In post 70, Wagon Me Pal wrote:Hello, I'm the replacement for Purplebandit. I just see a jumble of random votes in Rvs as usual, however I see a bit of scumbuddying between bjc and ika. They seem kind of defensive towards eachother
In post 91, Wagon Me Pal wrote:Wait why is Nacho scum, can you explain to me here? Also posts like "Why do you care about him" shows a bit of defensive act towards another player.
In post 104, bjc wrote:Well I will admit my vote on Nacho was weak to some extent. It was mostly to make a wagon. Same crap I've done all game (try to spark discussion). If I didn't do that, I don't think ika would have put you at L-1 unless others voted, and who knows if you would've supplied more information. Hmmm...
I will also
unvote; vote: Abott
Just sudden mood changed, why did you give up on nacho and suddenly follow the wagon? Kay, it looks like you're looking for a quick-lynch.
VOTE: bcj
In post 172, Wagon Me Pal wrote:Guys if read my post, I breadcrumbed JK for a reaction test, and bjc immediately Omgus'd me by saying i'm scum, then ika voting me. Now I'm 50% sure of ika/bjc scumbuddying.
In post 177, Wagon Me Pal wrote:Bro ika, I just replaced 2 days ago, I don't have that much content.
2 days is plenty of time to generate contnets, there have alos been plenty of posts for you to give imput on. instead so far you just repeat a bcj/ika team.
really after your reaction im more set on lynching you or nacho atm your reaction to a single vote was just flat out bad
ika - town
bjc - town
TierShift - town
Rob W - possible scum also but dunno needs more contents
Lynch Me Bro - most likly scum
emeraldemon 1 - town
RayFrost (SE) - town
AbboTT (SE) - town is nacho is scum
Nachomamma8 (IC) - high chance of scum
if someone wants me to elaborate ask. otherwise it should be apparent for the most part
Pretty sure "patronizing" means false niceness. I am very sure that I'm not being nice. If I give you the feeling that I feel superior, that's on you. I am simply confident in my ways and have had a while to think about them.
Someone losing credibility for being confident about a read with a valid case on the person that ends up in a town lynch is kinda strange to me as a concept. If the case was good, then that means the person who got lynched was scummy but not scum. Meaning the person who made the case is scumhunting at least decently well. And the fact that people followed that case means that there's potential for bandwagoning scumsos to get caught out as well as there being evidence that townies actually read the case and were impressed enough to follow it (because it's a good case with valid points). For the same townies to then turn around and be like "man person X who made that case was wrong, I don't trust that guy anymore" when it takes several people to lynch is a very hard concept for me to find myself agreeing with. It's very much "we as a group were convinced by this person, but they were wrong this time so clearly their judgment is horrible because the case itself was invalid but we went with it anyway because we like squirrels" type of thinking to me.
As a group, we decide who gets lynched. One person alone can't make the decision (at least, in most games). If someone consistently makes good cases, I'm going to take them into account equally. I won't just be like "man you make a good set of points here but because the last time you made a good set of points you were wrong I won't be listening to you cuz how can I trust you." Each case has its own value and merit, and to dismiss a good case on the basis of the group deciding to follow someone else's (clearly well written / semi-valid) ideas and not having it pan out... I really really can't get my head around it.
In post 177, Wagon Me Pal wrote:Bro ika, I just replaced 2 days ago, I don't have that much content.
Now's a good time to start putting some content out in your posts, then. Go ahead, feel free. Don't mind us, you can make content posts and scumhunt and be helpful. We won't stop you.
Ika: I don't inherently feel that lyme's posting necessarily means that he's town/scum. It's a bit too early for me to get a bead. He did a "gotcha" play which could be from either alignment, so yeah. My feelings be "waitnsea"
Pretty sure "patronizing" means false niceness. I am very sure that I'm not being nice. If I give you the feeling that I feel superior, that's on you. I am simply confident in my ways and have had a while to think about them.
Someone losing credibility for being confident about a read with a valid case on the person that ends up in a town lynch is kinda strange to me as a concept. If the case was good, then that means the person who got lynched was scummy but not scum. Meaning the person who made the case is scumhunting at least decently well. And the fact that people followed that case means that there's potential for bandwagoning scumsos to get caught out as well as there being evidence that townies actually read the case and were impressed enough to follow it (because it's a good case with valid points). For the same townies to then turn around and be like "man person X who made that case was wrong, I don't trust that guy anymore" when it takes several people to lynch is a very hard concept for me to find myself agreeing with. It's very much "we as a group were convinced by this person, but they were wrong this time so clearly their judgment is horrible because the case itself was invalid but we went with it anyway because we like squirrels" type of thinking to me.
