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Post Post #175 (ISO) » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:48 pm

Post by destructor »

Either read my actual post again, or read Post 113. If you think there's something wrong with either, please let me know.

Regardless, when you voted, it did look like you completely missed or ignored the fact that pulsewidth raised the same point (without a vote) and that I'd already responded to it, even saying nothing about it after I responded immediately afterwards.
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Post Post #176 (ISO) » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:52 pm

Post by Tarhalindur »

Very well, I did not see your explanation when I looked over the thread (if you're wondering why it looked like I completely missed that post... yeah, it's because I completely missed that post).

That's a good enough explanation for me.

Unvote
for now,
FoS: Joost; FoS: spurigistan
(I will look over the thread and see if anyone else stands out - one of these two will likely recieve my vote).
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Post Post #177 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:40 am

Post by lordy »

I will not move my vote, or even reconsider, until Joost gets back in the game and replies to ooba's allegations.
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Post Post #178 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:22 am

Post by Kinetic »

Wrote this off the first time I read it because it seemed like you didn't actually address any issue, just took issue with the issue itself, and refused to say anything. Since you're "so sure" you addressed me here, I'll point out how you're wrong.
destructor wrote:
Kinetic wrote:As for Destructor, I can already see what he is doing. He's trying to set up his own defense. He's asking for everyone's air tight reason before he votes himself. Then when I don't come up scum he can say "Well I was just following you guys." Look at the subcontext of his posts. He has gone out of his way to not say I look scummy so he can point to that later.
And you're accusing others of strawmanning
you
? :roll:
Amazing amount of insight here. I never realized sarcasm was an option. I'll take this into advisement.
destructor wrote:
Kinetic wrote:People who continue to strawman me: Yes. I think name claim is a good idea, but since no one actually wants to discuss the merits of it and just paint me as scummy and let that bias their views on my ideas I have no choice but to let it drop for now. I'm pretty sure this would have helped the town immensely, but too many people are not doing anything but what I call the "Parrot Effect". They repeat, throw accusations, but then don't add anything to the conversation. Then if they are called upon this later they just say, "Well I was just listening to him, its not my fault".
Do you realise how narrow-minded you're being? Can you not see that you believing this as a good idea doesn't make it true and that others' opinions are equally valid? Someone having an opposing opinion to you doesn't make them scum. Why should we 'add anything to the conversation' if we feel there is nothing to add? It's not like everyone can be expected to have a unique view on everything.
This is what bothered me the most. You call me narrow minded, but then when you throw my argument BACK IN MY FACE. WTF?

That is EXACTLY what I was saying. People are calling name claim scummy, even though I feel it would have been a valid strategy. But all everyone against name claim was doing was naming a few things wrong, then calling me scummy for "even thinking it might be pro-town".

Instead of arguing for or against the merits, they painted me as scummy and then used THAT to paint name claim as scummy. That is EXACTLY what you accused me of doing, yet that was what I was arguing against. It is an unfair tactic to attack the player instead of the merits of the strategy, and that was what was happening to me. To then accuse me of that, even while I was fighting upstream against that, made me think you were not even following the game and just throw your "argument" away as complete horse manure.

And then a bunch of people piled on with the exact same reasons, calling me scummy during the whole thing. You can't honestly think that at least one of those people are scum that though they saw an opportune wagon.
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Post Post #179 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:26 am

Post by Tarhalindur »

Hmm. Joost just posted in Chess, but he didn't post here.

Let's haul out the cattle prod.
Mod: Can we have a prod on Joost?


Note: Given my preliminary analysis, my vote will likely go to Joost in a couple of days.
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Post Post #180 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:44 am

Post by ChannelDelibird »

Sorry about the complete lack of access this week, internet connections at relatives' houses were not as I had hoped. Vote count and replacement coming soon.
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Post Post #181 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:51 am

Post by joost »

I'm here, no need to prod. I'll read a response now.
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Post Post #182 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:00 am

Post by joost »

Oops typed too fast and submitted too fast too. That post made no sense.
ooba wrote:
joost Post 143 wrote:
Vote: Spurgistan

For trying to get Tarhalindur to name claim. I am in favor of mass claiming, not just have one power role claim.
This is a direct contradiction to the post he had made earlier ..
joost subject 66 wrote: I am in favour of a name claim. Just because the role as it is now is beneficial to Tar and any side he's on. Tar soft claimed on page 1 and I don't think it's very scummy to ask for more information on a role that seems very powerful. It's likely that the rest of the day will be spent on determining if Tar is scum or not and we need to focus on others too. A full claim might calm things down around him and we can move on.
Hmmm... yeah that wasn't very smart. I totally forgot I was in favor of having Tar name claim. All I can say is that I changed my mind about it after Kinetic proposed a mass name claim. This was a possibility I hadn't considered and it's better to have a mass claim than a one player claim.

