude. I see you have 2 options here.
1. Vote yourself.
2. Cut the crap and actually start scum hunting.

I'm going to sleep now. I hope to see your decision when I wake up.

In post 188, SXTLHGaiden wrote:At the very least, prove your worth. You say you need "4 more votes" but don't you really only need 3?
Either way, AtE is spewing from your posts, at least in my eyes. And, tbh, i'm not sure why people even use it. i mean, isn't it something people only do when grasping at straws. You make it seem like your lynch is inevitable when it is fact not. We still have nearly 2 weeks to sort this out, yet you have already resigned yourself to this fate. It's sad that a newbie like me has to tell you to stop the damn defeatist attitude. I see you have 2 options here.
1. Vote yourself.
2. Cut the crap and actually start scum hunting.

I don't vote for myself ever. I have been scum hunting, so I will just cut the crap. I've made my cases, if you really aren't going to lynch me I will read the cases made by others. But my vote on mara won't be moving unless its to nacho on current game shape.

Defeatist attitude is I have put in my work for this game, have fought and defended on 4 fronts now (peacebringer, shadoweh, mara and nacho) and as mara will testify my post attitude is rarely dictated by alignment but almost always dictated by my mood. I'm borderline autistic, have an autistic son I have to look after and several other current issues bubbling away from MS which aren't important to the game nor are they anyone's business but mine.
I'm edgy, and in one game already I allowed that to turn into nastiness. So I promised myself it wouldn't happen here so I have kept everything game relevant until now.

@ Mod. going V/LA for at least a few days.

The rest get to enjoy the game now without my input which I'm sure has been ruining things by the tone I'm receiving back.

In post 148, Generic wrote:Tammy, my entire arguement about Mara being scum has NOTHING to do with external to me factors. You clearly haven't read my case.

I have pointed out all her early comments were self aware and excusing herself with self meta. She had no case back on me, which people keep saying is fine in day 1 to toss out naked votes but she claimed she had reasons but wanted to see the reaction first (then claimed it wasn't a reaction test). Then when she gave a reason it was built on comments made AFTER the vote she made and has tried to establish me as scum based ONLY on coloholics games (which she has lied about) and her declaration she can always tell my scum game (which she later contradicted as saying she can't always).

So everything I have made my decision to push this case on has happened in this game and nowhere else. If that case isn't strong enough to convince you all she is one of the scum team then do be it, but only one of us has lied and attempted to use factors that cannot be easily back checked or require you to accept their opinion on how the other plays.

Pedit: it was to shadoweh who declared he hasn't read the case peacebringer.

But you keep distorting who I said things to pb, is that deliberate?

I only gave my experience in mafia to explain why I can give a confident guess on mafia balances. Had I played 4 games that would be not enough to judge a balance, so it reinforced my point. Desperado, all I said to him was my other scum games for him to look at, cos trying to establish meta on one game won't be enough (bearing in mind he was being loditive about my play based in that one example, so there was no gain in giving more examples).

As for the mentor thing, I think You will find she brought it up first, which I take as an AtE. So you really need to get the right facts if you are going to try to paint me a scummy.

please indicate one statement I have made where I distorted "Who" I said things to. Please. Your whole engagement has been highly reactive since mara placed a vote on you. It reads as her vote sent you in a tizzy and need to establish yourself and tear her down. It is how it reads to me. Now you even make a statement that tweaks my comments but one that has no bearing on anything I said because I have dealt with what you said, not who other then to question who you were responding to when it was not clear. Your response is as typical scum disseminating as I have seen. And your responses in defending yourself just dig a deeper hole in my opinion.

Mara- the things I react to are what I react to. The excessive explanations and details were my reaction. Now, giving out info that he is borderline autistic does explain what I was reacting to. I can see someone impaired theory of mind engaging in responses that come of to me as scummy. Yet, there is still the taking a comment and twisting it differently. So I can set that prong aside but still see the hyper-defensive tone.

new language- site culture bits that would be helpful to know
AtE stands for what specifically.
I know RVS refers to random vote but no clue what the S portion would reference.

AtE=appeal to emotion

In post 148, Generic wrote:Tammy, my entire arguement about Mara being scum has NOTHING to do with external to me factors. You clearly haven't read my case.
.

I have read your case. I've read both of them more than once, but as that's a large part of it or at least the impression I'm getting, I'm having trouble gauging either of you.

In post 150, Ms Marangal wrote:Who else do you want me to look at though?

I hear you, you're saying he's scum and he's saying you are. At this point, every single post you make to the other is just confirming what you're saying and it's not very productive nor is it helpful in gaining a read on either of you so as to know how to gauge what you're saying. At this point, people are just going to pick sides, and a lot of times that comes down to who they sympathize with more or who annoys them more, and then it's a crapshoot for if we find scum.

I'm not telling you to look at anyone in particular. Though I'd like to know your thoughts on desperado.

In post 155, Nachomamma8 wrote:

In post 131, Tammy wrote:My biggest thoughts right now though are that I want you and Mara to take a break from your slap fight. It would be one thing if it were based on in thread posts, but its on how you guys expect for each other to behave. That's fine for a little bit, but it should end now. Neither of you are going to convince anyone based on what you're doing now. It's at the point where it's causing a distraction and making it hard to get a read on either of you. So it would be super awesome if you took a break from one another and looked at other things.