As a group, we decide who gets lynched. One person alone can't make the decision (at least, in most games). If someone consistently makes good cases, I'm going to take them into account equally. I won't just be like "man you make a good set of points here but because the last time you made a good set of points you were wrong I won't be listening to you cuz how can I trust you." Each case has its own value and merit, and to dismiss a good case on the basis of the group deciding to follow someone else's (clearly well written / semi-valid) ideas and not having it pan out... I really really can't get my head around it.
I have had a bad expeince with ppl makign cases and have them flipping towns and then follow them again. Im just more hesitant when ppl make cases and they flip town. I do agree if they have vaild points and good reasoning, im willing to follow. But if they end up being wrong it depends how strong of a town read i had from them. If they are big town reads im willing to give them a second chance, however as i have said, I have had many games where the person who lead all the lynches was the scum. Untill i get a grasp on the player, I tend to be hesitant truly following a players leads unless if they are a pr with solid leads going on.
In post 177, Wagon Me Pal wrote:Bro ika, I just replaced 2 days ago, I don't have that much content.
Now's a good time to start putting some content out in your posts, then. Go ahead, feel free. Don't mind us, you can make content posts and scumhunt and be helpful. We won't stop you.
Ika: I don't inherently feel that lyme's posting necessarily means that he's town/scum. It's a bit too early for me to get a bead. He did a "gotcha" play which could be from either alignment, so yeah. My feelings be "waitnsea"
fair enough, i do have to ask though if we were to lynch abbott or nacho who would you chose? i feel like their flips would yeild the most info becasue of how they are butting each other.
In post 104, bjc wrote:Well I will admit my vote on Nacho was weak to some extent. It was mostly to make a wagon. Same crap I've done all game (try to spark discussion). If I didn't do that, I don't think ika would have put you at L-1 unless others voted, and who knows if you would've supplied more information. Hmmm...
I will also
unvote; vote: Abott
J
ust sudden mood changed, why did you give up on nacho and suddenly follow the wagon?
K
ay, it looks like you're looking for a quick-lynch.
VOTE: bcj
Spells out JK, come on frost, you should of seen this reaction test.
-AboTT's posts #47 and #53 do not sit well with me. In post 47 there is that "Oh look lots of content yay!" line.
-Nacho's post #98 captures what I want to say on that matter. In post 53 he continues without really adding much to the game while focusing on weaker things in the game, as Nacho posted in the linked post.
-Robw's post #54 that still has no explanation at all isn't good either.
-Here, at post #59 ED first speaks (in detail) of the perceived ika-bjc scumbuddying. Just thought I'd throw that in here, I don't have much to talk about here.
-LMB jumps out with this: #70 again with the scumbuddying stuff. I guess I can excuse this as an introductory post, but then...
-In comes LMB out of nowhere (109) I'd like to see more talk by LMB rather than just vote someone because they changed their vote.
-Moving on: ika votes AboTT promising future content on the matter in post #72, I'm curious if that ever came through (it hasn't up to post 109).
-104 my vote and the resulting sheeping claims by other. I realize ahead of time that those votes are going to draw attention.
In summary:
Up to this point both AboTT and LMB come across as scum to me.
Also,
Town
bjc (me)
RayFrost -or-
ika -or-
ED -or-
Nacho
Tier
Rob
LMB -or-
AboTT
Scum
In post 104, bjc wrote:Well I will admit my vote on Nacho was weak to some extent. It was mostly to make a wagon. Same crap I've done all game (try to spark discussion). If I didn't do that, I don't think ika would have put you at L-1 unless others voted, and who knows if you would've supplied more information. Hmmm...
I will also
unvote; vote: Abott
J
ust sudden mood changed, why did you give up on nacho and suddenly follow the wagon?
K
ay, it looks like you're looking for a quick-lynch.
VOTE: bcj
Spells out JK, come on frost, you should of seen this reaction test.
