Excalibur [Endgame]

[SirCakez]

prelude to this is I'm not really gonna engage the mechanics discussion this game b/c I suck at it and others can handle it I'm sure

A sidenote to this: I'm personally viewing the day 1 duel as basically a popularity contest. So choose wisely if you duel someone.

pls elaborate
day 1 content is plenty valid to make it more then a popularity contest

Re: LL and Jay, I think it's better overall to discuss mechanics and find out a good strategy at this stage, instead of starting with the accusations already. *Shrug*

why tho
scum will be scum regardless of if we are discussing mechanics or not

on the quick duels note - anybody who duels early should just be PLed unless there is REALLY good reason to lynch the other imo

Why are you people so convinced you can convince two scum to gladiate each other?

It will never happen. Assume you will always have one town in a Gladiate and move from there.

super wrong for obvious reasons, at least in the early game
didn't realize white flag was in effect nice

pages 3-4 are already making me glaze over not gonna lie
not really getting much readswise all this setup analysis is pretty NAI for now
onto 5-7
holy mother of p-edits

[Auro]

@Dunnstral: IF Merlin isn't coming out to confirm that Excalibur-holder is Arthur, this *confirms* to town and the holder that he isn't Arthur. I didn't mean that Merlin comes out saying "Hey he's not Arthur". He says nothing.

Sure that can happen instead, but you're saying what I said was anti-town, and I'm asking for clarifications on which part of step 3 was.

[Dunnstral]

I STRONGLY feel that if Arthur has the sword, Merlin should confirm it. NOT confirming that is anti-town.

There's no reason for Merlin to out though, we just lose a confirmed town the next night for no reason

Arthur can try shooting just like anybody else... it's a vig, not a cop, it's not absolutely critical that we make use of it's power right away

[Nancy Drew 39]

You Bold and scream I'M DUELING THIS PLAYER, Nancy.

So, that person HAS to accept then, right?

[Dunnstral]

Merlin outting when arthur already has the sword and neither are under suspicion seems pretty anti-town to me.

You Bold and scream I'M DUELING THIS PLAYER, Nancy.

So, that person HAS to accept then, right?

There's nothing about accepting, they're just dueled

[Elsa Jay]

You Bold and scream I'M DUELING THIS PLAYER, Nancy.

So, that person HAS to accept then, right?

Dang it Nancy. It's non-consensual. They get challenged anyway first come first serve.

[Nancy Drew 39]

A person simply challenges another player, that's already given.
We'll need our own consensus mechanic to unofficially *make* a gladiate to happen, if we want town to be in control of it.
That's what we were discussing a few pages ago.
One proposal is that we use HURT tags, and when majority is reached, the player gladiates another scumread. (Maybe the second-highest HURT).

Yes but how do we force any player to duel? Why can’t scum just refuse? What’s stopping them from doing this? If there is no mechanic to force duels, then I don’t know how we ever get lynches.

Just imagine the most townread player challenges a scummy player. We get to hang the scummy guy.

All it takes is for someone to challenge. We don't need both to agree, only 1.

Oh okay then. So anyone - other than Merlin - should do this, if they’re convinced they’ve found scum. Got it.

[Dunnstral]

Also, is talking heavily about mechanics anti-town in your opinion, or is it because you think scum's trying to hide behind the veil of mechanic discussion and achieve towncred through it?

Scum can hide behind mechanics discussion yes, especially when they don't make any reads

Furthermore I think your mechanics discussion contains parts that would be suboptimal at best for town to do,

[Nancy Drew 39]

Merlin outting when arthur already has the sword and neither are under suspicion seems pretty anti-town to me.

You Bold and scream I'M DUELING THIS PLAYER, Nancy.

So, that person HAS to accept then, right?

There's nothing about accepting, they're just dueled

You Bold and scream I'M DUELING THIS PLAYER, Nancy.

So, that person HAS to accept then, right?

Dang it Nancy. It's non-consensual. They get challenged anyway first come first serve.

Yeah thanks, I’ve got it now.

[Auro]

What can happen instead: If the person with the sword is suspected enough that they are likely to be gladiated, they should probably speak up about having the sword before they are gladiated

Merlin/arthus shouldn't be outting at any point during this

I mean the context I'm talking of is in the strategy where town knows who's claiming the sword.
What's the context behind what you're proposing? Arthur can't out himself, doesn't know that he's Arthur.