I will stop advocating any name claim as of this moment as I feel it will only hurt me and hurt the town to bring it up again. I need to think some more about the bandwagon which has developed around me, I can't shake the feeling that one of the people on it is scum.

I don't feel like I have defended myself enough against the point made against me. But I'll respond to any question asked me.
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Post Post #183 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:15 pm

Post by ooba »

You didn't say anything about the second part of the post ..
The vote combined with that statement indicates to me that the only for Tar to get rid of the vote is to give up all the information on his role.
I think that it will benefit the town to find out his alignment as soon as possible,
so that we can either lynch Tar or move on to talk about others
.
You seem to be advocating the only way tar can avoid a lynch is if he give's all his role info but at the same time vote for spurg for him doing nearly the same?
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Post Post #184 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:29 pm

Post by destructor »

Tarhalindur wrote:Very well, I did not see your explanation when I looked over the thread (if you're wondering why it looked like I completely missed that post... yeah, it's because I completely missed that post).

That's a good enough explanation for me.
Well,
your
explanation isn't good enough for
me
! That is, I'm not convinced. My reply to you was
immediately
after you voted for me. I can't imagine why you would be so inattentive about the response to your own vote.

And on top of that, after thinking about your claim, I'm not convinced at all. First of all, yours seems like an unlikely pro-town role. Secondly, after watching a few of the later episodes of Season 3, there was only one character I saw that could reasonably fit your role and, again, there's
no way
he could possibly be pro-town. You may not be Mafia, but some kind of scum, for sure.

I realise there are some other things in this game I need to catch up on/address, but I felt I needed to get this out there since it's been festering away in me for a while now.

Confirm vote: Tarhalindur
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Post Post #185 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:34 pm

Post by ooba »

destructor wrote:And on top of that, after thinking about your claim, I'm not convinced at all. First of all, yours seems like an unlikely pro-town role. Secondly, after watching a few of the later episodes of Season 3, there was only one character I saw that could reasonably fit your role and, again, there's
no way
he could possibly be pro-town. You may not be Mafia, but some kind of scum, for sure.
Well I've only watched upto three-fourths of season two and i've already identified one character which seems to fit his role and that character is
surely
pro-town .. Looks like you're trying to push tar to claim here .. This combined with you not saying anything about joost at all makes me think you both might be scum together ..
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Post Post #186 (ISO) » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:45 pm

Post by destructor »

ooba wrote:Well I've only watched upto three-fourths of season two and i've already identified one character which seems to fit his role and that character is
surely
pro-town .. Looks like you're trying to push tar to claim here ..
O_o

You realise the difference between having watched "three-fouths of season two" and "later episodes of season 3" and the implications of these to the knowledge of characters in the show, right?
ooba wrote:This combined with you not saying anything about joost at all makes me think you both might be scum together ..
Fos : Destructor
What is it about my posts that lead to people not reading them? First it was a sentence, and now it's a whole paragraph.

ooba, please read this again, paying particular attention to the bolded section:
destructor in 184, yes that's right, one post above your last one wrote:
I realise there are some other things in this game I need to catch up on/address
, but I felt I needed to get this out there since it's been festering away in me for a while now.
I have a response for you, Kinetic, on the way.
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Post Post #187 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:34 am

Post by ooba »

destructor in 184, yes that's right, one post above your last one wrote:
I realise there are some other things in this game I need to catch up on/address
, but I felt I needed to get this out there since it's been festering away in me for a while now.
Ok fair enough , but this is a sentence too ..
destructor wrote:You realise the difference between having watched "three-fouths of season two" and "later episodes of season 3" and the implications of these to the knowledge of characters in the show, right?
But you could have missed out on some characters or events surrounding them.. The show is fresh in my memory as i watch about one episode per day..
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Post Post #188 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:08 am

Post by destructor »