In post 104, bjc wrote:Well I will admit my vote on Nacho was weak to some extent. It was mostly to make a wagon. Same crap I've done all game (try to spark discussion). If I didn't do that, I don't think ika would have put you at L-1 unless others voted, and who knows if you would've supplied more information. Hmmm...
I will also
unvote; vote: Abott
J
ust sudden mood changed, why did you give up on nacho and suddenly follow the wagon?
K
ay, it looks like you're looking for a quick-lynch.
VOTE: bcj
Spells out JK, come on frost, you should of seen this reaction test.
..........
I would be very surprised if ANYBODY but you realized that was supposed to be a breadcrumb.
Now that htat's settled how about some actual content about recent postings and getting more reads out for us to look at and actuallyreading the thread fully which I feel you haven't
His first vote might have been random, hard to say, but switching votes definitely isn't.
so you say a second vote is never rvs?
so right now if i went like this
unvote
vote nacho
would it be a random vote or not? im askign why you care about his sudden vote switch to anohter player who is not you. if the vote was on you i could see more reasoning, but you just going "???" is offsetting
its a second vote near begining of game, why should i care?
if this was maybe mid day 1 or day 2 then i would but here i dont see anything odd. im wanting to know why you think its odd
In post 36, emeraldemon wrote:@ika
So you want to wait a few days to start scumhunting? Maybe scum will confess on their own?
To answer your question, no, I don't think people usually randomly switch votes in RVS. I don't think bjc's vote was random, I think he had a reason. I wanted to hear from him what that reason was. The fact that you're intercepting and trying to stop me from asking a very reasonable question makes me suspicious of you. Maybe you'd rather keep the fluff rolling as long as
possible.
So i am spewing fluff by asking questions? Plz tell me more about this. I did not intercept you, i merly asked you a question. these 2 post to me scream omgus. plus the next post being a vote is very oddly placed. he also already justified his reasoning. he sparked discussion. we are now following up on it. i was wondering why you care so much about his vote.
the vote is not directed at you
the vote is only the second vote on a diffrent player
your reaction to the vote switch is what is odd to me
are you saying every vote past the first vote should have justification? if that is the point i can see some vaild reasoning. what you just did though was very odd in itself you complain to me for haveing dicussion and trying to talk to you and in your very next post vote me for trying to engadge in dicussion.
In post 79, emeraldemon wrote:Hey so you wanted to see my town game right? Let's do this thing
So one thing makes me hesitate about bjc / ika scumteam: 16 it would surprise me a little for a scum to draw attention to a partner like this in the first post.
Other than that though, pretty much everything from them has felt scumteam.
The only other person who's posted anything is Abbott, but unfortunately it's all pretty null. Need more stuff from everyone.
Post 16 is why I had an early town slot on bjc, his awareness of my pregame post made me think he is town because i figured scums don't care about that stuff and would not pay attention. He was obviously aware of my pre-game post. The only other reason would be is if we were both scums, however i am not. It is possible that he is but right now its null-town coming from him atm.
In post 80, bjc wrote:How about stuff from you? What's with your vote on ika? What do you make of Robw's vote on ika?
Heres a good post, he trying to spark some discussion and trying to get reads on people here. I am starting to get irked by the big buddying of him and the votes on me. But its feels more genuine. One of the few things that makes me wonder is he wants contents from people but does not give contents of his own. I gave a good few questions for discussion but he has yet to answer them when he said he would.
In post 23, Nachomamma8 wrote:Thanks for the link!
I'm probably not going to read it; just be obviously town and we will get along just fine.
He did that last game and coasted to a win as scum
Early game reads:
emerald town: is putting himself much more in the spotlights than he did in his scumgame+feels genuine.
Ika town: really trying to hunt but well...uh walling is not necessary. Great to see someone try, though.
Not seeing much scummy intent anywhere yet but I might reread some more.
VOTE: nacho
Get out of spectator mode.
To me this is 2 prong. This gives me more confidence in emerald being town due to you having experience with him. I didn't glance at his game because I was lazy but due to biassed reasons I am considering you town and will take that emerald is town.
Your reasoning for nacho seems also valid that if he is merely coasting and seems to be doing right now. It is becoming annoying and not helpful. He seems to be trying to take a null path. I first took it as IC trying to play neutral but looking back even as an IC should not coast like he is.