@Dunnstral: So you're saying there's no point to Merlin's mechanic of Arthur's knowledge -- reducing it to only Merlin!strategy depending on his knowledge that HE isn't Arthur.

I generally agree that Merlin outing himself to confirm Arthur is useless in that context. If fakeclaiming Merlin post-Arthur's outing is a strategy that scum would never adopt, you'd be correct, yeah. But the moment Merlin comes out he becomes an NK anyway.

[Auro]

Also, is talking heavily about mechanics anti-town in your opinion, or is it because you think scum's trying to hide behind the veil of mechanic discussion and achieve towncred through it?

Scum can hide behind mechanics discussion yes, especially when they don't make any reads

Furthermore I think your mechanics discussion contains parts that would be suboptimal at best for town to do,

I mean, this is why I'm asking and not laying this down as some amazing-winning-strategy and everything. I'm freely open to correction when I'm on the wrong track. Can you not see town doing this? O.o

[Auro]

Scum can hide behind mechanics discussion yes, especially when they don't make any reads

Scum can do X; doesn't mean X implies scum.
I'm wary of making strong reads at this point, especially because I'm largely unfamiliar with most players who have posted till now.
Also, you don't think engagement on mechanics discussion is useful to evaluate someone? You literally scumread me off what I was discussing, so

[SirCakez]

i'm slowly dying, around pg 6

[Auro]

why tho
scum will be scum regardless of if we are discussing mechanics or not

Reaching consensus on a plan is important.
Scum will be scum, but there's a possibility of useless fights cluttering and dominating the game, with little cohesion.
I had a feeling that town might fall to that, so I was stressing that there should be some direction town agrees on as soon as possible..

[DVa]

Oh okay then. So anyone - other than Merlin - should do this, if they’re convinced they’ve found scum. Got it.

Not unless they want to be lynched

Yolodueling is precisely what made town lose in BoR

[Dunnstral]

Scum can hide behind mechanics discussion yes, especially when they don't make any reads

Scum can do X; doesn't mean X implies scum.
I'm wary of making strong reads at this point, especially because I'm largely unfamiliar with most players who have posted till now.
Also, you don't think engagement on mechanics discussion is useful to evaluate someone? You literally scumread me off what I was discussing, so :P

OK, but I do think your actions have implied you're scum this game
You weren't asked for "strong reads", you said:

Re: LL and Jay, I think it's better overall to discuss mechanics and find out a good strategy at this stage, instead of starting with the accusations already. *Shrug*

Re: LL and Jay, I think it's better overall to discuss mechanics and find out a good strategy at this stage, instead of starting with the accusations already. *Shrug*

This is scumsided. Early interactions and reads are crucial and giving scum the time to hide behind mechanics talk to provide "content" is allowing them the luxury of coasting early.

FoS

Early interactions are crucial, but can also get ugly and cloud out any useful discussion. As long as there are no quick-duels, it's fine.

As if to give out no reads because we should be speaking only mechanically

Finally I didn't say mechanics discussion wasn't useful, just you look like scum doing it and it's also a convenient strategy if you are scum AND I don't believe us coming in and scumreading you was your purpose so I don't get why you're acting like this was part of a master plan to get reads going

Also it sounds like you're saying you can't make reads this early because you rely on meta, is that true?

[SirCakez]

I'm through pg 6 and auro has the most posts in the game by far but zero scumhunting, I don't count random questions. c'mon bro where's it at
certain other players (COUGH nancy COUGH) are guilty here too but not as badly
i don't think this is necessarily scummy but it's also not really helpful and honestly I think this massive setup discussion is gonna severely murder the motivation of the other 2/3 of the game playerlist because it's a ton of reading that is really hard to read unless you can really follow (and I couldn't, maybe I'm just an idiot tho)

that was up there for the most useless 7 pages I've ever read, at least to me. setup fiends will love it. i'm sure FG is loving it lol
i don't think i've ever read the words arthur, merlin or gladiate more before

this is gonna be one of those games i see

Every game starts with a big post count if it's a large. That's why we got 17 players.