Kinetic wrote:Wrote this off the first time I read it because it seemed like you didn't actually address any issue, just took issue with the issue itself, and refused to say anything. Since you're "so sure" you addressed me here, I'll point out how you're wrong.
It seemed to me that your issue was what I've bolded below, and so that's what I responded to. I don't know what your other issue was.
Kinetic wrote:
destructor wrote:
Kinetic wrote:As for Destructor, I can already see what he is doing. He's trying to set up his own defense. He's asking for everyone's air tight reason before he votes himself. Then when I don't come up scum he can say "Well I was just following you guys." Look at the subcontext of his posts.
He has gone out of his way to not say I look scummy so he can point to that later.
And you're accusing others of strawmanning
you
? :roll:
Amazing amount of insight here. I never realized sarcasm was an option. I'll take this into advisement.
LOL! That wasn't sarcasm. How else did you want me to respond to that other than to tell you plain and simple that you're wrong and are grossly misrepresenting or misreading my words?
Kinetic wrote:Instead of arguing for or against the merits, they painted me as scummy and then used THAT to paint name claim as scummy. That is EXACTLY what you accused me of doing, yet that was what I was arguing against.
No, I'm pretty sure the main argument has been that the name-claim is scummy and that you are scummy for promoting it. Can you point to a post that suggests otherwise?
Kinetic wrote:It is an unfair tactic to attack the player instead of the merits of the strategy, and that was what was happening to me. To then accuse me of that, even while I was fighting upstream against that, made me think you were not even following the game and just throw your "argument" away as complete horse manure.
Ok, I see where you're coming from here, but let me quote you:
Kinetic in Post 77 wrote:But the people who feel it is scummy just to discuss it or
who refuse to give there opinion are very suspicious in my eyes
.
This was essentially what I was talking about. You expressed an issue with people not wanting to discuss the name-claim and in the above quote stated that you found them suspicious. I believe the name-claim has been discussed plenty as is. In fact, most of page 4 and 5 was dedicated to this discussion. Given that it had little support from anyone but you and joost, I think it was hard-headed of you to feel so disregarded.
Kinetic wrote:And then a bunch of people piled on with the exact same reasons, calling me scummy during the whole thing. You can't honestly think that at least one of those people are scum that though they saw an opportune wagon.
I don't know if scum were on your bandwagon, but yes, I think there is a chance, and as such, I raised the point that pulsewidth and Tarhalindur misquoted me on.
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Post Post #189 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:10 am

Post by destructor »

EBWOP
destructor wrote:No, I'm pretty sure the main argument has been that the name-claim is
[anti-town]
and that you are scummy for promoting it. Can you point to a post that suggests otherwise?
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Post Post #190 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:23 am

Post by destructor »

ooba wrote:Ok fair enough , but this is a sentence too ..
O_o
Do you seriously have an issue with that? And anyway, did you 'miss' that part of my post, or conveniently ignore it?
ooba wrote:But you could have missed out on some characters or events surrounding them.. The show is fresh in my memory as i watch about one episode per day..
No, this character is pretty specific and fits with the notion of killing anyone that tries to mess with them in even the slightest way. I don't know why I didn't mention the name before. Scum would be absolutely brainless to claim this anyway.

This involves spoilers, but whatever:
Michael - a Wraith turned human turned Wraith turned human then back to a psychotic Wraith. Look him up on wikipedia (search for "Wraith characters in Stargate").
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Post Post #191 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:55 am

Post by ooba »

destructor wrote:Do you seriously have an issue with that? And anyway, did you 'miss' that part of my post, or conveniently ignore it?
I totally missed it .. (And no issue with that)
destructor wrote:No, this character is pretty specific and fits with the notion of killing anyone that tries to mess with them in even the slightest way. I don't know why I didn't mention the name before. Scum would be absolutely brainless to claim this anyway.

This involves spoilers, but whatever:
Michael - a Wraith turned human turned Wraith turned human then back to a psychotic Wraith. Look him up on wikipedia (search for "Wraith characters in Stargate").
But just because this character fits with this role does not mean
this is
the role. And i hardly think tar would have claimed if this was his role .
I do not want to mention the role i suspect . I also understand why Tar did not want to reveal his role (if his role is what i think it is) because it could possibly be used to counter-claim false claiming scum
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Post Post #192 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:33 am

Post by ChannelDelibird »

Sikario8 replaces Zephyr.
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Post Post #193 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:02 am

Post by Sikario8 »

and Sikario's here
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Post Post #194 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:50 am

Post by Gemelli »

Welcome, Sikario, and thanks for replacing in. Looking forward to your assessment of the game so far.

Regarding the whole issue of Tar's role: I think it's safe to assume that there are several SG:A show roles that could match the "Bomb" description that Tar provided, and that those roles span the pro-town and anti-town sides. Which leaves us with four broad possibilities:

(1) Tar holds a pro-town "bomb" type role
(2) Tar holds an anti-town "bomb" type role
(3) Tar holds a non-bomb pro-town role
(4) Tar holds a non-bomb anti-town role

Destructor, you seem to be arguing that you find (2) to be the most likely scenario. Can you explain your rationale?
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Post Post #195 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:54 am

Post by Sikario8 »

still reading, but I'll get to posting soon
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Post Post #196 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:17 am

Post by Jester »