In post 82, emeraldemon wrote:@bjc
I made a long post about why I voted ika (59), did you read it?
Yes, Robb W needs to come out and post.
@tiershift
Man, I really hope you are town this game. So you don't think ika and bjc are buddying?
This post gives me more confidence in you being town because of the second half thats addressed to tiershift. I do think you are sligtly stuck in the me and bjc buddying, but i am going to take it as a newbie thing. If one of us were to flip scum, then you should follow up on it. However there is also a flip-side that a scum will buddy with a strong town read to try to get them out. However I say that our "buddying" is more just general chat and discussion.
In post 83, TierShift wrote:Nah, ika is town. Just look at the total lack of self-conciousness.
As for bjc buddying, define buddying.
Bjc, you got any experience? Sure seems like you do. Why do you think emerald is scum?
Abbott, why do you say wagons are the way out of RVS, then place a lone vote?
This gives me a good town read from you, you jump right in and start asking questions and want to obviously discuss things. You are obviously a player who has a few games under your belt and knows what you are doing.
Note: I'm not one to call someone's play "bad" or call people names and pull some high-rank crap because I think that's annoying and I think people who make the "that post was so bad" kind of posts either:
-Can't properly explain what's wrong with the post
-or-
-Are 14 years old.
So why do I say this? To clarify that my use of awful was to describe how it jumped out at me, not that the substance was awful.
This post gives me a better understanding of how you play and what i should expect from you. It helps when I know what i should be expecting. Seeing how you only have 3-4 games played. You seems to have a good start. There are a few things that I do think you could improve on thoguh. But I will save that for post game
In post 85, TierShift wrote:It awfully jumps out at you, but the substance isn't awful. Why is it scummy again?
If you want a wagon, vote nacho, IC wagons are cool.
In post 85, TierShift wrote:It awfully jumps out at you, but the substance isn't awful. Why is it scummy again?
If you want a wagon, vote nacho, IC wagons are cool.
Well at the time it seemed scummy, almost OMGUS in nature but ika voted for nacho, not emeral.
Cool.
unvote; vote: nacho
this puts nacho at l-2.
VOTE: nacho
this is l-1, his coasting nature and trying to stay null at first looked like to me as an IC play but is more biassed of a reason and he should actually not be doing so and legitimately coming out to help. Also after ISOing him, his post stick out to me as scum for what they say.
ika - town
bjc - town
TierShift - town
Rob W - null
Lynch Me - null
emeraldemon - town
RayFrost (SE) - null-town
AbboTT (SE) - null-scum
Nachomamma8 (IC) - scum
In post 97, ika wrote:with those 2 post, i feel more inclined to hear from abott again
VOTE: AbboTT
my l-1 vote was more of a test to see how player reacted to a quick l-1
In post 104, bjc wrote:Well I will admit my vote on Nacho was weak to some extent. It was mostly to make a wagon. Same crap I've done all game (try to spark discussion). If I didn't do that, I don't think ika would have put you at L-1 unless others voted, and who knows if you would've supplied more information. Hmmm...
Anyway, for previously mentioned reasons (Way back before running off to my Physics discussion and Calc 2 classes...),
unvote; vote: Lynch Me Bro
Really, I don't care if people see this as more sheeping or an OMGUS vote. This is coincidence that ika voted him before me, oh well. I've laid out my reads up to post #109 and I am very happy with this vote.
His first vote might have been random, hard to say, but switching votes definitely isn't.
so you say a second vote is never rvs?
so right now if i went like this
unvote
vote nacho
would it be a random vote or not? im askign why you care about his sudden vote switch to anohter player who is not you. if the vote was on you i could see more reasoning, but you just going "???" is offsetting
its a second vote near begining of game, why should i care?
if this was maybe mid day 1 or day 2 then i would but here i dont see anything odd. im wanting to know why you think its odd
Reacted overly-defensive to an attack against bcj. Definitely trying to defend him and bcj here.
In post 36, emeraldemon wrote:@ika
So you want to wait a few days to start scumhunting? Maybe scum will confess on their own?
To answer your question, no, I don't think people usually randomly switch votes in RVS. I don't think bjc's vote was random, I think he had a reason. I wanted to hear from him what that reason was. The fact that you're intercepting and trying to stop me from asking a very reasonable question makes me suspicious of you. Maybe you'd rather keep the fluff rolling as long as
possible.