definitely not true lol

why tho
scum will be scum regardless of if we are discussing mechanics or not

Reaching consensus on a plan is important.
Scum will be scum, but there's a possibility of useless fights cluttering and dominating the game, with little cohesion.
I had a feeling that town might fall to that, so I was stressing that there should be some direction town agrees on as soon as possible..

useless fights are gonna be more useful in the scumhunting game though

[SirCakez]

like 5 players haven't even posted yet and 3 others have single digit post counts
it's just really unnecessarily messy, if you will

[Dunnstral]

like 5 players haven't even posted yet and 3 others have single digit post counts
it's just really unnecessarily messy, if you will

icky, game just started

[Nancy Drew 39]

I STRONGLY feel that if Arthur has the sword, Merlin should confirm it. NOT confirming that is anti-town.

There's no reason for Merlin to out though, we just lose a confirmed town the next night for no reason

Arthur can try shooting just like anybody else... it's a vig, not a cop, it's not absolutely critical that we make use of it's power right away

If Merlin knows that Arthur has claimed the sword, why shouldn’t they confirm it? How does it help town if Arthur doesn’t know he’s Arthur and has the sword. Unless, you’re suggesting that anyone who has the sword must also attrmpt to vig? But since this is not a desperado role, that only results in dead townies, so having Merlin confirm Arthur after he already has the sword makes sense, doesn’t it?

Okay, you’re suggesting that Merlin wait with that knowledge? But here’s the obvious problem with that idea. How can we be certain that scum doesn’t kill Merlin BEFORE he can confirm Arthur?

[SirCakez]

like 5 players haven't even posted yet and 3 others have single digit post counts
it's just really unnecessarily messy, if you will

icky, game just started

and yet we are on page 8
that's my point

[Dunnstral]

If Merlin knows that Arthur has claimed the sword, why shouldn’t they confirm it?

Because arthur ALREADY HAS THE SWORD and all merlin confirming doing is telling him to shoot it - something that they are likely to do within 1-2 nights anyway, and even if they don't shoot it it's /just/ a vig, I think I'd rather have an additional confirmed town hidden away

[Auro]

I'm through pg 6 and auro has the most posts in the game by far but zero scumhunting, I don't count random questions. c'mon bro where's it at
certain other players (COUGH nancy COUGH) are guilty here too but not as badly
i don't think this is necessarily scummy but it's also not really helpful and honestly I think this massive setup discussion is gonna severely murder the motivation of the other 2/3 of the game playerlist because it's a ton of reading that is really hard to read unless you can really follow (and I couldn't, maybe I'm just an idiot tho)

that was up there for the most useless 7 pages I've ever read, at least to me. setup fiends will love it. i'm sure FG is loving it lol
i don't think i've ever read the words arthur, merlin or gladiate more before

What do you count as scumhunting then? I did make a cursory townread on Nancy, is that too 'random' for you too? I prefer to 'scumhunt' through engagement and questions, not outright-accusations.

I'll shut up with my attempts to figure a good strategy if town would rather just ignore it or not read it. If what you're saying is true, sure.
You see absolutely 0 utility in mechanics discussion? What if I tell you that through the process, we could come up with a consensus strategy reliant on town cohesion, and follow through to maximize town chances?

[DVa]

useless fights are gonna be more useful in the scumhunting game though

I'm blown away that you think useless fights won't kill player interest but 7 pages of opening discussion will

Gladiations immediately limit town scumhunting potential and lock the dayphase into two people. That will nuke *my* interest in the game if people start doing it, which is precisely why I want town to be aware that yolo-dueling will result in the yoloing player getting lynched every time. There is nothing more boring to me than seeing two townreads gladiate each other because one had a momentary fleeting thought that the other was scum.

Town doing shitty gladiates on other town is pretty much the foundation of the scum wincon here because the gladiation mechanic will mean that until the lynch goes through they don't have to commit to any other read on any other player and can coast--and town will want to coast too. Basically gladiations force the town to come to standstill until someone dies.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Oh okay then. So anyone - other than Merlin - should do this, if they’re convinced they’ve found scum. Got it.

Not unless they want to be lynched

Yolodueling is precisely what made town lose in BoR

Well with Nico anyway. Yes, that’s why no one should challenge anyone before we’ve got a consensus target via hurt tags.