Welcome to the game, lordy. And welcome back to mafiascum, I guess.
Gemelli, in his 168, wrote:a summary of the play/voting of all players
Nice post, Gemelli. I disagree with a few of your subjective impressions, though. You didn't note Zephyr's defensive 84, nor the prod apology that caused him to post 84, nor the fact that he didn't seem to actually be reading the game. And your notes on Destructor and Kinetic are mixed up. Destructor didn't FOS himself in post 112. ;) Interesting that neither Kinetic nor destructor pointed this out, though.
Kinetic, in his 178, wrote:Amazing amount of insight here. I never realized sarcasm was an option. I'll take this into advisement.
Errr... hostile much? I've finally figured out what my problem with you is, Kinetic. It isn't what you say. It's how you say it. You say stuff in such a way as to make it clear that you think anyone who disagrees with you is just stupid. I assure you that we're not, by and large. Mafiascum isn't about what you believe, or even what you can prove. It's about who you can convince that your point of view is the correct one. As long as you're playing with this hostile, condescending style, you're not going to convince anyone of your point of view.
Kinetic wrote:Instead of arguing for or against the merits, they painted me as scummy and then used THAT to paint name claim as scummy.
QFL (Quoted For Lies... is that a valid MS acronym?). My 103 was, I believe, a cogent, logical defense against this idea, and you ignored it. Others (notably Gemelli in 85, pulsewidth in 89, and spurgistan to a lesser extent in 102) also made logical arguments against your plan without becoming bitchy and emotional like you are here.

But sure, I'll play along for a minute. Who,
exactly
, and in what post,
exactly
, do you think someone painted you as scummy and used that to paint mass name claim as scummy? In the interests of giving this theory of yours a fair hearing, I'll go back and read them.
joost, in his 182, wrote:I don't feel like I have defended myself enough against the point made against me. But I'll respond to any question asked me.
How about the questions I asked you in my 150, to start? And I feel like there's a direct contradiction hiding in the first paragraph of your 182. I think you've got the timeline completely wrong. I'm gonna go back and look at the timing of those posts, because I'm sure they didn't happen in the order that you say they did.
destructor wrote:Secondly, after watching a few of the later episodes of Season 3, there was only one character I saw that could reasonably fit your role and, again, there's no way he could possibly be pro-town. You may not be Mafia, but some kind of scum, for sure.
Huh, interesting! I don't suppose you'd be willing to name that character, would you, destructor? The only character I could think of that fit Tarhalindur's claimed role would count as pro-town.

And welcome Sikario8. Hope you're a better player than your predecessor. ;)
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Post Post #197 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:18 am

Post by ooba »

Jester wrote: I don't suppose you'd be willing to name that character, would you, destructor? The only character I could think of that fit Tarhalindur's claimed role would count as pro-town.
Lol he's already done it in post 190 ..
destructor wrote: No, this character is pretty specific and fits with the notion of killing anyone that tries to mess with them in even the slightest way. I don't know why I didn't mention the name before. Scum would be absolutely brainless to claim this anyway.

This involves spoilers, but whatever:
Michael - a Wraith turned human turned Wraith turned human then back to a psychotic Wraith. Look him up on wikipedia (search for "Wraith characters in Stargate").
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Post Post #198 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:28 am

Post by Jester »

ooba wrote:Lol he's already done it in post 190 ..
Ah, so he did. I completely missed that in the argument back and forth between the two of you. You guys just kept going back and forth over the same ground, over and over... :roll:

And Michael, huh? I'll have to think about that one. I don't think I buy it. Doesn't seem to fit the Tar's claimed powers.
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Post Post #199 (ISO) » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:51 am

Post by Gemelli »

Jester wrote:Nice post, Gemelli. I disagree with a few of your subjective impressions, though.
Yeah, it was a sloppy summary. I was mostly looking at the game mechanic-level summary coming out of the Mafia Thread Distillery, and filling in details that I remembered off the top of my head. I originally wanted to go back and read through the entire thread, filling in details as I went along. I then decided not to, on the grounds that (A) reading peoples' reactions to a half-assed summary would be good grounds for discussion, and (B) I am a deeply lazy person.

The fact that I got some things wrong even at the summary level, though, is embarrassing. Thanks for pointing those out.
Jester wrote:And Michael, huh? I'll have to think about that one. I don't think I buy it. Doesn't seem to fit the Tar's claimed powers.
Personally, I don't buy it for reasons that are completely unrelated to how the role is defined on the show.

What rationale would an anti-town "bomb" have for revealing that aspect of his role? Wouldn't an anti-town player want a member of an opposing faction to find out about the bomb effect the hard way? (Since scum can communicate at night, there would be no risk of having his scummates affected by the role.)

I also find it unlikely that Tar is a pro-town player who has chosen to lie about his role. I can't imagine why a pro-town player would want to do something like that on Page 1 of a game.

I'm left believing that Tar is either a pro-town "bomb" role, or an anti-town role that really, really doesn't want to be investigated :) I don't think that either of those situations is significantly more likely than the other at this point. But I am anxious to hear destructor's response to the question I posed for him in my last post. The idea of an anti-town bomb Tar just doesn't add up for me, and that seems to be a driving reason for destructor's vote.
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