So i am spewing fluff by asking questions? Plz tell me more about this. I did not intercept you, i merly asked you a question. these 2 post to me scream omgus. plus the next post being a vote is very oddly placed. he also already justified his reasoning. he sparked discussion. we are now following up on it. i was wondering why you care so much about his vote.
the vote is not directed at you
the vote is only the second vote on a diffrent player
your reaction to the vote switch is what is odd to me
are you saying every vote past the first vote should have justification? if that is the point i can see some vaild reasoning. what you just did though was very odd in itself you complain to me for haveing dicussion and trying to talk to you and in your very next post vote me for trying to engadge in dicussion.
In post 79, emeraldemon wrote:Hey so you wanted to see my town game right? Let's do this thing
So one thing makes me hesitate about bjc / ika scumteam: 16 it would surprise me a little for a scum to draw attention to a partner like this in the first post.
Other than that though, pretty much everything from them has felt scumteam.
The only other person who's posted anything is Abbott, but unfortunately it's all pretty null. Need more stuff from everyone.
Post 16 is why I had an early town slot on bjc, his awareness of my pregame post made me think he is town because i figured scums don't care about that stuff and would not pay attention. He was obviously aware of my pre-game post. The only other reason would be is if we were both scums, however i am not. It is possible that he is but right now its null-town coming from him atm.
In post 80, bjc wrote:How about stuff from you? What's with your vote on ika? What do you make of Robw's vote on ika?
Heres a good post, he trying to spark some discussion and trying to get reads on people here. I am starting to get irked by the big buddying of him and the votes on me. But its feels more genuine. One of the few things that makes me wonder is he wants contents from people but does not give contents of his own. I gave a good few questions for discussion but he has yet to answer them when he said he would.
In post 23, Nachomamma8 wrote:Thanks for the link!
I'm probably not going to read it; just be obviously town and we will get along just fine.
He did that last game and coasted to a win as scum
Early game reads:
emerald town: is putting himself much more in the spotlights than he did in his scumgame+feels genuine.
Ika town: really trying to hunt but well...uh walling is not necessary. Great to see someone try, though.
Not seeing much scummy intent anywhere yet but I might reread some more.
VOTE: nacho
Get out of spectator mode.
To me this is 2 prong. This gives me more confidence in emerald being town due to you having experience with him. I didn't glance at his game because I was lazy but due to biassed reasons I am considering you town and will take that emerald is town.
Your reasoning for nacho seems also valid that if he is merely coasting and seems to be doing right now. It is becoming annoying and not helpful. He seems to be trying to take a null path. I first took it as IC trying to play neutral but looking back even as an IC should not coast like he is.
In post 82, emeraldemon wrote:@bjc
I made a long post about why I voted ika (59), did you read it?
Yes, Robb W needs to come out and post.
@tiershift
Man, I really hope you are town this game. So you don't think ika and bjc are buddying?
This post gives me more confidence in you being town because of the second half thats addressed to tiershift. I do think you are sligtly stuck in the me and bjc buddying, but i am going to take it as a newbie thing. If one of us were to flip scum, then you should follow up on it. However there is also a flip-side that a scum will buddy with a strong town read to try to get them out. However I say that our "buddying" is more just general chat and discussion.
In post 83, TierShift wrote:Nah, ika is town. Just look at the total lack of self-conciousness.
As for bjc buddying, define buddying.
Bjc, you got any experience? Sure seems like you do. Why do you think emerald is scum?
Abbott, why do you say wagons are the way out of RVS, then place a lone vote?
This gives me a good town read from you, you jump right in and start asking questions and want to obviously discuss things. You are obviously a player who has a few games under your belt and knows what you are doing.
Note: I'm not one to call someone's play "bad" or call people names and pull some high-rank crap because I think that's annoying and I think people who make the "that post was so bad" kind of posts either:
-Can't properly explain what's wrong with the post
-or-
-Are 14 years old.
So why do I say this? To clarify that my use of awful was to describe how it jumped out at me, not that the substance was awful.
This post gives me a better understanding of how you play and what i should expect from you. It helps when I know what i should be expecting. Seeing how you only have 3-4 games played. You seems to have a good start. There are a few things that I do think you could improve on thoguh. But I will save that for post game
In post 85, TierShift wrote:It awfully jumps out at you, but the substance isn't awful. Why is it scummy again?