This is not at ALL the right move. When two people are familiar with one another and they are fighting with each other, that is the very first thing you pay attention to and you sort that out before anything else. If you read Tierce as scum, I will focus in on your fight until you have sorted her out to the best of your ability; ignoring what is pretty much a free scum lynch if we play our cards right is the worst move possible.

I don't agree and I never said anything about ignoring it. It's become largely unproductive and a distraction. I think it shouldn't be their sole focus and I think it should be tabled. And I've seen enough people who think they know each other read each other wrong that I'm not going to go blindly on that. There is no new ground being tread, neither is budging nor are they seeing anything the other is saying as productive. It's dissolved into NO U. That's not productive or helpful at all. And I haven't been able to gauge a read on either I feel halfway decent about that would even make the start of the argument meaningful.

RVS = Random Vote Stage.

Two pages in one night, holy fuck.

In post 131, Tammy wrote:

In post 70, Generic wrote: Liking tammy though (not in that way, I'm a married man).
Tammy, what are your early thoughts?

Shadoweh and gargantua are leaning town.

Peacebringer might be scum.

I'm looking forward to when empire gets a chance to post so I can solidify my read there, but he might be town.

My biggest thoughts right now though are that I want you and Mara to take a break from your slap fight. It would be one thing if it were based on in thread posts, but its on how you guys expect for each other to behave. That's fine for a little bit, but it should end now. Neither of you are going to convince anyone based on what you're doing now. It's at the point where it's causing a distraction and making it hard to get a read on either of you. So it would be super awesome if you took a break from one another and looked at other things.

Is the shadow read meta-based?

Peace's Generic questioning looked really town to me, what's got you leaning scum there?

In post 132, Tammy wrote:

In post 102, Desperado wrote:Nacho and Tammy: This doesn't look like scumGeneric from Red Wedding, agree/disagree?

Agree for the most part, but since I was his partner I didn't really read all his posts. This back and forth feels a little different than the one he got into with metal sonic though.

I think it's probably because he didn't have any history with Metal beforehand.

In post 182, Nachomamma8 wrote:The third red flag is with your misreps, and how you handle being called out on them. I'm not a nitpicky guy. Hell, some of my cases in games boil down to "lynch him cuz he's scum", I have no problem with changing reads, etc. But there's a certain way that town handles misreps, and there's a certain way scum handles misreps. When I call you out on a misrep, you literally do not address them. It took me forever in order to get you to admit that you fucked up in regards to the Desperado accusation and you didn't even fully admit that when it happened. You misrepped Marangal earlier when she said she hadn't been wrong with a scumread on you in the games she's played with you. You're misrepping me when you say that I'm auto-clearing everyone I call town. You said this was your scum meta, so I'm assuming you would be extra cautious in clearing things up when these things happen, but you aren't and don't address them until I push you hard to. And then you accuse me of side-stepping when I'm clearly trying to get you to answer my question? Hypocrisy at its finest.

Don't you think this makes Generic more likely to be town? This looks like classic town-flail to me, and I think this game would be much, much better off if the three of you could stop being paranoid and work together.

Mara, Nacho, Generic, Peacebringer, Garantula <--That's the town block.

In post 181, SXTLHGaiden wrote:

In post 180, Generic wrote:No but calling someone town is. Who are you more inclined to listen to, the guy you argued with who saw you as scummy or the guy telling you how town you are to him?

AtE, creates bias in the reads on cases. It's why there is no point in arguing my lynch right now, people have a perception of either arrogance at my ability, or scummy by reputation. Only when I flip town does all that wash away and my motives become sincere.

Nacho to me (opinion based on previous interactions) has a lot of suspicions when town but here he is focused on the one snd very readily clearing players as town on day 1 without reasons why. And while I keep pointing them out he keeps avoiding answering.

Feel free to vote for me shadoweh. I have warmed to you anyway, When You stopped insulting me and focused on topic you were more sane. I'm happy to admit I hit you wrong early, but early suspicion will still be valid so I will watch the game unfold from the sidelines answer how you go after today.

But put the vote down, mara and nacho are screwed when I flip town, you guys need to just not let them weasel out of it with excuses.

Doesn't this post just say "if you need to suck up to someone, use AtE" then you blatantly used it on shadoweh? or am i misreading it?

In post 188, SXTLHGaiden wrote:At the very least, prove your worth. You say you need "4 more votes" but don't you really only need 3?
Either way, AtE is spewing from your posts, at least in my eyes. And, tbh, i'm not sure why people even use it. i mean, isn't it something people only do when grasping at straws. You make it seem like your lynch is inevitable when it is fact not. We still have nearly 2 weeks to sort this out, yet you have already resigned yourself to this fate. It's sad that a newbie like me has to tell you to stop the damn defeatist attitude. I see you have 2 options here.
1. Vote yourself.
2. Cut the crap and actually start scum hunting.

In post 189, SXTLHGaiden wrote:I'm going to sleep now. I hope to see your decision when I wake up.

I really hated this series of posts and I think Gaiden's reaction to Mara v Generic was the worst by far--there's no attempt to mediate or develop the situation, Gaiden just pops in at the end, yells at Generic for AtEing (why? He's having an emotional response, not alignment indicative either way in this scenario) and then baiting him to self-vote. + we still don't know his read on either of them.