If you want a wagon, vote nacho, IC wagons are cool.
In post 85, TierShift wrote:It awfully jumps out at you, but the substance isn't awful. Why is it scummy again?
If you want a wagon, vote nacho, IC wagons are cool.
Well at the time it seemed scummy, almost OMGUS in nature but ika voted for nacho, not emeral.
Cool.
unvote; vote: nacho
this puts nacho at l-2.
VOTE: nacho
this is l-1, his coasting nature and trying to stay null at first looked like to me as an IC play but is more biassed of a reason and he should actually not be doing so and legitimately coming out to help. Also after ISOing him, his post stick out to me as scum for what they say.
Putting anyone at l-1 without solid evidence and everyone else agreeing is really scummy. Perhaps waiting for your scum partner to quickhammer?
In post 97, ika wrote:with those 2 post, i feel more inclined to hear from abott again
VOTE: AbboTT
my l-1 vote was more of a test to see how player reacted to a quick l-1
Wishy-washiness of scum, ika quickly retreats when attacked by nacho. Dude by the time scum reacted, scum quickhammered.
In post 104, bjc wrote:Well I will admit my vote on Nacho was weak to some extent. It was mostly to make a wagon. Same crap I've done all game (try to spark discussion). If I didn't do that, I don't think ika would have put you at L-1 unless others voted, and who knows if you would've supplied more information. Hmmm...
I will also
unvote; vote: Abott
Follows ika's vote like a dog.
So you guys now see how ika and bcj pretty much buddied eachother the whole time, following eachother's votes and defending eachother... etc.
In post 192, bjc wrote:lol, quote wall with no commentary.
Anyway, for previously mentioned reasons (Way back before running off to my Physics discussion and Calc 2 classes...),
unvote; vote: Lynch Me Bro
Really, I don't care if people see this as more sheeping or an OMGUS vote. This is coincidence that ika voted him before me, oh well. I've laid out my reads up to post #109 and I am very happy with this vote.
Sorry, that was an accident. Again, look at this guys. Following ika every step like a dog.
I was going to vote you but had more class to go to at 12:30, and I have to make my way there at 12:00 essentially. I don't post from my Nexus often, especially not in detail. I just got home after hanging out with friends, lol. So yeah, call it whatever you want my friend. Doesn't change that I think you deserved to be lynched at this point.
I have a lot of content to analyze from post #109 to where we are now though, including some discussion between AboTT and RayFrost.
In post 195, bjc wrote:I was going to vote you but had more class to go to at 12:30, and I have to make my way there at 12:00 essentially. I don't post from my Nexus often, especially not in detail. I just got home after hanging out with friends, lol. So yeah, call it whatever you want my friend.
Doesn't change that I think you deserved to be lynched at this point.
I have a lot of content to analyze from post #109 to where we are now though, including some discussion between AboTT and RayFrost.
Really? Can a SE or IC that's not scum read my huge analysis on bjc and ika and tell me if I'm scum and ika/bcj is not.
Okay, maybe not lynched at this point but what I do mean by that is worthy of a wagon, at the very least.
BTW, I ISO'd RayFrost and still think he's town, but I think he's misguided/off on ika (OH NOES SCUMBUDDYING) because I have been in ika's place/playstyle before as town.
Maybe ika's scum and trying to sheep/buddy me because some people have cleared me as townie, but I don't think so.
bjc, unless you have seen ika's playstyle as scum as well, you have no real meta based argument to defend him with.
It's like going to a magic show and saying "I've seen the heads side of this coin, so the other side must be tails" and ignoring the possibility of a coin with heads on both sides. (Specifically a magic show because in normal society a coin usually has heads and tails whereas magic shows tend to have trickery).
Lyme, I don't think you're inherently scum right now, but I also don't find your case to be particularly convincing. I'll still appreciate votes on ika because ika is scum, but I am hardly ever a fan of trying to use connection based reasoning between people when you have absolutely zero knowledge about the alignments of the people in question. Try to make cases off of the merits of each person individually and THEN point out that, if one flips scum, then the other is likely a buddy due to connections.
I also want you to comment about things other than your case(s) against those two. What are your reads on tiershift / nacho / myself / etc? What are your opinions regarding the content from the recent pages aside from stuff about bjc / ika?
